Remember when 34-35 year old MJ was more dominant than 2000 Shaq?

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Explain to me how the best players team had a player next to him that was the 4th best overall player in the league without the best player in the league? :confusedshrug: I consider MJ the best player ever but man did he have help compared to other superstar of the 90s. Without Jordan the Bulls where a 55 win team. End of discussion.[/B][/QUOTE]

You don't understand. Jordan's teammates were a bunch of scrubs. He carried them singlehandedly through the first three-peat. In the process, he injected them with three-peat chemistry, and taught them how to play. Thus, the only reason the Bulls won 55 games in 94 is because of Jordan. That's how dominant Jordan was: he wins 55 games for the Bulls without even being in the league. That is statistical fact.

[QUOTE=jongib369]Thought you'd appreciate this[/QUOTE]

No way around it, Wilt was off-the-charts. And the thing was, you could select almost any prime season of his, from his rookie year thru '68, and they were all just eye-popping.

And, yes MJ's '89 season was truly remarkable.

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt]You don't understand. Jordan's teammates were a bunch of scrubs. He carried them singlehandedly through the first three-peat. In the process, he injected them with three-peat chemistry, and taught them how to play. Thus, the only reason the Bulls won 55 games in 94 is because of Jordan. That's how dominant Jordan was: he wins 55 games for the Bulls without even being in the league. [B]That is statistical fact[/B].[/QUOTE]

And I believe 3ball has a gif which proves it, as well.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

"2 -2 =4"

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt]You don't understand. Jordan's teammates were a bunch of scrubs. He carried them singlehandedly through the first three-peat. In the process, he injected them with three-peat chemistry, and taught them how to play. Thus, the only reason the Bulls won 55 games in 94 is because of Jordan. That's how dominant Jordan was: he wins 55 games for the Bulls without even being in the league. That is statistical fact.[/QUOTE]

:roll: [B]Yeah they where touched by Jordan`s magic wand and they became good players...[/B]

34-35 year old MJ vs 2000 Shaq in a 1v1. Who wins? :roll:

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt]You don't understand. Jordan's teammates were a bunch of scrubs. He carried them singlehandedly through the first three-peat. In the process, he injected them with three-peat chemistry, and taught them how to play. Thus, the only reason the Bulls won 55 games in 94 is because of Jordan. That's how dominant Jordan was: he wins 55 games for the Bulls without even being in the league. That is statistical fact.[/QUOTE]

Well, those players did return back to the worthless scrubs that they were before Jordan, the very next season. Even MJ, himself, couldn't overcome their ineptitude.

Luckily, the Bulls brought in another career losing POS PF, who had never experienced a winning season, much less a title, the next year after that, and Jordan immediately turned him into a winner (albeit, making him much worse in the process.) Rodman came to the Bulls as a four time rebound champion, and while he would win three straight more rpg titles, by his last Finals, he could barely get 8 rpg. Just another example of Jordan's ability to create winners by making them worse.

Jordan's knack for taking scrubs, and making them even worse...but teaching them chemistry, which allowed them to win 55 games without him, is what truly separated MJ from a GOAT candidate like Magic. Magic was carried by HOF stacked rosters, but being the career loser that he was, that by the time he retired, they had completely forgotten how to play the game. Hell, look at KAJ. He was an MVP in Magic's rookie season, but after that he got progressively worse, and by his last season he was completely worthless. Magic basically killed his career. Oh sure, the rest of his teammates carried Magic for a while after Kareem retired, and even dragged his sorry ass to one more Final in his last season, but he had completely sucked the chemistry out of them, and the very next season they fell off the cliff.

Jordan was a "chemistry creator", and Magic was a "chemistry killer."

.
[COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"][I]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]



[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"]AS I SAID ORIGINALLY - 34-35 YEAR OLD JORDAN WAS FAR MORE DOMINANT THAN PRIME SHAQ

/THREAD[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[QUOTE=3ball].
[COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"][I]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]



[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"]AS I SAID ORIGINALLY - 34-35 YEAR OLD JORDAN WAS FAR MORE DOMINANT THAN PRIME SHAQ

/THREAD[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]
nope. his defense was no where near shaq level.

[QUOTE=AirBonner]

nope. his defense was no where near shaq level.

[/QUOTE]
Shaq wasn't a great defender - most years he wasn't elite at all.

Otoh, Jordan was the best defender at his position and 1st team all-defense in 1998 (9 first team all-defense selections in career).

Shaq wasn't the best defender at his position and was only 2nd-team all-defense in 2000 (only three 2nd-team selections in career, never 1st team)
.

[QUOTE=3ball]Shaq wasn't a great defender - most years he wasn't elite at all.

Otoh, Jordan was the best defender at his position and 1st team all-defense in 1998 (9 first team all-defense selections in career).

Shaq wasn't the best defender at his position and was only 2nd-team all-defense in 2000 (only three 2nd-team selections in career, never 1st team)
.[/QUOTE]

Peak Shaq's defensive impact was >>>>> 34-35 year old Jordan. It's ridiculous to argue otherwise. Shaq didn't always go all out on on defense, but when he did he was a beast, especially in the playoffs. He was not only a great rim protector and intimidator, he was a good PnR defender and athletic enough to switch out on the perimeter and still recover to defend the paint. Shaq could control the game on the defensive end in a way few if any players in history could.

The all-defense team argument is stupid. For one thing, there's only one spot for center and two for guards. More importantly, a big man has a much greater defensive impact than a guard. By your logic Kobe is a better defender than Hakeem, D-Rob, Garnett, Wallace, Mourning, Mutombo, etc....

[QUOTE=3ball]Shaq wasn't a great defender - most years he wasn't elite at all.

Otoh, Jordan was the best defender at his position and 1st team all-defense in 1998 (9 first team all-defense selections in career).

Shaq wasn't the best defender at his position and was only 2nd-team all-defense in 2000 (only three 2nd-team selections in career, never 1st team)
.[/QUOTE]

Peak Shaq was a DPOY level defender, a game changer on defense. He had much bigger impact there than 97' Jordan

[QUOTE=Dr Hawk]

Peak Shaq was a DPOY level defender, a game changer on defense. He had much bigger impact there than 97' Jordan

[/QUOTE]
^^^^ This is a clear overrating of Shaq's defense... But regardless, you guys aren't thinking through this correctly or logically.

The reason Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center doesn't matter in this comparison is because you're acting like the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL... But they had a center too.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - that's why the defensive end is a wash when comparing 2 great players at different positions - or if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).

Btw, you're overrating Shaq's defensive ability - he was solid when he wanted to be, but there's a reason he only made 3 second-team all defensive teams in his 19 year career, and never 1st team... He simply WASN'T a great defender.

[QUOTE=3ball]^^^^ This is a clear overrating of Shaq's defense... But regardless, you guys aren't thinking through this correctly or logically.

The reason Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center doesn't matter in this comparison is because you're acting like the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL... But they had a center too.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - that's why the defensive end is a wash when comparing 2 great players at different positions - or if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).

Btw, you're overrating Shaq's defensive ability - he was solid when he wanted to be, but there's a reason he only made 3 second-team all defensive teams in his 19 year career, and never 1st team... He simply WASN'T a great defender.[/QUOTE]
You mom should've just swallowed and spared the world of your idiocy.

[QUOTE=Dr.Hawk]

Peak Shaq... had much bigger impact there than 97' Jordan

[/QUOTE]
[I][COLOR="Navy"]LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.7.. 102
[I][COLOR="Navy"]O'NEAL[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.6.. 101

[COLOR="DarkRed"][B]Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more Kobe offset Jordan:[/B][/COLOR]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.1, 103
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: [COLOR="Red"]-0.5[/COLOR], 105


If we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well.

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing 2 great players [COLOR="blue"][I]at different positions[/I][/COLOR] - or if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).

Btw, unlike jordan, shaq wouldn't be a good defender in THIS era, where big men don't stand in the paint on defense like they used to - shaq's big ass taking up space was the #1 reason he had a decent impact defensively (imo)... the times he managed to shuffle his feet defensively were infrequent because he didn't have to come out on the perimeter often like today's bigs do, and he wasn't as good on the perimeter as say, Hakeem or Robinson.
.

[QUOTE=3ball][I]Again, the reason Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center doesn't matter in this comparison is because you're acting like the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL... But they had a center too.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - that's why the defensive end is a wash when comparing 2 great players at different positions - or if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).[/I]


[I][COLOR="Navy"]LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.7.. 102
[I][COLOR="Navy"]O'NEAL[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.6.. 101


[COLOR="DarkRed"][B]So Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more Kobe offset Jordan:[/B][/COLOR]


[I][COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.1, 103
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: [COLOR="Red"]-0.5[/COLOR], 105[/QUOTE]
Again, your mom should've just swallowed and spared the world of your idiocy.