Imagine what the proposed(but unlikely) tax plan would do to the NBA.

[QUOTE=Tainted Sword]I try to avoid having the mindset that such a broad and diverse demographic in this country are so dumb and incapable of taking care of themselves that it is the sacred duty of the government to care for them as if they were a bunch of invalids. I feel that is an elitist way to view things.

I blame the lack of knowledge you speak of on the education system. We pump more money than almost any other nation into it and it consistently fails to produce quality results. The only solution most politicians have is to pump more dough into it which is the very definition of insanity. Spending more on public education without addressing the systemic flaws that are failing children today is like someone repeatly investing in penny stocks with the hopes of striking rich. I think the tax revenue the government currently generates would go a long way if these politicians were more responsible with their spending and were held to the same management standards as an executive.

1. Civics should be taught every year beginning in jr high and students should be required to pass a civics exam before graduation.

2. Simple budgeting and financial classes should be taught every year starting in hs.

3. School counselors need to stop pushing college as the end all be all and students should be educated about the trade options that are available as well. As I said, there are alot of trade skills that are in demand and that currently have severe shortages now that boomers are retiring. Becoming a plumber or electrician is preferable to trying to make a career out of working at walmart.

4. There needs to be an emphasis on teaching these trades in hs like back in the day.[/QUOTE]

Completely agree about education, and some of the ideas above are solid ones in terms of real life prep for our youth, but that is only one factor. It is not a clean and easy problem.

It is a simple fact that general intelligence is very difficult to improve even with great education. Unfortunately, humans are victims of our genetics in powerful ways...and until we as a society come to terms with the fact that some people are blessed with great intelligence they did nothing to earn...and some are absolutely screwed with very low intelligence that they have to no fault of their own...we'll continue fail to create certain aspects of society that are beneficial to everyone.

Culture is another problem. Asian culture, for example, when it comes to a lot of the characteristics you described in your previous post...is way ahead of the game. Not only do they, broadly, have a higher level of general intelligence, but their culture pushes discipline, accountability, hard work...etc.

I'm actually not in favor of government welfare in the capacity we currently have it, but why would you doubt that certain subsets of our population are incapable of taking care of themselves? We are running that science experiment and have been for some time...and a percentage of our population is doing exactly, consistently, what you claim to doubt.

[QUOTE=greymatter][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPHSXUS0_1c[/url]

Aside from the above, the only things I'll say the US is bar none the best at is hemorrhaging money on military spending, bending over its citizens on health care costs, and producing the world's best basketball players.



The US, like many others, has a "mixed economic" system. Never been "pure" capitalist.



The most politically astute (and often most sardonic and/or pessimistic) individuals I come across on other MBs generally express the sentiment that "we get the government we deserve".[/QUOTE]

Correct, no system is really "pure" anything...

My point was to ease the fears of some that usually resort to "oh, so you're a socialist" when talking about this stuff. No, I'm not...but I'm in favor of (like any sane individual) of not solely letting the marketplace dictate everything.

Without getting into the weeds on healthcare or military spending...

I'll I will say is that our country is fat and sick far too often because of the horrendous food that has been pushed on us for decades. Free choice is a a sacred thing, but...again, something has to shift if we want the society and world that everyone seems to be fighting for in some form or another.

Most fast food, for example, is essentially poisoning real percentages of the population. Their business is to make people addicted to their food (which is unhealthy) for you. And, kind of hard to blame these companies when the dollar is the only thing that "really" matters in the end for them. My argument is that we need a philosophical shift here if we are going to progress.

You can't have 35% of a population obese and be running even close to optimal. And we are going to blame individual people for this? I just can't...not when like 50% of a population is overweight and unhealthy in some form or another. We've run the experiment...it doesn't work. Things have to change.

Again, we have to first come to the philosophical understanding that humans are not blank slates and that the current system is, to be soft, "sub-optimal" for a large percentage of individuals.

Now, we can either naively say "**** them, just work hard and don't make stupid decisions" or we can come to terms with reality, come together, and at least run a different experiment for a while.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
Now, we can either naively say "**** them, just work hard and don't make stupid decisions" or we can come to terms with reality, come together, and at least run a different experiment for a while.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. People just have to be willing to try. Most people think that the way things are is just the natural way, but really our present could have turned out much differently, and our future is still up for grabs.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]One of the more ignorant and surface level comments on the topic.

Do some research on just how ****ed you are in this society with certain levels of general intelligence without being lucky enough to have great family / friend support.[/QUOTE]


Kblaze shows very little ability to empathize... He might be a psychopath tbh

[QUOTE=tpols]Kblaze shows very little ability to empathize... He might be a psychopath tbh[/QUOTE]

Nah, he's just ignorant to how hard some people actually have it. Even though I disagree with him often, he's obviously quite intelligent as well...and usually it is very difficult for intelligent people to understand just how hard life can be for others that simply don't have that level of general intelligence they do.

I used to be that way as well until I became more educated philosophically and I traveled around the country / world enough to see what reality is like for large groups of people.

Generally I found that the notion of "**** these people, they have themselves to blame"...to often be espoused by people that just haven't spent much time at all contemplating topics like "free will"...and have done little reflection on just how lucky they've been in their own lives.

You don't pick your genes or your environment at birth. To not fully grapple with that is a huge mistake in my opinion.

Id have to write a novel even by my standards to reply to the multiple posts on what I said...

I will just say this....

My empathy is limited for the able bodied. And I maintain I probably had the poorest upbringing of any American on ISH. If you came up poorer than me you were literally homeless. Not evicted and staying with family homeless like me. You better have been sleeping under a bridge if you are gonna tell me shit about poverty. Ive lived in 2 of the places listed as the 25 worst neighborhoods in America by crime rate. Type "shemwood crossing" into google news and see the stories on where im from. And all those shootings and stabbings and murders....are today..when its a LOT better than it was 20+ years ago.

I dont know the people in question in passing. They are my family. My friends. My neighbors at times. I came home when I could afford not to. A literal one eyed murderer cuts my grass. A crackhead mechanic gang member works on my car. My neighbor had a fight with a woman who sent her dog after him and he shot it...and it died in my driveway. I saw it happen. I have the pictures in my phone if someone doubts me. Im not some commentator on the hood from afar. I live in it. Have all but a few years of my life. It doesnt really bother me...im used to it. nobody bothers me. But I have spent a lifetime hearing sob stories from ****ups.

Ive got jobs for ****ups who knew I could get them past the drug test...only for them to not show up. been in fights with family who talk about how I dont understand how hard it is when you have a felony. As if its my fault he pulled a gun on a woman in the 90s or nearly beat someone to death at a cookout.

Most people who cant get ahead....there is a reason...and its not society. Its them being lazy...a ****up....or stupid. Its hard to not be able to feed yourself if you dont have 2 of those strikes against you.

Intelligent lazy ****ups are doing fine. A stupid ****up with some work ethic can do fine. You know how many felons have mobile detailing jobs? People out here with a Tony Montana background still buy a 96 Ford Ranger and put a water tank in the back and wash 12 cars a day off facebook contacts alone. You can be lazy and stupid and make 18-29 bucks an hour at a plant if you dont have a record. I know too many people at BMW doing it.

People do legit get haunted by their past...and they change and still cant get ahead due to their past. Felonies. Dropped out of school 20 years ago and dont remember enough to get a GED easily. Lots of things. None of it is anyones fault but theirs....but how do you protect against it? How can you reward them over the people who kept it clean? Know how I ducked felonies? Not being a criminal. Not a stupid one at least. Know why I can get a good job? I didnt quit school to **** hoodrats when I was 16. Why have I advanced at every job I ever had? Because I work harder than anyone. I find who is best...and I do better. I was the best washing cars at toyota. The best in garden at Kmart. I was the best flipping burgers. Now I dont have to do those things.

In America if you cant take care of yourself as a healthy young person...you are lazy, stupid, or ****ed up your life with bad decisions in your past.

None of that is anyones fault.

I can feel a little for stupid. Im not talking disabled of course just....doesnt think things through? But how do you really account for that? This world gives too many chances to people who want them. Someone this morning woke up at 4 to go sweep floors....before going to a real job at 8. My friend tone works at taco bell, home depot, and a gas station to take care of SEVEN kids. And hes got felonies...AND no license.

Meanwhile we have people like my 46 year old cousin I had to literally remove from his moms home by force after our mutual grandmother passed and he lost the roof over his head. 46 years old been living with family mooching all his life. I told them 20 years ago that all that would happen is hed never learn to stand on his own two like I had to. He just bounces from older family member to older family member mooching. And hes a smart guy. He went to some college. Knows history....the law. Hes just a lazy asshole.

I kick him out....his mom gets me to kick him out of there too....he goes to the streets after some woman kicked him out. Then what?

Gets a damn job while living with friends. I front him the money for steel toed shoes for work(ill help a man get a job and get to work all day...im not helping you sleep on my couch). He keeps a job now because he has no choice. Has his own place for the first time ever. Still no car...but hes not a burden on anyone else. Hes never gonna thank me...but he admitted to his mom I was right.

A LOT of people just have to be kicked in the ass to man up. a lot.

All? No. Some people are legit disabled. Or too old. I think we need to do MORE for the elderly, disabled, and kids in some situations.

A healthy 25 year old in America?

Yea...**** em. And I say it proudly. Being coddled is not doing anyone a favor long term. Thats how you end up homeless when your parents die.

Help the sick. The injured. Give people laid off a bridge to find something else.

You in your prime not doing all you can do to better yourself? You stick with a 8 dollar a year job for 12 years like a moron? Im not one bit sorry to say you can go **** yourself. If after years in retail nobody promoted you its because you arent worth a damn. You only stay at the bottom when theres no reason to reach down for you.

Stop treating so many people with kid gloves they would act like adults. The ones that cant? Ok. Im all for helping. Im not against helping the unfortunate. Im against treating all poor people like they cant do anything about it.

Show me where to sign....id double disabled benefits and programs to help the elderly who live alone right now. If youre 25 and healthy?

I have nothing for you but advice. Take it...and then go be a man.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]

[B]Most people who cant get ahead....there is a reason...and its not society. Its them being lazy...a ****up....or stupid.[/B]

[/QUOTE]

Yep, I agree.

Now try to figure out where that person is ultimately responsible for being lazy or a **** up or stupid...

You won't find it.

Just like you won't find why you are the way you are. Your genes and environment (which you didn't choose) led you to be the successful and intelligent person you are...and you can't take credit for it ultimately.

What you say above is true in the sense that if people could do the things you prescribe...they'd be better off.

But a lot of people can't do them...and year after year they can't...reliably and consistently...

And we're supposed to just say "**** them"...and not try to run a different experiment that might yield better results?

Nah, that doesn't make sense when you understand how the universe works.

So some young healthy people are incapable of being hard workers? Just....cant be done. I understand you correctly?

It would depend on how you are defining incapable.

All I will say is...year after year...certain subsets of people can't do what you say...

And while my advice to those individuals would probably mirror yours very closely...

I know they aren't ultimately responsible for the person they are...and I'm not going to say "**** them"...

I'm going to try and run a different experiment that can reduce the number of people that aren't able to make things work.

IVe seen too many lazy parasites living off old women to go the "Its not his fault" route on grown men who choose not to apply themselves. Some people are just pieces of shit.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]IVe seen too many lazy parasites living off old women to go the "Its not his fault" route on grown men who choose not to apply themselves. Some people are just pieces of shit.[/QUOTE]

Yes, on the level of analysis you are doing...I completely agree.

However, that adult "piece of shit"...was once a child that didn't ask to be born and he didn't pick his genes or environment that produced the grown man they became.

Were they a "piece of shit" when they were 5 years old?

I'm talking about the fact that good or bad...human beings can't take ultimate credit / blame for who they are and their actions...we know too much to naively think that.

So I'm simply arguing that, knowing that, compassion and understanding should trump hate and judgment...and we should try to organize our society in a way that benefits the most people.

So far we've done a really good job, but I think we clearly can do better...and in my opinion, a big step to making necessary changes would be convincing people like you on things like the lack of libertarian free will and a more rational compassion for others...even if we despise who they are and their behaviors.

As I said im down to increase help for kids in some situation...im all for better education and support for kids who have potential. But what the real world is....is dozens of millions of existing pieces of shit. And you cant treat them with kid gloves because whatever ****ed them up happened in 1982. You cant fix these idiots by letting them off the hook for their current behavior. You may not be able to fix them at all. And when I have to choose who to support and who to throw out of the boat....sorry...the 29 year old who robbed an old lady at 19 after dropping out of school at 17 can go over the edge.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]As I said im down to increase help for kids in some situation...im all for better education and support for kids who have potential. But what the real world is....is dozens of millions of existing pieces of shit. And you cant treat them with kid gloves because whatever ****ed them up happened in 1982. [B]Y[B]ou cant fix these idiots by letting them off the hook for their current behavior. You may not be able to fix them at all.[/B] [/B]And when I have to choose who to support and who to throw out of the boat....sorry...the 29 year old who robbed an old lady at 19 after dropping out of school at 17 can go over the edge.[/QUOTE]

Who is saying to let them off the hook and not hold them accountable?

Of course I agree that there are millions of existing pieces of shit (in terms of how you are defining that phrase)...

To the bold...that is my point...we reliably produce these people....year after year after year...

Where we differ is that I'm not going to just say "**** them"...and I'm going to try and run a society that doesn't reliably produce as many of these people

Let me put it his way...do you agree that some combination of genes and environment is what led these people to be "pieces of shit"?

Running a society that produces less of them in the future doesnt fix the problem of millions of them already existing. The people are already walking around. What you do for kids yet to be born has nothing to do with the current pieces of shit. All you do by telling them it isnt their fault is making them less likely to make the changes to improve. You see someone make a major turn around one thing is pretty common...

Them realizing that their own behavior was the issue.

Of course everyone is a product of their genetics and the life they lived. But again...that doesnt do ANYTHING for the problem of millions of adults already existing who arent willing to apply themselves.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Running a society that produces less of them in the future doesnt fix the problem of millions of them already existing. The people are already walking around. What you do for kids yet to be born has nothing to do with the current pieces of shit. All you do by telling them it isnt their fault is making them less likely to make the changes to improve. You see someone make a major turn around one thing is pretty common...

Them realizing that their own behavior was the issue.

Of course everyone is a product of their genetics and the life they lived. But again...that doesnt do ANYTHING for the problem of millions of adults already existing who arent willing to apply themselves.[/QUOTE]

I'm not arguing that we tell them it isn't their fault though. I've never said that.

Sadly, most of the people you are talking about wouldn't even understand the type of conversation it would take.

Again, I already said my advice / solution to the existing people you speak of would likely be very similar to yours...but I think you lose sight of what turned these people into what they are when you say things like "**** them" and call them "pieces of shit"...

I'd rather see people like you say..."we reliably produce people like this...what can we do to limit that in the future and what can we do now to help"...

Rather than some of the things you've uttered.

And if you agree we are all just products of genes and environment...I'd argue that a true understanding of that would produce a far more compassionate view than yours.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't hold people accountable for their actions and have rules and laws and punishments in society...we absolutely should.

And, to bring it back to money / taxes...it takes that to try and solve any of these issues...whether it is creating the best society for unborn children or what to do with the "pieces of shit" you say exist by the millions.

If we want to change these reliable outcomes...it is going to take a movement from wealthy / intelligent people...and I'd argue that part of that change would be some reduction in the wealth inequality gap. Obviously that is only one part of the equation, but that part of it is related to the tax questions.

While I'm skeptical of UBI...I do think Andrew Yang, for example, has some interesting ideas on why it would work and where he'd get the money from.