Jordan's help. Wow.

[QUOTE=Bankaii]

Jamison was on the 2011 team and healthy for a good portion of the season.

[/quote]
Jamison missed 25 games and he was a starter.. Mo Williams (starter) missed 50 games.. Shaq (starter) left the team.. That's 3 starters outside of Lebron that the Cavs were missing..

Then they also lost Varejao, Delonte and Zydrunas - if you know ANYTHING about the Cavs, you'd know that each of these guys were key components of the team.. The Cavs had so many injuries and departures in 2011, that they had garbage men starting for them:

[I]Alonzo Gee[/I]: started 29 games
[I]Christian Eyenga[/I]: 18 games
[I]Ryan Hollins[/I]: 16 games
[I]Daniel Gibson[/I]: 15 games
[I]Manny Harris[/I]: 15 games
[I]Jamario Moon[/I]: 13 games
[I]Samardo Samuels[/I]: 10 games


[QUOTE=Bankaii]

Jordan scored more because he shot more. I already proved this to you, I'm not doing it again.

[/QUOTE]
You've never proved anything or even tried to, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

You simply miss the point - wouldn't it be nice for Lebron to score 20% more on better efficiency????... Like, isn't that what any fan would want of their favorite player??.. Well that's what Jordan did...

Jordan simply DID MORE - just look at those stats again - Jordan scored more, on better efficiency - what else would you want him to do?... Score less, on less efficiency?... Like, your perception of this situation couldn't be dumber.


[QUOTE=Bankaii]

Grant and Pippen both had their career highs without Jordan, that's not a coincidence.

[/QUOTE]
They played at literally 98% capacity alongside Jordan - their highs alongside Jordan were essentially the same as their 1994 stats:

[I]Pippen 1992[/I]: 21.0 ppg.. 7.7 rpg.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]7.0 apg[/COLOR][/I].. 50.6 fg
[I]Pippen 1994[/I]: 22.0 ppg.. 8.7 rpg.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]5.6 apg[/COLOR][/I].. 49.1 fg

Grant's stats barely changed too - he averaged 14/10 in 1992, compared to 15/11 in 1994..

It's a testament to MJ's superior, off-ball style that Grant and Pippen could play to full capacity alongside Jordan... Compare that to Bosh, Love and Wade, whose stats crater alongside Lebron.. It's like night and day.


[QUOTE=Bankaii]

there's no plausible way to know if they could have won 55 in 1991 without MJ.

[/QUOTE]
It's dumb that anyone would think this, but I'll respond anyway.

Pippen and Grant weren't as good in 1991 as they were in 1994 - just look at the stats... Pippen wasn't even an all-star that year and he was just coming off his epic choke in 1990 ECF.. He wasn't the experienced 3-time champion that he was in 1994.

The fact that Pippen and Grant had yet to peak is enough to prove the Bulls couldn't have duplicated the success they had in 1994 when they were savvy, 3-time champions.. Like ANY team, the Bulls' journey was an accumulative one.. The gradual acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994..

MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.. Every Bulls team required MJ to be the greatest scorer ever, which proves the Bulls didn't win 55 games in 1994 because they had talented scorers - they won because of the execution, strategy, and teamwork accumulated by 3-peating with MJ.


[QUOTE=Bankaii]

This is the same copy/paste bullcrap (about MJ's heavy load he carries).

[/QUOTE]
There wasn't a single copy paste in that post - you just can't respond to it - but here are the facts about the massive load MJ carried:

1) MJ scored a higher proportion of his team's points than any player ever

2) MJ assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals - he was the team leader in assist % for both 3-peats

3) MJ played goat-level defense in addition to all-time scoring and team leading passing.


[QUOTE=Bankaii]

the 2014 Heat had the 5th best record in the league and 4th in the West

[/QUOTE]
The Heat's record puts them in the middle of the playoff pack in the West - but more importantly, they played far worse than anyone the Spurs faced in the playoffs (Mavs, Blazers, OKC)... No one who watched the colossal embarrassment in the Finals thought the Heat could beat any of those playoff teams.

Infact, the Spurs destroyed the Heat worse than ANY team has been beaten - it was a record defeat.. Again, the 2014 Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West (and I'm being generous), that fell to a lottery team in 2015 (due to injuries to Bosh/Wade).

So don't confuse the 2014 Heat going from 1st Round Western Conference equivalency to lottery in 2015, with the 1993 Bulls - the 1993 Bulls three-peated and would've beaten the 2014 Spurs, but then they fell all the way to the 2nd Round in 1994.. Can you see the difference?
.

[quote=Bankaii]

MJ shot more (apparently, his team required it to win rings)

[/quote]

[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]Efficiency at high volume - players with 25+ FGA and 45% FG [/COLOR][/SIZE]


[B]Regular Season:[/B]

Michael Jordan: 1987, 1993
Rick Barry:[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 1967, 1975
Bob McAdoo:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 1975
George Gervin:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 1982
Kobe Bryant:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 2006
Elgin Baylor:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 1963
Tiny Archibald:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 1973
Dominique:[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 1988


[B]Playoffs (10 game min):[/B]

*Michael Jordan:[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 1988, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Elgin Baylor:[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR] 1960, 1961, 1968
Bob McAdoo:[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR] 1974, 1975
George Gervin:[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] 1975, 1982
Jerry West:[COLOR="White"]............[/COLOR] 1966
Rick Barry:[COLOR="White"]............[/COLOR] 1977
Hakeem Olajuwon:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 1995
Kobe Bryant:[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR] 2007
Dominique:[COLOR="White"]............[/COLOR] 1988
Allen Iverson:[COLOR="White"].........[/COLOR] 2005
Kareem Jabbar:[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 1975


[I]* Averaged 25.1 FGA and 48.7 FG% for his playoff career[/I]


[COLOR="Navy"]Notice that Lebron is not on the list[/COLOR] - the 2015 playoffs were Lebron's first high volume playoffs and we saw what happened when the high volume (27 fga) forced him to stray from his normal diet of 3-pointers and layups - he shot an abysmal 41%.. Unfortunately, Lebron has poor efficiency at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooting, so he can't shoot well at high volume or require a double-team to PREVENT high volume.

In the Finals, he only shot 39% - it benefited the Warriors every time he shot, so they encouraged his high volume by not double-teaming.. They only double-teamed him 18 times [url=http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team]in the entire Finals[/url] (see 3rd paragraph in section on Curry for double-teaming data).. Compare that to MJ, where his efficient high volume caused teams to double-team him 10+ times in a single quarter, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210]as a standard[/url] - teams couldn't afford high volume from Jordan, since it was accompanied by high efficiency too..

But the REAL holy grail of basketball skill is far greater than controlling pace with high volume like Lebron, or adding good efficiency to the high volume like MJ.. The real holy grail is good efficiency at high volume [I][COLOR="Navy"]while winning championships[/COLOR][/I] because the efficient high volume must be achieved within the team concept.. Only 2 players have reached this holy grail of basketball skill (25 shot attempts on 45% during a championship playoff run): MJ did it 4 times (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem once (1995).. Ultimately, their elite midrange efficiency allowed them to shoot well at high volume.

Now lets look at Lebron - wouldn't it be nice for Lebron to score 20% more on better efficiency????... Isn't that what any fan would want of their favorite player??.. [I]Well that's what Jordan DID (see the stats below)[/I].

If Kobe or Lebron could shoot a higher volume at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of maintaining the same efficiency at very high volume:


[SIZE="1"][U]Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:[/U]

JORDAN:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. [COLOR="green"]32.5 fga.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg[/COLOR]
LEBRON:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]26.8 fga.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg[/COLOR]
KOBE:[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]27.7 fga.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg[/COLOR]
WADE:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]24.5 fga.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg[/COLOR][/size]


Considering the #2 thru #4 guys are between 32 and 36 points, you'd think the #1 guy would be at 37 or 38... But MJ is at 43.3 points, which far above the pack and in another tier - MJ simply [I]did more[/I] (higher volume) while still maintaining equal or better efficiency.

Love him or hate him.

As annoying and batshit crazy as any Stan can be, 3ball MURKS, it's doom for the opposition.

They hate him now, but other player stans secretly wish he was in their side.

[QUOTE=plowking]In what way is it not. Martin was a 20ppg scorer in his prime, and Harper just came off a 20/6/5 season. More rounded than Martin ever was.

An absolutely beasty defender to begin with, and then you tell him to just fit in on offense, and give his absolute all on defense? Come on... lol.

Put Jimmy Butler on the Spurs and tell him to just focus on D again. :oldlol:

You sit here and pretend as if people can't remember the type of offensive threat Harper was prior to the Bulls.[/QUOTE]

If you're just going to read basketball reference to come up with your conclusions at least do it right. Harper was not a 20/6/5 player when he started playing with Jordan. He joined the 95 Bulls not the 96 Bulls and only averaged 8/3/2 on 42% in 20 mpg for 65 games before Jordan ever came back. Jimmy Butler? You're basically saying he was a top 20 player at worst then :oldlol:. And the 95 Bulls, who were barely above .500 before Jordan came back could've easily used his 20/6/5. But he didn't cause he wasn't capable at that point. He was a good defender at that point and that was about it. Please stop acting like you know what you're talking about :oldlol:

[B]COMPARISON BREAKDOWN, LEBRON JAMES[/B]

[QUOTE=sundizz]1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.[/quote]

Dwyane Wade > Scottie Pippen

[quote]2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.[/quote]

Same or even a tier above Rodman as complete players:
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love

A tier below Rodman:
Chris Bosh

[quote]3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.[/quote]

Carlos Boozer with Cavs: 16 ppg (52 % FG), 11 rpg, 2 apg, 1 bpg, 0.7 spg
Drew Gooden with Cavs: 12 ppg (49 % FG), 9 rpg
Since you cherry picked one season worth of stats for Grant, here are Zydranus Ilgauskas first three seasons with James: 16 ppg (49 % FG), 8 rpg, 2 bpg

[quote]4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.[/quote]

Mo Williams with Cavs ('09, '10): 17 ppg (43 % 3FG), 5 apg, 3 rpg
JR Smith first season with Cavs: 13 ppg (40 % 3FG), 4 apg, 3 rpg
Larry Hughes with Cavs: 15 ppg, 4 rpg, 4 apg, 1.3 spg

[quote]5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.

6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%[/quote]

LOL at Charles Oakley and BJ Armstrong being some kind of special players. I listed six players comparable to Grant and Kukoc, so just pick two of the remaining four.

[quote]7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.[/quote]

Oh, so we're doing this where a players resume from before joining the discussed subject (Jordan) is merit in itself. Fact is Harper wasn't a very good player post ACL surgery -- serviceable but basically only good for team defense and play making (and knocking down wide open jumpers).

Players with awesome resumes that later joined Lebron James:
Shaquille O'Neal .. since you posted Harper's stats prior to joining Bulls. Should I list this guy stats?
Ray Allen ... how about this guys'?
Larry Hughes had this season just before joining James: 22 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg, 2.9 spg (steals title 2005)

lol Ron Harper


[quote]And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.

Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?[/QUOTE]

Other help:
Mike Bibby
Mario Chalmers
Chris Anderson
Udonis Haslem
Shane Battier
Rashard Lewis
Antawn Jamison

Jordan:
Orlando Woolridge
John Paxon
Craig Hodges
Bill Cartwright
Jud Buechler
Luc Longley
Bill Wennington
Stacey King
lol

Fun fact - "other, other" help
(played very little with, or played with but way beyond their prime)
Wally Sczcerbiak
Joe Smith
Jerry Stackhouse
Ben Wallace
Ricky Davis

[QUOTE=guy]If you're just going to read basketball reference to come up with your conclusions at least do it right. Harper was not a 20/6/5 player when he started playing with Jordan. He joined the 95 Bulls not the 96 Bulls and only averaged 8/3/2 on 42% in 20 mpg for 65 games before Jordan ever came back. Jimmy Butler? You're basically saying he was a top 20 player at worst then :oldlol:. And the 95 Bulls, who were barely above .500 before Jordan came back could've easily used his 20/6/5. But he didn't cause he wasn't capable at that point. He was a good defender at that point and that was about it. Please stop acting like you know what you're talking about :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

The guy is a joke. He doesn't understand anything about basketball pre-2004 because he wasn't watching back then. Worse yet, as you've stated, he can't even read box scores correctly when he's making one embarassing post after the other.

[QUOTE=plowking]Clearly exceptions to the rule are not allowed when making a general statement.[/QUOTE]
Rest?
Lets take a look at who Mj guards throughout the playoffs
89 and 90 Isiah
91 Magic
92 Clyde
3.93 Starks

Where is he resting numnuts

[QUOTE=Bankaii]Glad you're aware. You follow me around and comment on the majority of my Lebron/Wade posts. We get it you don't like Lebron, but go troll a Lebron stan I honestly don't care.[/QUOTE]

Me replying to your posts means I'm following you around :oldlol:

[QUOTE]His help was so great that he either led or was tied in points, assists, rebounds(0.4 difference), blocks (0.2 difference), steals.
Quite the crap man, take Lebron off that team from 06-10 and replace him with anyone not name Kobe and they get rekted in the first round every year.[/QUOTE]

[B]2007 vs Pistons[/B]
- Game 5, you have to admit was all LeBron. but what about the other games?
- the Cavs defense shut down the Pistons to 86 ppg for the series after 96 ppg in the season. A 10 ppg decrease
- Game 1 - Lebron 10 pts on 33%, Cavs only lost by 3
- Game 2 - LeBron 19 pts on 37%, 6 assist to 7 turnovers, Cavs only lost by 3
- Game 6 - LeBron 20 pts on 27%, Gibson drops 31-6-2 on 78%, and Cavs shut down Pistons to 82 points on 36% shooting to send them to the Finals

[B]2007 vs Spurs[/B]
- Spurs averaged 98.5 ppg in regular season, Cavs defense held them to 86.5 ppg. Spurs had a 12 ppg decrease against Cavs defense.
- Cavs defense hold Duncan to 45% shooting after 55% in regular season.
- Game 1 - Lebron 14 pts on 25% shooting, 7 rebs and 4 assist to 6 turnovers. Cavs only lose by 9
- Game 3 - Lebron 25 pts on 39%, 7 ast to 5 turnovers. Cavs only lose by 3 as Lebron missed game-tying 3
- Game 4 - 24 pts on 30 shots (33% shooting), 10 ast to 6 turnovers. Cavs only lose by 1 as Lebron goes 2/6 from the FT line.

[B]2008 vs Celtics[/B]
- Cavs defense shut down Celtics to 84 ppg for the ECSF after they averaged 100 ppg in the regular season. Celtics had a 16 ppg decrease against Cavs defense
- Game 1 - Lebron 2/18 shooting with 10 turnovers. In the 4th quarter, he had 1-8 FG, 0 FT, 2 points, and went 0/4 FG in the final minute including a missed game tying shot attempt with 10 seconds left. Cavs only lose by 4 after being forced to foul.[I] "Never had any help"[/I]
- Game 3 - Lebron 21-5-8 on 31% shooting, Delonte West has 21-5-7 on 64% shooting, and Celtics get shut down to 84 points by Cavs defense.
- Game 4 - Lebron 35% shooting and Cavs still get the win because the Cavs defense shuts down Celtics to 77 points on 39% shooting
- Game 6 - Lebron 39% shooting and 6 assists to 8 turnovers. Cavs still win because their defense shut down Boston to 69 points
Boston averaged 100 ppg in the regular season and the Cavs defense never let the Celtics reach 100 points once in the 7 game series.[I] "LeBron did it all by himself"[/I]
- Game 7 - Lebron has a great game of 45-5-6-2 on 48%.

[B]2010 vs Celtics[/B]
- Cavs are up 2-1, then in the next 3 games combined Lebron averages 34% shooting with 8 assists to 6 turnovers a game, and the Cavs go 0-3 and get sent home.

"abysmal help" :rolleyes:

'06 Wade makes it out of the 1st Round with Lebron's team, '09 & '10 Wade makes it as well.

[QUOTE]You stated their previous trips and that they gained Kukoc and Kerr. Longley was hurt most of the season and Kukoc and Kerr's combined >20 ppg scoring doesn't cover the GOAT scorer leaving.[/QUOTE]

You said players left outside of Jordan, what players?

[QUOTE]Before I stated that I prefaced it with "his IMPACT was overrated", but I did say his scoring was good due to his freedom in the GOAT system. I didn't mention his scoring in his earlier years because he scored alot but it resulted in losing. But continue name calling as if you know me.[/QUOTE]

I can only judge from what I've seen you post on this site.

I think I see what some of the problem is.

A lot of guys don't realize that the 1994 Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and win the championship next year - they were a 2ND ROUND TEAM PERMANENTLY without MJ, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.. If we were measuring that gap with our arms, how big would it be...

Otoh, 2014 Miami Heat were [I]not[/I] a 3-peat dynasty - they played far worse than anyone the Spurs faced in the playoffs (Mavs, Blazers, OKC), and were actually beat worse than any team EVER... No one who watched the colossal embarrassment in the Finals thought the Heat could beat any of those Western Conference teams.

At the time of their record defeat in the Finals, they were a 1st or 2nd Round Western Conference playoff team, at best.. [I]Then Lebron left[/I]... :eek:

That's a lot different then the Bulls actually WINNING the 3-peat with everyone still in their prime and therefore actually BEING a 3-peat caliber team, and then falling to permanent 2nd Round status (or worse) when MJ retired.

[QUOTE=3ball]Jamison missed 25 games and he was a starter.. Mo Williams (starter) missed 50 games.. Shaq (starter) left the team.. That's 3 starters outside of Lebron that the Cavs were missing..

Then they also lost Varejao, Delonte and Zydrunas - if you know ANYTHING about the Cavs, you'd know that each of these guys were key components of the team.. The Cavs had so many injuries and departures in 2011, that they had garbage men starting for them:

[I]Alonzo Gee[/I]: started 29 games
[I]Christian Eyenga[/I]: 18 games
[I]Ryan Hollins[/I]: 16 games
[I]Daniel Gibson[/I]: 15 games
[I]Manny Harris[/I]: 15 games
[I]Jamario Moon[/I]: 13 games
[I]Samardo Samuels[/I]: 10 games[/QUOTE]
Jamison was Lebron's second leading scorer in 2010 and only played 25 games in 2010, that's less than half the amount than in 2011. Quit using him as an excuse.

Since you keep using injuries as an excuse, through the first 30 games of the season, in which everyone on the Cavs was healthy, they were still [B]29th[/B] in the league in ORTG.

The team was decreased drastically the very next season before injuries. Want to know why... LeBron James.

There's a reason that even after the additions of lottery picks like Kyrie, TT, Waiters, Bennett, and additions like Deng, Hawes, etc the Cavs have have only cracked the top 20 in league ORTG once since Lebron left (they were 19th).

However time he returns they're back in the top 4 for back to back years.

Also, why don't you address how the Heat haven't even come close to returning to their offensive production in 2014 (5th best ORTG) in neither 2015 nor 16 (21st ORTG) despite loading up with talent to replace Bron and being healthy this year?

Your hate for Lebron makes you so oblivious.



[QUOTE=3ball]You've never proved anything or even tried to, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

You simply miss the point - wouldn't it be nice for Lebron to score 20% more on better efficiency????... Like, isn't that what any fan would want of their favorite player??.. Well that's what Jordan did...

Jordan simply DID MORE - just look at those stats again - Jordan scored more, on better efficiency - what else would you want him to do?... Score less, on less efficiency?... Like, your perception of this situation couldn't be dumber.[/QUOTE]
My goodness JORDAN SCORED MORE POINTS BECAUSE HE SHOT MORE.
Show me stats where Jordan took an equal amount of shots to Lebron, Bird, Kobe, etc and still scored more.

If you're referencing that per 100 playoff scoring then Jordan took far more shots on equal efficiency.
Volume scoring doesn't equal better scorer.



[QUOTE=3ball]They played at literally 98% capacity alongside Jordan - their highs alongside Jordan were essentially the same as their 1994 stats:

[I]Pippen 1992[/I]: 21.0 ppg.. 7.7 rpg.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]7.0 apg[/COLOR][/I].. 50.6 fg
[I]Pippen 1994[/I]: 22.0 ppg.. 8.7 rpg.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]5.6 apg[/COLOR][/I].. 49.1 fg

Grant's stats barely changed too - he averaged 14/10 in 1992, compared to 15/11 in 1994..

It's a testament to MJ's superior, off-ball style that Grant and Pippen could play to full capacity alongside Jordan... Compare that to Bosh, Love and Wade, whose stats crater alongside Lebron.. It's like night and day.[/QUOTE]
Anyone with a brain would understand this, but you don't understand the concept of context so I'll explain it again.

Jordan played in the GOAT system under the GOAT coach. The triangle is an equal opportunity offense that allows players to flourish even if the talent levels aren't equal. Although because Jordan is the GOAT, Phil gave him the freedom to score at will.

Pippen and Grant didn't have this freedom, which is why their stats didn't change significantly. Pippen could easily score 25 a game, if not under a system.

Lebron on the other hand has had rookie coaches with the Heat and current Cavs, thus there is no system. The plan is to go play also ball and out-talent other teams. Because Lebron is the best playmaker, he is usually the one that handles the ball the most.
This leads to players to not have as many opportunities as they would have being the 1st or 2nd option on shit teams.

And you're making shit up. Both Wade and Irving's stats are just as good as the year before.

Lebron actually helps his teammates get much easier shots, as seen by the increase in efficiency.

Bosh and Love's stats decreased because they went from being 1st options on shit, noncontending teams to 3rd options on championship contending teams. Both were taking 3-6 less shots per game, obviously their points will decrease. How stupid do have to be to not understand that?


[QUOTE=3ball]It's dumb that anyone would think this, but I'll respond anyway.

Pippen and Grant weren't as good in 1991 as they were in 1994 - just look at the stats... Pippen wasn't even an all-star that year and he was just coming off his epic choke in 1990 ECF.. He wasn't the experienced 3-time champion that he was in 1994.

The fact that Pippen and Grant had yet to peak is enough to prove the Bulls couldn't have duplicated the success they had in 1994 when they were savvy, 3-time champions.. Like ANY team, the Bulls' journey was an accumulative one.. The gradual acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994..

MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.. Every Bulls team required MJ to be the greatest scorer ever, which proves the Bulls didn't win 55 games in 1994 because they had talented scorers - they won because of the execution, strategy, and teamwork accumulated by 3-peating with MJ.[/QUOTE]
The last two paragraphs are copy and pasted, stop doing that shit.

Pippen had only been in the league for 2 years prior to 1990. For a 3rd year player his stats were incredible. Obviously he wasn't as good because he didn't have any experience.

Hypotheticals are dumb, but if Jordan doesn't exist the Bulls still would have made it to the 2nd round and 55 wins in 1994. They possibly are even better because they would've been required to do more.



[QUOTE=3ball]There wasn't a single copy paste in that post - you just can't respond to it - but here are the facts about the massive load MJ carried:

1) MJ scored a higher proportion of his team's points than any player ever

2) MJ assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals - he was the team leader in assist % for both 3-peats

3) MJ played goat-level defense in addition to all-time scoring and team leading passing.[/QUOTE]
You copy and paste everything 3Ball.

1) How many of those players had as many FGA as Jordan?

2) His usage was also extremely high, what do you expect?
No he didn't. The 1996 and 1998 Playoffs Pippen's is higher despite jordan having a 10% higher usage.

3) He also had to teammates that were both better defenders supporting him.
I don't discredit that doing what he did wasn't great, but he wasn't even the best nor most versatile defender on his own team.


[QUOTE=3ball]The Heat's record puts them in the middle of the playoff pack in the West - but more importantly, they played far worse than anyone the Spurs faced in the playoffs (Mavs, Blazers, OKC)... No one who watched the colossal embarrassment in the Finals thought the Heat could beat any of those playoff teams.

Infact, the Spurs destroyed the Heat worse than ANY team has been beaten - it was a record defeat.. Again, the 2014 Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West (and I'm being generous), that fell to a lottery team in 2015 (due to injuries to Bosh/Wade).

So don't confuse the 2014 Heat going from 1st Round Western Conference equivalency to lottery in 2015, with the 1993 Bulls - the 1993 Bulls three-peated and would've beaten the 2014 Spurs, but then they fell all the way to the 2nd Round in 1994.. Can you see the difference?
.[/QUOTE]
This post has zero logic whatsoever.

You can't compare how teams played a common team to determine if they would win a series or not. How stupid is that?

Teams have different weaknesses against different opponents. This is how I know you don't watch and definitely dont play basketball, even casual fans understand that.

The Spurs lost to the Clippers last year and the Clippers lost to the Rockets.
So , Rockets>Spurs, right dumbass?

[QUOTE=andgar923]Love him or hate him.

As annoying and batshit crazy as any Stan can be, 3ball MURKS, it's doom for the opposition.

They hate him now, but other player stans secretly wish he was in their side.[/QUOTE]
Except he doesn't whatsoever.

Whenever he loses an argument he cherry picks people's posts and disregards what he has no response for.

[QUOTE=Wade's Rings][B]2007 vs Pistons[/B]
- Game 5, you have to admit was all LeBron. but what about the other games?
- the Cavs defense shut down the Pistons to 86 ppg for the series after 96 ppg in the season. A 10 ppg decrease
- Game 1 - Lebron 10 pts on 33%, Cavs only lost by 3
- Game 2 - LeBron 19 pts on 37%, 6 assist to 7 turnovers, Cavs only lost by 3
- Game 6 - LeBron 20 pts on 27%, Gibson drops 31-6-2 on 78%, and Cavs shut down Pistons to 82 points on 36% shooting to send them to the Finals[/QUOTE]
You say what about the other games, and conveniently leave out the 2 he did well in.
Game 3: 32/9/9 on 57%.
Game 4: 25/11/6 on 42%.

Game 1: You conveniently leave out his 10 rebounds and 9 assists/2 TO ratio.
Also the fact that of the 21 4th quarter points Lebron assisted/scored half og them and had the team's best DRTG.

Game 2: Assisted/scored 7 of the 13 4th quarter points.

Game 6: He also had 14 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals and 2 blocks and had the team's best DRTG. Gibson had a monster game though, that's what teammates are for. Is lebron supposed to be the leader in scoring, assists, reboundiing, and steals every game?

The end result was still loses lol. I understand Lebron underperformed even though his team put him in a position to succeed, and I'm not making excuses for his poor play in those situations. But using the Cavs' defense when Lebron was clearly their best defender is disingenuous.

Also, using PPG is pretty invalid because the Pistons weren't an offensive team.

Lebron dropped 26/9/9/3 on 45% against arguably the GOAT defensive team and you're calling it an underperformance.:roll:

[QUOTE=Wade's Rings][B]2007 vs Spurs[/B]
- Spurs averaged 98.5 ppg in regular season, Cavs defense held them to 86.5 ppg. Spurs had a 12 ppg decrease against Cavs defense.
- Cavs defense hold Duncan to 45% shooting after 55% in regular season.
- Game 1 - Lebron 14 pts on 25% shooting, 7 rebs and 4 assist to 6 turnovers. Cavs only lose by 9
- Game 3 - Lebron 25 pts on 39%, 7 ast to 5 turnovers. Cavs only lose by 3 as Lebron missed game-tying 3
- Game 4 - 24 pts on 30 shots (33% shooting), 10 ast to 6 turnovers. Cavs only lose by 1 as Lebron goes 2/6 from the FT line.[/QUOTE]
Lebron underperformed this series, I don't know what else you want me to say lol.

Game 1: The game was over by the 3rd. Lol at "only by 9".
Game 3: Dude scored 12 points in the 4th. I understand he missed the GT 3, but seriously his performance in crunch time was solid. Cavs only lost by 3 because he took over.
Game 4: Lebron only had 13 points in the 4th alone, including a clutch 3. The Spurs were just scoring on their end too.


[QUOTE=Wade's Rings][B]2008 vs Celtics[/B]
- Cavs defense shut down Celtics to 84 ppg for the ECSF after they averaged 100 ppg in the regular season. Celtics had a 16 ppg decrease against Cavs defense
- Game 1 - Lebron 2/18 shooting with 10 turnovers. In the 4th quarter, he had 1-8 FG, 0 FT, 2 points, and went 0/4 FG in the final minute including a missed game tying shot attempt with 10 seconds left. Cavs only lose by 4 after being forced to foul.[I] "Never had any help"[/I]
- Game 3 - Lebron 21-5-8 on 31% shooting, Delonte West has 21-5-7 on 64% shooting, and Celtics get shut down to 84 points by Cavs defense.
- Game 4 - Lebron 35% shooting and Cavs still get the win because the Cavs defense shuts down Celtics to 77 points on 39% shooting
- Game 6 - Lebron 39% shooting and 6 assists to 8 turnovers. Cavs still win because their defense shut down Boston to 69 points
Boston averaged 100 ppg in the regular season and the Cavs defense never let the Celtics reach 100 points once in the 7 game series.[I] "LeBron did it all by himself"[/I]
- Game 7 - Lebron has a great game of 45-5-6-2 on 48%.[/QUOTE]
Game 1: choke
Game 3: Was the teams best defender by far.
Game 4: 13 assists and 6 rebounds. Assisted or scored 16 of the 20 4th quarter points.
Game 6: You forgot the 32/12/6 part lol. And the fact that Lebron either scored or assisted on every FG made in the 4th quarter:roll:
Game 7: Lol at a 45 point game on 48% being just "great. He also had 13 points in the 4th quarter and his team still lost.
Only one other Cav had double digit scoring. This is a prime example of what I meant. Lebron has a historic scoring game while also controlling the 4th but his support can't help him win.

[QUOTE=Wade's Rings][B]2010 vs Celtics[/B]
- Cavs are up 2-1, then in the next 3 games combined Lebron averages 34% shooting with 8 assists to 6 turnovers a game, and the Cavs go 0-3 and get sent home.[/QUOTE]
Yea he choked that series. Closeout game of 29/19/10 along with incredible defense though.


[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]"abysmal help" :rolleyes: [/QUOTE]
Yes abysmal help. In all these series you proved if lebron doesnt lead the team in all major categories while shooting above league average his team is guaranteed to lose.

Again, how many players have to lead their team in points, rebounds, and assists?

You're pointing out series from a 22 year old Lebron having to carry teams again superior, stacked, defensive oriented teams. His FG% is going to be low due to the fact that he is sole offensive threat.

He's not going to play well every series, no one is. But the difference is that many players have teams that can carry them over the hump during that slump, from 04-10 Lebron didnt.

So many agendas. Ain't ever going to change.

So Harper was averaging 6ppg for the Bulls, the year before Jordan came back for a full year. I totally missed that. I'm sure the OP didn't.

[QUOTE=jstern]So Harper was averaging 6ppg for the Bulls, the year before Jordan came back for a full year. I totally missed that. I'm sure the OP didn't.[/QUOTE]

If anything, the list he made shows how much help he didn't have compared to others. Kukoc, Harper, BJ, Oakley probably wouldn't even make the same list for Kobe or Lebron.