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And for the record...
Kobe is a NEGATIVE in playoff DBPM (-0.3) and has a higher DRtg than Jordan and LeBron
You asked for it..
Playoff
DefRtg
LBJ: 102
MJ: 104
Kobe: 106
DBPM
LBJ: 3.2
MJ: 2.1
Kobe: -0.3 :lol
DWS
LBJ: 15.9
MJ: 12.4
Kobe: 7.3
LBJ 1st in all
Kobe last in all
LBJ > MJ > Kobe
Defensively
Next
1. Right. You can use things other than stats. The problem here is that you have to pick if the stats are meaningful or not. Meaning...why even use them for MJ if you don't think they are worth anything? By using them, you are giving them credence.
2. Superior teams? I don't know about that...I'd have to know how you are defining this...and would have to know how much credit you are giving to Shaq. In addition, coaching matters...having Phil Jackson was a nice luxury. As a Mavs fan...I'd rather Phil Jackson than Avery Johnson...wouldn't you?
3. Yes, Celtics were better in 08 despite the Lakers being the favorite. I agree. 2010? No, the Lakers were better all year. I disagree about 16...the Warriors were a historically good team that was coming off a title and the best regular season ever. This was not because people felt Lebron wasn't good enough...it was about the Warriors being all-time great.
4. I don't think it is all statistics at all. Lebron's passing and game managing was better than Kobe's. Lebron's ability to attack the rim was better. He was better defensively. He has better longevity as you've conceded. He was just a smarter player as well...didn't take as many terrible shots. Better transition player in terms of offense and defense. Better 3 point shooter as well. More durable and less injury prone.
I understand what you mean to say...Kobe was more skilled than Lebron..and I completely agree with that, but that doesn't translate automatically to better player. It can, but it doesn't here. Lebron was just a different level of an athlete than Kobe was and it showed in their impact.
5. Kobe went all out? Dude, post like 2011 he basically stopped trying at all on defense. Honestly, post like 2001 his defense fell off quite a bit in terms of effort. Again, read the Backpicks writeup on Kobe that details some of this.
6. Forget about winning? Are you arguing that Lebron somehow hasn't won a lot in his career? He's going to go down as one of the most winning players in NBA history. Not sure what you mean to say here.
7. Yes, Lebron was drawing dead in some finals. 07 for sure...and pretty dead in 15 because of injuries...and truly dead in 17 and 18. Are you actually arguing that 4th year Kobe is winning the 07 title on the Cavs? Are you actually arguing that Kobe wins titles in 15/17/18 on the Cavs? I mean, I'd get it if you were talking about 11...and I'd agree, but 07/15/17/18...that just isn't happening man. That was my point...you are holding things against Lebron that no player in history is for sure winning. Jordan, for example, would have a better chance, but he's close to dead in 17 and 18...if not dead...maybe he could have gotten 15...maybe.
But Kobe? The **** if he's getting a ring in 07/15/17/18...
[QUOTE=knicksman]Expecting rookie kobe to win it all. LOL. Bron stans gonna bron.[/QUOTE]
As usual, you missed the point mate.
:cheers:
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]As usual, you missed the point mate.
:cheers:[/QUOTE]
So rookie kobe playing with shaq is equivalent to prime lebron playing with superteams? LOL Whatever bro. No wonder you cant understand what 3ball is trying to say.
[QUOTE=knicksman]So rookie kobe playing with shaq is equivalent to prime lebron playing with superteams? LOL Whatever bro. No wonder you cant understand what 3ball is trying to say.[/QUOTE]
Nope, not at all.
The point was to show the inconsistency...like going hard after Lebron for losing the 07 finals...but making no comment about Kobe not even making the finals in 99 as the title favorite with Shaq.
You see, one should have to be remotely consistent in their arguments to be taken seriously.
Narrative has gone from
"LeBron diminishes star team mates"
To
"LeBron raises star team mates so much that I have to reassess my GOAT list regarding past all time greats"
Smh
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
1. Right. You can use things other than stats. The problem here is that you have to pick if the stats are meaningful or not. Meaning...why even use them for MJ if you don't think they are worth anything? By using them, you are giving them credence.
[/quote]
No, I'm just pointing out that there's no capacity in which Lebron beats MJ - not stats, not championship impact, not skills, not winning, not mentality
nothing
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
3. Yes, Celtics were better in 08 despite the Lakers being the favorite. I agree. 2010? No, the Lakers were better all year. I disagree about 16...the Warriors were a historically good team that was coming off a title and the best regular season ever. This was not because people felt Lebron wasn't good enough...it was about the Warriors being all-time great.
[/quote]
The 2010 Lakers won more games and were better all year, but the Celtics were better on paper - similarly, the 16' Warriors were better all year but the Cavs were better on paper and should've been flirting with 70 wins like Kawhi and Curry did.
Kobe would've had the juggernaut in 2016 that Lebron never had, and this would've resulted in a better team in 2017 too.. Kyrie also wouldn't need to leave, since Kobe wouldn't [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhjHGdKAvbg&t=0m47s]"take the point"[/url] from Kyrie every night like Lebron did... :roll:
Do you really have an excuse for why Curry won 70+ with Klay/Dray, and Lebron couldn't even win 60 with Kyrie/Love?.. The only excuse is that Curry's skillset allowed a superior brand of ball that turned role players like Draymond into HOF's and resulted in a great regular season team.. And Kerr ain't shit as a coach.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
4. I don't think it is all statistics at all. Lebron's passing and game managing was better than Kobe's. Lebron's ability to attack the rim was better. He was better defensively. He has better longevity as you've conceded. He was just a smarter player as well...didn't take as many terrible shots. Better transition player in terms of offense and defense. Better 3 point shooter as well. More durable and less injury prone.
[/quote]
But he needs to dominate the ball to get elite stats - that's the problem - if you're coaching lebron, you're [U]forced[/U] to let him handle the rock all the time, because he can't get elite stats any other way - if you take him off the ball, you marginalize your best player.
Coaches didn't have the issue with Kobe - he was good enough to get his max stats regardless of where you put him.. This maximized teammates and brand, so his teams were much better.. it's intuitive and there's no refuting this historical record.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
I understand what you mean to say...Kobe was more skilled than Lebron..and I completely agree with that, but that doesn't translate automatically to better player. It can, but it doesn't here. Lebron was just a different level of an athlete than Kobe was and it showed in their impact.
[/quote]
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=475199[/url]
championship impact my ass.. that's a myth... and it explains why lebron doesn't have as many rings as Morey thinks he would normally have
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
5. Kobe went all out? Dude, post like 2011 he basically stopped trying at all on defense. Honestly, post like 2001 his defense fell off quite a bit in terms of effort. Again, read the Backpicks writeup on Kobe that details some of this.
[/quote]
Okay, fair enough
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
6. Forget about winning? Are you arguing that Lebron somehow hasn't won a lot in his career? He's going to go down as one of the most winning players in NBA history. Not sure what you mean to say here.
[/quote]
He won by obtaining the extra/exhorbitant talent needed to offset his suboptimal, teammate-marginalizing style
He literally needed a 25 ppg scorer at 3rd option, so he could reduce it to 15 and still win.. If Love or Bosh were just 20 point scorers, then Lebron probably doesn't win if he reduces them to 10 ppg… He needed juggernaut 25 ppg scorers, so he could reduce them to 15.
And yes, I know he won with Love at 9 ppg in 2016, but Kyrie was probably 6-7 ppg above a normal #2, so it's moot.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
7. Yes, Lebron was drawing dead in some finals. 07 for sure...and pretty dead in 15 because of injuries...and truly dead in 17 and 18. Are you actually arguing that 4th year Kobe is winning the 07 title on the Cavs? Are you actually arguing that Kobe wins titles in 15/17/18 on the Cavs? I mean, I'd get it if you were talking about 11...and I'd agree, but 07/15/17/18...that just isn't happening man. That was my point...you are holding things against Lebron that no player in history is for sure winning. Jordan, for example, would have a better chance, but he's close to dead in 17 and 18...if not dead...maybe he could have gotten 15...maybe.
But Kobe? The **** if he's getting a ring in 07/15/17/18...[/QUOTE]
Kobe would've won in 2011, 2014, and possibly 2017..
Remember, Lebron had enough talent to have 70-win juggernauts from 2015-2017 - Curry did, so why not Lebron?
Kobe would've fulfilled the potential and had juggernaut teams with Kyrie, not 50-win garbage underdogs like Lebron had...
It would've looked totally different - KD/Curry's warriors wouldn't be easy favorites over Kobe/Kyrie.. And Love/Klay cancel out, while Dray is a scrub...
So Lebron simply underachieved in 2017... big time.. can you really justify him winning 53 games that year or whatever he won?... :biggums:
[QUOTE=AussieSteve]Narrative has gone from
"LeBron diminishes star team mates"
To
"LeBron raises star team mates so much that I have to reassess my GOAT list regarding past all time greats"
Smh[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll:
Facts
1. Nah, we know you think there is some validity to those objective measures. Regardless, even if you didn't...you'd be operating in the completely subjective arena which is rather pointless because of all of our biases and preferences. I agree it should be a combination, but to negate all objective measures isn't useful.
2. Again, I disagree about 2010 and 2016. But, when it comes to 16...what does it matter? Lebron won and was great.
3. As you know, I agree that Lebron's style can at times be suboptimal. This is why I don't rate him as highly as others do. Problem is...this is true for Kobe as well in terms of his style being suboptimal...again...please go read the breakdown of Kobe at Backpicks...it details much of this. Also, to say coaches didn't have issues with Kobe is either the result of ignorance or more blatant lying. Come on now...
4. Lebron doesn't have as many rings as he should have because of what I consider to be one of, if not the biggest, meltdowns by a star in NBA history. To argue that Lebron should have more than 4 rings based on his circumstances is insane...unless one were to think he's the GOAT...which obviously isn't true here. A fair question would be, why are your expectations so high for a player you don't think was nearly as good as most do?
5. Kobe won with some of the most stacked teams relative to competition in NBA history. To use the "help" argument here against Lebron is pretty bad even for you. No doubt Lebron has played on a bunch of loaded teams since 2010, but Kobe over the course of his career did as well.
Again, you are using title or bust here. We all agree about Lebron in 11. However, this is a direct parallel to that for Kobe in 04...and I mean direct. Do we have to pretend like Wade/Bosh were playing at great levels in 14? Please don't do that. Do we have to pretend about 2015 out there with nobody? Do we have to pretend like there was a real chance in 17/18?
The problem when making this argument against Lebron in favor of Kobe is that the only counter is that Kobe wasn't good enough yet to win with Shaq. He failed as the favorite in 99. Was carried in the finals in 00. Again, imagine Lebron winning a title playing like Kobe did in 00...I swear...I'd worry about you. Then he loses as the favorite in 03 and 04. Loses again as the favorite in 08 and gets upset in 11...then, as you said...really started declining. That just doesn't holde up very well when the same stuff is thrown back at him. It is just...3 titles while being the 2nd best player on his own team...that inflates his titles won for his circumstances.
I will say this again and it needs to be dealt with. Kobe in the 00 finals was actually not even as good as Lebron in 11...and he got a title out of it. Ask me again why I don't like counting up titles to compare great players...LOL
6. 2011? Yes. Other years? No, he's not. The notion that Kobe is getting a title off the Durant Warriors tells me everything I need to know here...just an absurd take. I might as well just say I think Lebron wins 6 titles in his first 8 years with Shaq. Honestly probably a better chance of that happening than Kobe, in year 14 of his career...beating those Warriors.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Nope, not at all.
The point was to show the inconsistency...like going hard after Lebron for losing the 07 finals...but making no comment about Kobe not even making the finals in 99 as the title favorite with Shaq.
You see, one should have to be remotely consistent in their arguments to be taken seriously.[/QUOTE]
nah. 3ball is consistent. It just that its substance based thats why you dont see it coz youre a stats guy.
[QUOTE=knicksman]nah. 3ball is consistent. It just that its substance based thats why you dont see it coz youre a stats guy.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, to argue that it is fair to go after Lebron for his performance in the 07 finals...but not fair to go after Kobe in the 99 playoffs...isn't consistent.
Doesn't matter what type of "guy" I am...even though you are off-base there as well in how you are categorizing it.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Sorry, to argue that it is fair to go after Lebron for his performance in the 07 finals...but not fair to go after Kobe in the 99 playoffs...isn't consistent.
Doesn't matter what type of "guy" I am...even though you are off-base there as well in how you are categorizing it.[/QUOTE]
What are you smoking? Kobe was 20 years old playing on a bad ankle in a much tougher defensive environment. Comparing those two series equally is far from being consistent.
Kobe played the same spurs team the next year in 08 and dropped 29/6/4 with 58.5% TS
[QUOTE=warriorfan]What are you smoking? Kobe was 20 years old playing on a bad ankle in a much tougher defensive environment. Comparing those two series equally is far from being consistent.[/QUOTE]
LOL
He was in his 3rd year playing on the team favored to win the title. He had Shaq on his team. And he got swept out of the playoffs.
To argue that Lebron making the finals in year 4 playing with nobody approaching Kobe's help and losing to a Spurs team that was better than the 99 team that beat the Lakers...is worse...
Is exactly the type of double standard I'm talking about.
Lebron overachieves with his team to get to the finals. Kobe gets swept in round 2 as the title favorite starting the season.
But, yep, it is fair to hammer Lebron and not Kobe...makes sense.
Uhhh...yea, because Kobe in 08 was a better player than Lebron was in 07 and had a much better team...and the Spurs were worse. Let me guess...it doesn't matter that Manu was hurt either...right? Ever actually take the time to think about this?
Exactly my point...not consistent at all. Always an excuse for Kobe.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]LOL
He was in his 3rd year playing on the team favored to win the title. He had Shaq on his team. And he got swept out of the playoffs.
To argue that Lebron making the finals in year 4 playing with nobody approaching Kobe's help and losing to a Spurs team that was better than the 99 team that beat the Lakers...is worse...
Is exactly the type of double standard I'm talking about.
Lebron overachieves with his team to get to the finals. Kobe gets swept in round 2 as the title favorite starting the season.
But, yep, it is fair to hammer Lebron and not Kobe...makes sense.
Uhhh...yea, because Kobe in 08 was a better player than Lebron was in 07. Ever actually take the time to think about this?[/QUOTE]
[url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DiJZjmrUy68[/url]
He was injured and didn’t even play a game lol. Man you are a dumb piece of shit. Good luck with that.
Edit: oh you are talking about the 99 playoffs and not the finals, point still stands comparing a player when they are 20 to someone who is 22 and saying it doesn’t mean anything is bullshit. For two I would love to see LeBron James go against David Robinson and Tim Duncan. Dude would get shut down so badly it wouldn’t even be funny. You are still a [COLOR="Black"]f[/COLOR]ucking idiot
:rolleyes: