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[QUOTE=Baller234;14871157]Oh, so now free throws matter? I thought efficiency was the be all and end all? What happened?
Who's a better free throw shooter? Kobe or Lebron? Who's more likely to ice the game from the free throw line?[/QUOTE]
TS% factors fg%, 3pt%, & ft%. It's the best way to judge someone's efficiency. And LeBron also blows Kobe out of the water in that department.
[QUOTE=Baller234;14870921]@1987 Lakers
I'm not going to argue with over Kobe and Lebron. I think Kobe was better but I don't think choosing Lebron is blasphemy. He obviously also has a case as one of the best to ever to do it.
The problem is when people pretend that Kobe is Carmelo Anthony and doesn't belong anywhere near the GOAT discussion, or when they insist he's not even top 10.[/QUOTE]
It's obvious to pretty much everyone that Kobe was a tier ahead of Carmelo, but he doesn't belong anywhere near the GOAT convo and ranking him just outside the top 10 is pretty reasonable.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871159]TS% factors fg%, 3pt%, & ft%. It's the best way to judge someone's efficiency. And LeBron also blows Kobe out of the water in that department.[/QUOTE]
Oh wow, you went to made up advanced statistics. What good is TS% when you're shooting free throws to ice the game? How come these invented statistics are only relevant when you want it to be?
And even if we were to play your game, Lebron's career TS% is [B].58[/B] and Kobe's is .[B]55[/B]. Oh wow, a whole 3% difference. I guess that's sure fire proof that Lebron was the better basketball player.
Also I'm curious, does this logic still apply? It looks like Lebron's highest TS% for a season was [B].64[/B] back in 2012.
Here are the players who had a higher TS% than that just last season:
- Zion
- Giannis
- Curry
- Durant
- Jokic
I guess considering that these players had more efficient seasons than Lebron had throughout his entire career, they all must be better than Lebron.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Baller234;14871165]Oh wow, you went to made up advanced statistics. What good is TS% when you're shooting free throws to ice the game? How come these invented statistics are only relevant when you want it to be?
And even if we were to play your game, Lebron's career TS% is [B].58[/B] and Kobe's is .[B]55[/B]. Oh wow, a whole 3% difference. I guess that's sure fire proof that Lebron was the better basketball player.
Also I'm curious, does this logic still apply? It looks like Lebron's highest TS% for a season was [B].64[/B] back in 2012.
Here are the players who had a higher TS% than that just last season:
- Zion
- Giannis
- Curry
- Durant
- Jokic
I guess considering that these players had more efficient seasons than Lebron had throughout his entire career, they all must be better than Lebron.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
You are missing the point, efficiency is a great thing to have, but LeBron's game is simply more versatile than Kobe's. Along with the efficiency, LeBron is arguably the greatest passing forward ever along with Bird, at his defensive peak he was more impactful than Kobe and to top it off his longevity is simply a tier above his. It's pretty much impossible to have Kobe ranked ahead of him, I haven't seen any list have Kobe ahead of LeBron since 2016.
This site had a top 75 players ever project a couple of years ago and Kobe came in at #11.
Realgm had Kobe at #12 in 2020.
Whether you like it or not, your whole "Kobe is in the GOAT convo" belief is a claim that isn't agreed upon by most fans.
[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777[/url]
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871167]You are missing the point, efficiency is a great thing to have, but LeBron's game is simply more versatile than Kobe's. Along with the efficiency, LeBron is arguably the greatest passing forward ever along with Bird, at his defensive peak he was more impactful than Kobe and to top it off his longevity is simply a tier above his. It's pretty much impossible to have Kobe ranked ahead of him, I haven't seen any list have Kobe ahead of LeBron since 2016.
This site had a top 75 players ever project a couple of years ago and Kobe came in at #11.
Realgm had Kobe at #12 in 2020.
Whether you like it or not, your whole "Kobe is in the GOAT convo" belief is a claim that isn't agreed upon by most fans.
[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777[/url][/QUOTE]
Wait I'm confused.
Before it was [B]"Lebron is better because of efficiency"[/B].
Then when that logic was turned on it's head, the argument transformed into [B]"Lebron is better because of TS%"[/B]
And now that THAT logic got turned on it's head, the argument has transformed yet again. Now it's [B]"Lebron is better because I've seen him ranked higher on other people's lists...[/B]"
[IMG]https://media0.giphy.com/media/J2DYCDA15pTau86IGr/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9520jazqxtz6a9ob7n3m4erjib6vgf37y93hdw11a64&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g[/IMG]
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
If you really wanna break down skill for skill, Kobe is a far better one on one player and he's also better at playing off the ball. So miss me with all that fake advanced bullshit.
I respect Lebron as one of the all time great players, but his fans are the absolute worst and really don't know about dikk about dikk. It's really just stats stats stats with you guys.
It's close but give me Mamba all day.
[QUOTE=Baller234;14871172]Wait I'm confused.
Before it was [B]"Lebron is better because of efficiency"[/B].
Then when that logic was turned on it's head, the argument transformed into [B]"Lebron is better because of TS%"[/B]
And now that THAT logic got turned on it's head, the argument has transformed yet again. Now it's [B]"Lebron is better because I've seen him ranked higher on other people's lists...[/B]"
[IMG]https://media0.giphy.com/media/J2DYCDA15pTau86IGr/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9520jazqxtz6a9ob7n3m4erjib6vgf37y93hdw11a64&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g[/IMG]
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
If you really wanna break down skill for skill, Kobe is a far better one on one player and he's also better at playing off the ball. So miss me with all that fake advanced bullshit.
I respect Lebron as one of the all time great players, but his fans are the absolute worst and really don't know about dikk about dikk. It's really just stats stats stats with you guys.
It's close but give me Mamba all day.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
Keep in mind, you're arguing with someone who doesn't know what an advanced stat is.
[QUOTE=Baller234;14871172]Wait I'm confused.
Before it was [B]"Lebron is better because of efficiency"[/B].
Then when that logic was turned on it's head, the argument transformed into [B]"Lebron is better because of TS%"[/B][/QUOTE]
Did you miss my first post in this thread?
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14870831]As someone who watched Kobe for his entire prime years, this post is just pure comedy. :oldlol:
The only thing he has a case for is being one of the greatest scorers to ever step on the court, at his peak, he was an animal of a scorer, actually had more range on his shot than MJ, also a better ball-handler, but he never really reached MJ's athletic ability and was a poor shot selector at times.
The knock on Kobe is that besides scoring, he didn't really provide much to other aspects of the game compared to other all-time greats like LeBron. He was actually a top tier defender during the 1st 3 peat, but by '03 up until he retired, his defense was nothing to right home about. He could man you up when he was serious, but he was often out of position and was even criticized by Phil Jackson for his lack of defense by 2004 or so. Him making a bunch of all-defensive teams was strictly a reputation award. It was a running joke among all fans. He wasn't really known for his passing, he was a capable passer for sure, but for the most part he was known as a "do it yourself" player and got some criticism for selfishness.
And what gets swept under the rug about Kobe is his performances in big games. He was flat out bad in game 7's, closeout games, and had some pretty underwhelming Finals, guys like MJ & LeBron blow him out of the water in those categories.[/QUOTE]
I clearly state his lack of versatility compared to LeBron.
Nice try though.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871167]Whether you like it or not, your whole "Kobe is in the GOAT convo" belief is a claim that isn't agreed upon by [B]most fans[/B].
[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777[/url][/QUOTE]
You may have Kobe as low as not even top 100 for all I care, but 'most fans' are nowhere near message boards. Basketball sites altogether have how many people discussing these things? 100,000 thousand world wide? I doubt it's even that much. Not even 0.1% of viewers following the sport on a quasi-regular basis are discussing it on forums like this one. You may say: okay, but we are 'serious' fans. Maybe. But whatever the critics say about a TV show, a movie, a book or an album, it is the general public that decides things in the end. Several hundred people on a given website is a fun community but that's it. If 'the majority of posters on a given site' is an argument and you want to use it, you have to accept x million votes on another website, too. And we know for a fact that most fans do have Kobe in their top 20. (Top 10, and a majority probably even in their top 5). You may try to exclude those votes as coming from 'morons' who do not 'follow the game' but we all can exclude whatever and whoever we want if we so please.
[QUOTE=Full Court;14871173]:roll:
Keep in mind, you're arguing with someone who doesn't know what an advanced stat is.[/QUOTE]
"plus-minus tracks down how many points a player has scored" - full court
:lol
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871177]Did you miss my first post in this thread?
I clearly state his lack of versatility compared to LeBron.
Nice try tough.[/QUOTE]
Oh wow he's versatile? Okay.. and? What about scoring versatility? Does that count?
Lebron's overall versatility might be a factor if you're comparing him to someone like Melo, but you're comparing him to Kobe. Kobe was an actual leader who also played great defense.
Lebron is a better passer than Kobe. Kobe is a better one on one player, better scorer, better leader, better free throw shooter... and far more dangerous with the ball in his hands at the end of a game.
Give me MAMBA.
[QUOTE=Baller234;14871180]Oh wow he's versatile? Okay.. and? What about scoring versatility? Does that count?
Lebron's overall versatility might be a factor if you're comparing him to someone like Melo, but you're comparing him to Kobe. Kobe was an actual leader who also played great defense.
Lebron is a better passer than Kobe. Kobe is a better one on one player, better scorer, better leader, better free throw shooter... and far more dangerous with the ball in his hands at the end of a game.
Give me MAMBA.[/QUOTE]
If kobe was all that you say, then why did he end up his career only having one league mvp and two finals mvps? Just curious to know.
[QUOTE=Axe;14871183]If kobe was all that you say, then why did he end up his career only having one league mvp and two finals mvps? Just curious to know.[/QUOTE]
Look at this dogshit.
First it was made up advanced statistics. Now it's fake narrative driven media awards.
You Bronnies have ZERO shame. Next you're gonna ask how come Kobe doesn't have an in-season tournament trophy.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
LeBron obliterates Kobe in impact stats, he's quite literally factually better. They played their careers during a time when such things could be tracked, this isn't like comparing Elgin Baylor to John Havlicek, we actually have the data. Arguing against stats is stupid, literally every competent GM uses advanced stats and impact data to determine who they get. The reason guys like Billy Beane in the MLB and Darryl Morey in the NBA were able to get ahead of the rest of the field was because they were using advanced stats when the rest of the league was still using silly stuff like "killer instinct" or whatever buzzwords talking heads come up with. If anyone is curious what these stats are, EPM, LEBRON, RAPM, RPM, APM, PIPM. Pretty much all these stats rank MJ and LBJ as the two best ever since such data was tracked (mid 90s), which shouldn't be surprising to anyone.
[QUOTE=Baller234;14871180]Oh wow he's versatile? Okay.. and? What about scoring versatility? Does that count?
Lebron's overall versatility might be a factor if you're comparing him to someone like Melo, but you're comparing him to Kobe. Kobe was an actual leader who also played great defense.
Lebron is a better passer than Kobe. Kobe is a better one on one player, better scorer, better leader, better free throw shooter... and far more dangerous with the ball in his hands at the end of a game.
Give me MAMBA.[/QUOTE]
KD is better one on one player, better scorer & free throw shooter than LeBron, yet nobody has him ranked ahead of him.
Better leader? We are talking about a guy who didn't speak to teammates because he felt superior (Ask Smush Parker)
[QUOTE=Baller234;14871184]Look at this dogshit.
First it was made up advanced statistics. Now it's fake narrative driven media awards.
You Bronnies have ZERO shame. Next you're gonna ask how come Kobe doesn't have an in-season tournament trophy.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Just answer the freaking question, you dolt. :confusedshrug:
Idc if you think he's the better player between the two. That question is related with regards to his actual all-time ranking.