Teammate career rankings between Jordan and Lebron -- The Reality

[QUOTE=3ball;14111825]Ewing led his share of advanced stats just like Pippen and destroys the raw stats

Pippen was a bad scorer compared to Ewing.. it's like comparing Iggy to Embiid.. no one thinks iggy > Embiid and it was the same with Pippen and Ewing

Ewing was on that top tier, aka MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Malone, Barkley... Pippen was never on this level and it's a disgusting lie to say he was[/QUOTE]

Not quite. To Ewing's credit, he has a higher ts% & per, but Pippen outclasses him in everything else. I don't know why you're confused, but the numbers are public information for everyone to check. Pippen wins in a complete landslide. Now with that in mind, you can confidently say Pippen was the best SF in the 90s. And also better than the #1 on Chicago's best comp. This makes him top tier & even greater.

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111814]Real plus minus is the best measure of impact, so this is very keen data. Thank you. Pippen now leads Ewing in basically every major advanced stat & now in impact without the box score. Not a complete sweep but domination that is close enough. Will the Jordan fans address it? Can they come to terms with Pippen > The #1 on their greatest rival? Time will tell![/QUOTE]

They are making Ewing look bad by having all these numbers be dug up and have Pippen ahead of him over and over again. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=insidious]To Ewing's credit, he has a higher ts% & per[/QUOTE]

Here is my count.

Ewing is ahead in: PER, TS %, peak WS/48
Pippen is ahead in: prime WS/48, BPM, OBPM, DBPM, VORP, ORTG, prime WOWYR, WOWYR score, peak BPM, Augmented Plus-Minus, Real Adjusted Plus-Minus, Net on/off court

So that is 12-3 for Pippen and where Ewing is ahead it is close--but when Pippen is ahead it rarely is close. For instance, Ewing is 108th all-time in peak WS/48--Pippen is right behind him at 110th. In TS % Ewing is ahead by 1% (that is bad for a C--he should be ahead by more over a SF). PER it is 1.3 for Ewing. Where Pippen is ahead he crushes him. 6-4 in BPM, double the OBPM, 6.3-4.6 in VORP (it may not sound like much but that means Pippen is 37% higher), 112-108 in ORTG, Pippen is 105th in prime WOWYR while Ewing is 214, Pippen is 42nd in prime WOWYR score while Ewing is 85th, Pippen is 23rd all-time in Augmented Plus-Minus while Ewing is 56th, Pippen is 24th in peak BPM while Ewing is 125th.

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111829]Not quite. To Ewing's credit, he has a higher ts% & per, but Pippen outclasses him in everything else. I don't know why you're confused, but the numbers are public information for everyone to check. Pippen wins in a complete landslide. Now with that in mind, you can confidently say Pippen was the best SF in the 90s. And also better than the #1 on Chicago's best comp. This makes him top tier & even greater.[/QUOTE]

Ewing leads:

PPG
OREB
DREB
RPG
BPG
FT %
FG%
TS
EFG
DREB%
OREB%
REB%
PER
WS/48
Usage
DRTG
2 pt %


Pippen leads:

APG
SPG
OBPM
DBPM
BPM
VORP
ORTG
Assist %
turnovers (lower)
3 pt %


But again, the most important stat is scoring, where Ewing destroyed Pippen and separated himself as a top tier player and rival of Malone, Robinson and MJ... never pippen's rival.. pippen had no rivals because he wasn't on the top level to be rivals with the top dogs

Take the L and move on. Pippen>Ewing using MJ stans' own metrics.

[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/UddZtcUQtMgc8/giphy.gif[/IMG]

:hammertime:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111871]Take the L and move on. Pippen>Ewing using MJ stans' own metrics.

:hammertime:[/QUOTE]

Ewing's 5 year peak destroys pippen's, so who cares about your arbitrary 9-year peak that includes fossil Ewing

Ewing leads the vast majority of stat categories for their careers, as shown above

And Ewing was a vastly superior scorer that carried teams, which made him a rival of MJ, Isiah, and Malone, while Pippen was never on that level. This is common knowledge

[QUOTE=3ball;14111863]Ewing leads:But again, the most important stat is scoring, where Ewing destroyed Pippen and separated himself as a top tier player and rival of Malone, Robinson and MJ... never pippen's rival.. pippen had no rivals because he wasn't on the top level to be rivals with the top dogs[/QUOTE]

Your count is wrong. Pippen also leads in WS/48. His column is also more impressive and I will explain why. Impact stats are not raw but they are adjusted for noise, and most of them account for possession. Your [U]total[/U] game or the repertoire you have in your skillset. Bpm-rapm-apm are especially great because of the isolated effect. No other stats capture numbers away from team but these do. And with rapm, there are no numbers needed. It is without the box-score. Pure impact.

The only conclusion we arrive at is Pippen > Ewing & therefor the more important player. Another way to look at it is, with the stats you frequently used to prop Jordan, they also matchup perfectly for Pippen. The end result is alike.

[quote=Roundball_Rock]Ewing is ahead in: PER, TS %, peak WS/48
Pippen is ahead in: prime WS/48, BPM, OBPM, DBPM, VORP, ORTG, prime WOWYR, WOWYR score, peak BPM, Augmented Plus-Minus, Real Adjusted Plus-Minus, Net on/off court[/quote]

And here is the correct count.

[QUOTE=1-9ball]the most important stat is scoring, where Ewing destroyed Pippen [/QUOTE]

That is a myth.

Prime scoring: Ewing 24.0, Pippen 20.0
Prime PO scoring: Ewing 22.5, Pippen 19.2

When you factor in assists and Pippen's ability to actually make his teammates better, Pippen was the more impactful offensive player (which the offensive RAPM and OBPM numbers back up).

Ewing was not a great player to run an offense through because of his poor passing skills (unlike Shaq or Hakeem). It is a big reason why, along with the lack of a 2nd star, why the Knicks' offenses consistently were below average or flat out bad. Pippen could anchor a good offense and a great defense; Ewing could anchor a below average/bad offense and a great defense.

Ewing was never higher than 4th in MVP and made only 1 all-NBA first team. MJ stans present him as if he was Malone, Robinson, or Barkley--he wasn't. He got a lot of hype but he played in New York, the largest market and home of the national sports media (plus the Knicks' local announcer was the marquee announcer on flagship NBC telecasts), so not surprising. More revisionism from MJ stans.

Ewing and Robinson were both centers so we can compare them prime vs. prime in all-NBA.

1990: Ewing 1st, Robinson 3rd (rookie year)
1991: Robinson 1st, Ewing 2nd
1992: Robinson 1st, Ewing 2nd
1993: Ewing 2nd, Robinson 3rd
1994: Robinson 2nd
1995: Robinson 1st
1996: Robinson 1st

Let's do the same with Pippen and Barkley for the same time frame.

1990: Barkley 1st
1991: Barkley 1st
1992: Both 2nd
1993: Barkley 1st, Pippen 3rd
1994: Pippen 1st, Barkley 2nd
1995: Pippen 1st, Barkley 2nd
1996: Pippen 1st, Barkley 3rd

Pippen surpassed Barkley by 94'--Ewing never surpassed Robinson for a sustained period. He was ahead of rookie Robinson but only once after that.

[QUOTE=Insidious]Impact stats are not raw but they are adjusted for noise, and most of them account for possession. Your total game or the repertoire you have in your skillset. Bpm-rapm-apm are especially great because of the isolated effect. No other stats capture numbers away from team but these do. And with rapm, there are no numbers needed. It is without the box-score. Pure impact.[/QUOTE]

Great points. The most important stat is the scoreboard: the goal is to score more than the other team. Anything a player can do to further that goal matters. Individual scoring is only a fraction of what a player does on the court.

[QUOTE=3ball;14111885]Ewing's 5 year peak destroys pippen's, so who cares about your arbitrary 9-year peak that includes fossil Ewing

Ewing leads the vast majority of stat categories for their careers, as shown above

And Ewing was a vastly superior scorer that carried teams, which made him a rival of MJ, Isiah, and Malone, while Pippen was never on that level. This is common knowledge[/QUOTE]

What? There is nothing arbitrary about a 9 year prime. Afterall those are the years that actually matter.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111871]Take the L and move on. Pippen>Ewing using MJ stans' own metrics.

[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/UddZtcUQtMgc8/giphy.gif[/IMG]

:hammertime:[/QUOTE]

:hammertime: :djparty

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111889]Your count is wrong. Pippen also leads in WS/48. His column is also more impressive and I will explain why. Impact stats are not raw but they are adjusted for noise, and most of them account for possession. Your [U]total[/U] game or the repertoire you have in your skillset. Bpm-rapm-apm are especially great because of the isolated effect. No other stats capture numbers away from team but these do. And with rapm, there are no numbers needed. It is without the box-score. Pure impact.

The only conclusion we arrive at is Pippen > Ewing & therefor the more important player. Another way to look at it is, with the stats you frequently used to prop Jordan, they also matchup perfectly for Pippen. The end result is alike.



And here is the correct count.[/QUOTE]

No, my comprehensive list was for their [I]careers[/I].

I could care 2 bird shits about your arbitrary 9 year prime that includes fossil Ewing - Ewing's 5 year peak destroys Pippen's, or their 1 year peak..

aka Ewing averaged 29/11/3 with 4.0 blocks in 90'.. or 26/11/3 with 3.0 blocks from 90-94".. and far superior playoff peaks as well.. it's a dumb comparison.

Ultimately, Pippen's scoring deficit put him on a lower level of player entirely - a 2nd option, aka a "pippen", while Ewing was an alpha dog 1st option.. Ewing was on the top tier with MJ, Malone and Robinson - Pippen never was and this is common knowledge

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111899]What? There is nothing arbitrary about a 9 year prime. Afterall those are the years that actually matter.[/QUOTE]

I used the time frame they were all-NBA type players. 1-9ball is trying to use their washed up years.

5 year primes? That is harder to do because it is harder to draw the line. For instance, is it 1992-1996 or 1993-1997 for Pippen? Realistically, we would go 92', 94', 95', 96', 97' but that isn't how BBR software works.

A notable thing about Ewing is his best stats came on bad or average teams. Pippen had his stats on contenders. It is easier to rack up stats on a 39 win team than it is on a 67 win team. Ewing benefited from his situation statistically yet still loses to Pippen over and over.

Let's tally their 5 highest years in certain metrics.

Pippen BPM: 7.7, 7.5, 6.3, 6.1, 5.8
Ewing BPM: 5.5, 5.2, 4.9, 4.5, 4.2

Pippen has 6 seasons better than Ewing's best in BPM.

Pippen VORP: 7.2, 6.8, 6.4, 6.1, 5.9
Ewing VORP: 6.0, 5.5, 5.5, 4.9, 4.8

As you can see, Pippen's four best seasons are higher than Ewing's best and Pippen's 5th best is 0.1 behind Ewing's best. Ewing's second best season would be 7th for Pippen.

5 year augmented plus minus:

Pippen: 5.3 (23rd all-time)
Ewing: 4.3 (56th all-time)

Plus/minus is where Pippen's all-around game and intangibles shows up. People forget stuff like Pippen being an elite rebounder for a perimeter player. He averaged 9 RPG at his peak, which would be 10 RPG in today's pace--as a SF.

Peak BPM:

Pippen: 24th
Ewing: 125th

In CORP (championships added over replacement player), Pippen had 6-7 MVP level seasons while Ewing had 3-4.

Ewing didn't score enough to offset his lack of passing, creation ability. He needed to learn to playmake (MJ himself mocked him by saying he would never win a chip until he learned to pass out a double team) or needed to score more. Doing what he did led to bad offenses coupled with elite defenses and it is hard to win when your team is bad half the time on the court.

Edit: forgot to add if we compare their numbers as number 1 options the gap grows even more in advanced stats and in scoring it closes to 22.2 versus 24.0 in the RS and Pippen pulls ahead 22.8 to 22.5 in the PO. Granted we don't have a big sample for Pippen in the PO but we have 141 RS games of prime Pippen as a number 1 option.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111916]I used the time frame they were all-NBA type players. 1-9ball is trying to use their washed up years.

5 year primes? That is harder to do because it is harder to draw the line. For instance, is it 1992-1996 or 1993-1997 for Pippen? Realistically, we would go 92', 94', 95', 96', 97' but that isn't how BBR software works.

A notable thing about Ewing is his best stats came on bad or average teams. Pippen had his stats on contenders. It is easier to rack up stats on a 39 win team than it is on a 67 win team. Ewing benefited from his situation statistically yet still loses to Pippen over and over.

Let's tally their 5 highest years in certain metrics.

Pippen BPM: 7.7, 7.5, 6.3, 6.1, 5.8
Ewing BPM: 5.5, 5.2, 4.9, 4.5, 4.2

Pippen has 6 seasons better than Ewing's best in BPM.

Pippen VORP: 7.2, 6.8, 6.4, 6.1, 5.9
Ewing VORP: 6.0, 5.5, 5.5, 4.9, 4.8

As you can see, Pippen's four best seasons are higher than Ewing's best and Pippen's 5th best is 0.1 behind Ewing's best. Ewing's second best season would be 7th for Pippen.

5 year augmented plus minus:

Pippen: 5.3 (23rd all-time)
Ewing: 4.3 (56th all-time)

Plus/minus is where Pippen's all-around game and intangibles shows up. People forget stuff like Pippen being an elite rebounder for a perimeter player. He averaged 9 RPG at his peak, which would be 10 RPG in today's pace--as a SF.

Peak BPM:

Pippen: 24th
Ewing: 125th

In CORP (championships added over replacement player), Pippen had 6-7 MVP level seasons while Ewing had 3-4.

Ewing didn't score enough to offset his lack of passing, creation ability. He needed to learn to playmake (MJ himself mocked him by saying he would never win a chip until he learned to pass out a double team) or needed to score more. Doing what he did led to bad offenses coupled with elite defenses and it is hard to win when your team is bad half the time on the court.[/QUOTE]

Good stuff, Roundball. So with all the goalpost shifting, their narrative is still shot. I actually expected better. Well not really. But hey don't get me wrong, Ewing was great. I liked him as a player and saw most of his prime. The thing is though there were better centers and perimeter players then. Pippen was one of them. The only pushback you will hear is from the same fanbase, but they are faint. Not much wiggle room when you're arguing against logic and data.

[QUOTE=3ball;14111910]No, my comprehensive list was for their [I]careers[/I].[/quote]

That's silly way to debate. Using prime years or when they were [U]at their best[/U] draws a cleaner picture. And we aren't talking peanuts here, a 9 year sample is pretty massive. From that timeline, Pippen outdueled Ewing in most advanced stat categories. And even better, the ones that measure individual from team. So the endgame here is Pippen actually being a #1 who was better than his opponents #1. That is quite a luxury Jordan had.

[quote]I could care 2 bird shits about your arbitrary 9 year prime that includes fossil Ewing - Ewing's 5 year peak destroys Pippen's, or their 1 year peak..[/quote]

I didn't ask about your feelings. You're too emotionally invested if anything. Again, more data entry is prone to less noise, so that means 9 years > your smaller sample. This is basic math.

Yes roundball, we know that pippen has a non-horrific BPM (the stockton stat, aka steals weighted stat), so you keep harping on it

But what else does he have?.. VORP?.. yes, we already know he has good value above replacement, another meaningless stat.. And what else.. OBPM?.. APG, SPG, ORTG?. thres?. that's it..

otherwise, it's all Ewing - PPG, DREB, OREB, RPG, BPG, TS, FG, EFG, FT%, 2-pt %, PER, WS/48, DRTG, reg season peak, playoff peak, H2H, 1st option (pippen is 2nd option)

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111508]Heat, Bulls had similar results in win totals in the previous four years.

1990-1993 Bulls: 55, 61, 67, 57
2011-2014 Heat: 58, 57*, 66, 54

Yet...

1994 Bulls: 55
2015 Heat: 37

So 55, 61, 67, 57, 55 for the Bulls from 1990-1994 and 58, 57, 66, 54--and 37 for the Heat from 2011-2015.

Can anyone identify the difference here? There is one number here that is not like the other numbers.

*Over 82 games.[/QUOTE]

I try to stay away from the daily MJ/Bron war going on in here but I couldn't avoid such low hanging fruit.

You want the difference bro?

Well, MJ left his team as 3 peat champs so they had the chemistry and confidence of champs heading into 1993-94. Plus, you had Pip and Grant entering their absolute peaks. Not to mention, they added Kukoc, by far the best Euro player on the leagueat the time, along with Kerr.

Bron, on the flip side, got facialed in historic fashion in the finals and left a sinking ship. And by 2015, Wade was clearly past his prime.

And please, I could care less about some stat you might throw at me without proper context. I am always weary of people who depend so heavily on stats.

PEACE!

Clipper, that makes no sense. The Heat were 2x champs. No confidence :lol ? Yeah, yeah. MJ stans will bring up stats all the time but then don't want to see their own stats applied outside of their deceptive agenda, like the OP.

Basically the one "argument" for Ewing is that he scored 4.0 more in the RS and 3.3 more PPG in the PO (with Pippen scoring 1.8 less as a first option in the RS and 0.3 more in the PO). That's pretty pathetic. That's it?

Another 1-9ball lie was Pippen had no rival. He did. His name was Grant Hill, a Pippen-like player without the elite defense. Before that he didn't have a direct comp at SF but the New York Times in 1991 and Sports Illustrated compared him to another two-way elite player. That player's name? michael Jordan.

The data is for the entire time Ewing was all-NBA level. 97' he was second team all-NBA. That was his highest since 93', since he didn't make All-NBA from 1994-1996. MJ stans raved about 94' Ewing who All-NBA voters thought was fourth best at his position so why exclude 97' when he was behind only Hakeem?