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[QUOTE=PJR]This is hyperbolic garbage lol.[/QUOTE]
Lol, no. I've been a hardcore fan for four decades. The league is at its lowest point since pre Magic/Bird days. Exactly 2 stars in this league today. No depth. Guys like Harrison Barnes and Tristan Thompson being offered star money because the league is so weak.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]Star players don't take as many shots today, because defenses are free to key up on one guy. He'd have less points, and probably more assists. He'd still be the best player in the league.
NO 40 POINT SEASON[/QUOTE]
Harden and Westbrook just both put up 25 ppg to 27 ppg almost exclusively on free throws and drives. No mid range, post game or truly refined scoring skill. And MJ would score less? Um, OK kid. Prisoner of the moment this kid.
[QUOTE=miles berg]Lol, no. I've been a hardcore fan for four decades. The league is at its lowest point since pre Magic/Bird days. Exactly 2 stars in this league today. No depth. Guys like Harrison Barnes and Tristan Thompson being offered star money because the league is so weak.[/QUOTE]
it's definitely not at its lowest point. you've had some of the greatest performances happen within the past 10-15yrs or so:
Kobe's 81
Game 6 comeback and the most clutch shot in a Finals by Jesus
TMac's 13 in 33sec
Arguably the greatest shooters to exist...initially Ray, and now Steph Curry
Shaq as the MDE to step foot in the NBA
unprecedented 50 win seasons and consistent tenure from the Spurs to date
Lebron's 4th qtr against the Pistons
etc.
as for the money being tossed around...that's apart of the business aspect today. money is readily available with such deals like the TV rights and the players now hold the power in negotiations rather than the solely greedy owners from the "golden days". both the owners and players benefit now, a more level field of compensation.
ultimately, it seems you're just reluctant to accept the evolution of the game today :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el][B]Star players don't take as many shots today, because defenses are free to key up on one guy[/B]. He'd have less points, and probably more assists. He'd still be the best player in the league.
NO 40 POINT SEASON[/QUOTE]
:biggums:
It's almost like you dudes are completely oblivious to anything that happened in the NBA pre 2012. There are no Durant Rules or Harden Rules being run.
And KD averaged 32 PPG on 21 FGA in his last full, healthy year. That was on a team that made the WCF. Imagine if he had been on a shitty team without the 2nd best scorer in the league as a teammate. :eek:
[QUOTE]Harden and Westbrook just both put up 25 ppg to 27 ppg almost exclusively on free throws and drives. No mid range, post game or truly refined scoring skill. And MJ would score less? Um, OK kid. Prisoner of the moment this kid.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying... Westbrook and Harden leading the league in scoring (with KD out) would be like Pippen and Kukoc leading the league in scoring. :oldlol:
When Jordan averaged 37 PPG, the next closest guy was Dominique at 29 PPG. He had a full 8 PPG gap between himself and the #2 scorer in the league. Hell, even Durant had a 5 PPG gap between himself and the #2 guy Melo in his last scoring championship season.
Just because run-of-the-mill stars don't/can't do something, doesn't mean the GOAT can't either. The truly great ones always separate themselves from the pack.
I think MJ would put up about 32-34 ppg, no more no less. I do believe he could EASILY average 40 ppg if he wanted, but that wouldn't be optimal.
What I do think is that he would average a lot more assists, because MJ was basically also the GOAT at perimeter penetration. People tend to forget that MJ scored most his points on penetrations during the first 3 peat and this was with full handchecking and paint camping.
MJ today without handchecking is going to be insane to cover. Look at how Kyrie gets open all the time. Who is going to guard MJ and his speed?
MJ is going to get into the paint very easily and then it's going to be open, no one under the basket. Essentially he will make quick first step, one dribble and then two-leg takeoff from around the dotted circle in the paint.
If someone then moves over to try to help defense, he will get a lot of 'Lebron' assists.
MJ would be dunking so much it would be an even bigger show. He would probably get 3-5 dunks a game.
In short I am guessing he averages 33ppg 8apg 7rpg 3spg 1.5bpg on 50+FG%
[QUOTE=miles berg]Lol, no. I've been a hardcore fan for four decades. The league is at its lowest point since pre Magic/Bird days. Exactly 2 stars in this league today. No depth. Guys like Harrison Barnes and Tristan Thompson being offered star money because the league is so weak.[/QUOTE]
They're getting offered star money because that isn't going to be star money in a year :facepalm salary cap is going to go up by like 40%
[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Harden and Westbrook just both put up 25 ppg to 27 ppg almost exclusively on free throws and drives. No mid range, post game or truly refined scoring skill. And MJ would score less? Um, OK kid. Prisoner of the moment this kid.[/QUOTE]
Harden took 38% of his shots from 3. Westbrook chucked and pushed it in semi-transition and scored 28ppg on poor efficiency on a team without other offensive threats.
No one is scoring 40ppg in todays league. Nobody takes enough shots, because ISO scoring has lost a lot of efficiency. Good teams swing the ball, and break down the D for open shots.
It's a 3 point shooting league, and that was MJ's weakest area on offense, no?
I still say he'd be the best in the league, but he'd have to take 7-8 more shots per game than the current league leaders in shots to score 40 points, even if he had insane efficiency. He'd have to have the highest usg% of all time unless he was scoring at nearly 70 TS%. He scored 32ppg on 22fga in his highest efficiency season, and that was in the no-D, fastbreak 80's. MJ is on record as saying the zone takes away from individual stars, and we've seen that. The best stars today are the guys that share the ball more than any other time in NBA history.
MJ is the goat, but if you actually believe he'd have 70% TS or have 45% usg you're delusional.
I say MJ would have a peak season in today's league of 29ppg on 63% TS, with 7.5 apg and Dpoy defense (aka, clearly the best player in the league).
Also, people are giving Harden so much hate! He is one of the greatest passing wings I've ever seen. His ability to shoot 3's off the dribble makes his defender have to guard him closely far from the hoop, and his passing ability makes it hard to double him. This means that with his epic handle, he can essentially get past his man at will. He stretches defenses to an insane level, because the only strategy to beat him is rough fouls that don't get called, or hoping his shot is off. Last season he shot 7 3's per game, and only 51% of his makes were assisted. That means he's creating really high % looks at will.
[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]worse
this is a shooters league
the paint is clogged
PGs are the main ball dominant guys now
team flow and less isolation
less coaches willing to allow mid range game
back to the basket post up games are obsolete
jordans lack of outside shooting and unselfishness would hurt him
nobodies allowed to average 32-33ppg anymore. and jordan wants to lead the nba every year in scoring[/QUOTE]
You had a diet coke version of MJ(Wade) just put up 30ppg on 49% as recently as 6 years ago with an inferior mid-range game. Both Lebron and Wade in their peaks were 27 to 30 ppg guys without having to rely on an abundance of 3 pointers. Why would MJ be any different, when at his peak he was both an elite midrange shooter and slasher? Midrange hasn't gone anywhere, and you just had a slasher with a streaky midrange shot win the scoring title. How does any of this translate to MJ being worse off today? James fcuking Harden can average 27 ppg and he's several times worse than MJ, yet we're to believe that MJ can't tack on an extra 5 points to what Harden showed last year?
[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]You had a diet coke version of MJ(Wade) just put up 30ppg on 49% as recently as 6 years ago with an inferior mid-range game. Both Lebron and Wade in their peaks were 27 to 30 ppg guys without having to rely on an abundance of 3 pointers. Why would MJ be any different, when at his peak he was both an elite midrange shooter and slasher? Midrange hasn't gone anywhere, and you just had a slasher with a streaky midrange shot win the scoring title. How does any of this translate to MJ being worse off today? James fcuking Harden can average 27 ppg and he's several times worse than MJ, yet we're to believe that MJ can't tack on an extra 5 points to what Harden showed last year?[/QUOTE]
"several times worse than MJ"
maybe if you're talking about the full package (D)
But Harden's greatest strength is his ability to shoot 3's off the bounce, and his great floor vision. This guarantees him 1-on-1's with a defender that has to guard him at the 3 point line. He's absolutely built for this era.
Mid range and post game didn't go anywhere.....but if MJ is getting most of his points from those area's, his team is going to be playing at a pretty slow pace. No 40ppg season.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]They're getting offered star money because that isn't going to be star money in a year :facepalm salary cap is going to go up by like 40%
Harden took 38% of his shots from 3. Westbrook chucked and pushed it in semi-transition and scored 28ppg on poor efficiency on a team without other offensive threats.
No one is scoring 40ppg in todays league. Nobody takes enough shots, because ISO scoring has lost a lot of efficiency. Good teams swing the ball, and break down the D for open shots.
It's a 3 point shooting league, and that was MJ's weakest area on offense, no?
I still say he'd be the best in the league, but he'd have to take 7-8 more shots per game than the current league leaders in shots to score 40 points, even if he had insane efficiency. He'd have to have the highest usg% of all time unless he was scoring at nearly 70 TS%. He scored 32ppg on 22fga in his highest efficiency season, and that was in the no-D, fastbreak 80's. MJ is on record as saying the zone takes away from individual stars, and we've seen that. The best stars today are the guys that share the ball more than any other time in NBA history.
MJ is the goat, but if you actually believe he'd have 70% TS or have 45% usg you're delusional.
I say MJ would have a peak season in today's league of 29ppg on 63% TS, with 7.5 apg and Dpoy defense (aka, clearly the best player in the league).
Also, people are giving Harden so much hate! He is one of the greatest passing wings I've ever seen. His ability to shoot 3's off the dribble makes his defender have to guard him closely far from the hoop, and his passing ability makes it hard to double him. This means that with his epic handle, he can essentially get past his man at will. He stretches defenses to an insane level, because the only strategy to beat him is rough fouls that don't get called, or hoping his shot is off. Last season he shot 7 3's per game, and only 51% of his makes were assisted. That means he's creating really high % looks at will.[/QUOTE]
No body said anything about no 70% TS and KD just averged 32 ppg 2 season ago from December to the end of the season. No thats not his weakest area. Mj shot 40% in his first 3 peat from 3 range. The point is you don't need a 3 just like Wade didn't when he averged 30 ppg. Same way Mj still averged 30 ppg in 96 even through 3 point taken nearly doubled from 86 to 96.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]"several times worse than MJ"
maybe if you're talking about the full package (D)
But Harden's greatest strength is his ability to shoot 3's off the bounce, and his great floor vision. This guarantees him 1-on-1's with a defender that has to guard him at the 3 point line. He's absolutely built for this era.
Mid range and post game didn't go anywhere.....but if MJ is getting most of his points from those area's, his team is going to be playing at a pretty slow pace. No 40ppg season.[/QUOTE]
Even if he doesn't get 40 ppg, still can get 33-37 ppg. Harden has never averged 30 ppg and probably isn't capable. Durant did it just 2 seasons ago.
[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]You had a diet coke version of MJ(Wade) just put up 30ppg on 49% as recently as 6 years ago with an inferior mid-range game. Both Lebron and Wade in their peaks were 27 to 30 ppg guys without having to rely on an abundance of 3 pointers. Why would MJ be any different, when at his peak he was both an elite midrange shooter and slasher? Midrange hasn't gone anywhere, and you just had a slasher with a streaky midrange shot win the scoring title. How does any of this translate to MJ being worse off today? [B]James fcuking Harden can average 27 ppg and he's several times worse than MJ, yet we're to believe that MJ can't tack on an extra 5 points to what Harden showed last year?[/B][/QUOTE]
:no:
James 'Toni Kukoc' Harden = Michael Jordan.
If James Harden can't do it, it can't be done. Nevermind that a healthy Durant on a championship contender with a budding scoring champion on his squad just put up 32 PPG on 21 FGA and had a 5 PPG lead over the #2 scorer a season ago. Nevermind that Kobe and Iverson, guys who were drafted/played in Jordan's era saw a healthy surge in their PPG once the rules were modified to what they are now... those guys put up 33 and 35 PPG. Michael Jordan would buck the trend of perimeter players seeing career scoring highs across the board following the rule changes.
Michael Jordan could only score as much as this generation's Toni Kukoc.
True Story.
[QUOTE=juju151111]No body said anything about no 70% TS and KD just averged 32 ppg 2 season ago from December to the end of the season. No thats not his weakest area. [B]Mj shot 40% in his first 3 peat from 3 range.[/B] The point is you don't need a 3 just like Wade didn't when he averged 30 ppg. Same way Mj still averged 30 ppg in 96 even through 3 point taken nearly doubled from 86 to 96.[/QUOTE]
not true.
and his only good 3 point seasons with volume came with a short line.
KD is one of the GOAT scorers. scored 32 ppg on 64% TS and a league leading 33 usg%, so yeah, to score 40ppg He'd either have to lead the league in USG by a HUGE margin, or have the highest perimeter TS% from a 1st option EVER by a huge margin.
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]:no:
James 'Toni Kukoc' Harden = Michael Jordan.
If James Harden can't do it, it can't be done. Nevermind that a healthy Durant on a championship contender with a budding scoring champion on his squad just put up 32 PPG on 21 FGA and had a 5 PPG lead over the #2 scorer a season ago. Nevermind that Kobe and Iverson, guys who were drafted/played in Jordan's era saw a healthy surge in their PPG once the rules were modified to what they are now... those guys put up 33 and 35 PPG. Michael Jordan would buck the trend of perimeter players seeing career scoring highs across the board following the rule changes.
Michael Jordan could only score as much as this generation's Toni Kukoc.
True Story.[/QUOTE]
Blatant disrespect for Harden. Can't take anything you say seriously. Defenses changed slower than the rule changes. After 2008 perimeter players scoring dropped off again as teams figured out how to use defensive freedom to slow down guys like that.
poor man's Tony Allen.
:confusedshrug:
better
the answer is simple. if dwade can do what he did in 09, mj could do it a bit better. superior slasher, superior mid range, much more superior post game, better iq, and a better motor.
look at the rules too. the rules were changed to allow better penetration. and whats jordan's biggest strength? penetration.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]not true.
and his only good 3 point seasons with volume came with a short line.
KD is one of the GOAT scorers. scored 32 ppg on 64% TS and a league leading 33 usg%, so yeah, to score 40ppg He'd either have to lead the league in USG by a HUGE margin, or have the highest perimeter TS% from a 1st option EVER by a huge margin.
Blatant disrespect for Harden. Can't take anything you say seriously. Defenses changed slower than the rule changes. After 2008 perimeter players scoring dropped off again as teams figured out how to use defensive freedom to slow down guys like that.[/QUOTE]
I meant in the playoffs. He shot 38% in 91-93. No it didn't he shot 37% the first year he took alot in 90. All he has to do is take more shots then KD and keep his Ts% high. You get more fts in this era.
How did it slow down Wade in the very next season he averaged 30 ppg in 09. How did it slow down Kd in 10 when he had 30 ppg?