How credible is a Steph Curry GOAT case?

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14936255]This thing has Harden above LeBron & KD. :lol

It also only goes back to 2014, it leaves out the numbers from peak LeBron.

Would love to see LeBron's numbers in 2009 when he led an underwhelming roster to the #4 offense. Or 2013 when he was a menace all year offensively.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=tpols;14936260]Incredible data.

And I'm not surprised at all that Curry and Jokic are at the top. Anybody with a brain can see that their impact is totally next level both in terms of individual production and, most importantly, team enhancement.

Lebron has the individual production but not the team enhancement. Which is why he ranks so much lower.

If you look at the playoff H2H records too this is validated once again. Both Curry and Jokic hold enormous W/L records vs Lebron.[/QUOTE]


The data don’t lie. Everything on that list looks pretty legit to be honest. The company who made that metric got bought out big time to do political shit. They don’t even do this small time nba stuff anymore unfortunately.

But is it truly a shocker that Lebron scores closer to James Harden than he does to Curry and Jokic?

Like we said eye test backs this up….Lebron pumps up the box score but his teams aren’t as efficient as a Jokic or Steph team. You can squirm around all you want claiming needs more help or whatever but according to his box score, Lebron has had an extended prime of around 20 years…if you want to argue he’s had such bad luck and all of his teammates are so bad…okay, it’s just gets a bit insane at some point.

Tier 3 all-time player(. If you want to rank him, that translates to anything from 9th to 15th.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14936401]Tier 3 all-time player(. If you want to rank him, that translates to anything from 9th to 15th.[/QUOTE]

this is a good but very pessimistic floor type ranking for him

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14936404]this is a good but very pessimistic floor type ranking for him[/QUOTE]

Well I have Jordan, Kareem, Lebron and Russell as Tier 1. They are the most decorated players in history.

Tier 2 I got Shaq, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Wilt, Kobe. That's the next level of domination/accolades.

Steph to me is Tier 3 with Oscar, West, Dr. J, Durant, Moses. Or you can move him into Tier 2 after Kobe and I won't argue. I don't think he has an case for GOAT, to me the 'this player can be a GOAT depending on criteria' is the Tier 1 guys. Tier 2 is just below that, GOATs but no case for being 'the GOAT.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14936406]Well I have Jordan, Kareem, Lebron and Russell as Tier 1. They are the most decorated players in history.

Tier 2 I got Shaq, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Wilt, Kobe. That's the next level of domination/accolades.

Steph to me is Tier 3 with Oscar, West, Dr. J, Durant, Moses. Rank him however you wish in that grouping, but I don't put him above the players in Tier 1 and 2 career-wise/dominane wise. You could make an argument that Stephs style pioneered an era and move him into Tier 2 and I wouldn't argue. I don't think he has an case for GOAT, to me the 'this player can be a GOAT depending on criteria' is the TIer 1 guys. Tier 2 is just below that, GOATs but no case for being 'the GOAT.[/QUOTE]

You must be low on the Warriors as a team historically for that list to make any sense. If the Warriors are the greatest NBA team of all-time then having both its lead players in tier 3 while other teams have their 2 leads in higher tiers makes no sense.

Kareem and Magic higher? Shaq and Kobe higher? Kareem and Oscar higher? Wilt and West higher? You think the teams those guys were known for are greater than the Curry-Durant Warriors? Morever putting KD in that tier 3 is based on what?

[QUOTE=Stephonit;14936408]You must be low on the Warriors as a team historically for that list to make any sense. If the Warriors are the greatest NBA team of all-time then having both its lead players in tier 3 while other teams have their 2 leads in higher tiers makes no sense.

Kareem and Magic higher? Shaq and Kobe higher? Kareem and Oscar higher? Wilt and West higher? You think the teams those guys were known for are greater than the Curry-Durant Warriors? Morever putting KD in that tier 3 is based on what?[/QUOTE]

What is KDs career outside of 2017 and 2018? He's a great player, but what has his talent translated to in terms of team winning outside of being on a team that had already won and has the all-time record? He couldn't keep it together in Brooklyn, granted thats not all on him but I do factor in leadership intangibles and he's be the first to tell you he don't give a fukk about that. That's why I have Steph over him, KD in isolation may be a more dynamic unguardable talent but 'I just wanna hope' doesn't galvanize the lockerrom and thats why he's never won, or will ever win, outside the Warriors. Not as a main guy anyway. There's alot of guys with the talent and could hang on the floor with anyone. Prime Tmac could hang with the GOATS but his talent never translated to wins and losses and then he got hurt. It is what it is.

I also saw most of the guys in tier 1 and 2 and I just think they were just better players overall. I have my reasons, and it's not an exact science. Based on your name its obvious why you favor, so there is little point me explaining myself further.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14936409]What is KDs carrer outside of 2017 and 2018? He's a great player, but what has his talent translated to in terms of team winning outside of being on a team that had already won and has the all-time record. I also saw most of the guys in tier 1 and 2 and I just think they were just better players overall. I have my reasons, and it's not an exact science. Based on your name its obvious why you favor, so there is little point me explaining myself further.[/QUOTE]

You seem to misunderstand my question regarding KD. Why is KD even in the same tier as Oscar, West, Dr. J, and Moses?

For the sake of argument let's say Oscar has the least impressive career of that group. Without Kareem, his supporters will probably say he had the most unfortunate supporting cast of the lot in comparison to KD who separate from the Warriors still played with one of the best supporting casts.

[QUOTE=Stephonit;14936411]You seem to misunderstand my question regarding KD. Why is KD even in the same tier as Oscar, West, Dr. J, and Moses?[/QUOTE]

Why wouldn't he be? What makes those guys careers worse, or them worse however you define it? Answer my question, why am I supposed to put him on a pedestal for 2017 and 2018? Alot of great players win in that situation. There is a wide gap between a Harrison Barnes and KD as far as SFs who win in that situation. I know what KD is and isn't, and he's been that for 17 years. It's not a secret at this point.

Moses is probably underrated. I can make the case that Oscars main claim to fame is less relevant now because we're in an inflated stats era so the triple double is less important than when he was doing it over seasons, and he only won as Kareems sidekick. I can roll with that. But do I think KD is in Tier 2? With Shaq? Hakeem? Duncan? Kobe? Magic? Bird? Hell no.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14936412]Why wouldn't he be? What makes those guys careers worse, or them worse however you define it. Answer my question, why am I supposed to put him on a pedastal for 2017 and 2018. Alot of great players win in that situation. Moses is probably underrated. I can make the case that Oscars main claim to fame is less relevant now because we're in an inflates stats era so the triple double is less important than when he was doing it over seasons. But do I think KD is in Tier 2? With Shaq? Hakeem? Duncan? Kobe? Magic? Bird? Hell no[/QUOTE]

Let me rephrase: Why isn't KD in Tier 4? Outside of the Warriors KD's main career highlights is one MVP and one finals appearance and that's with some strong supporting rosters. Compare that to someone like Moses who has 3 MVPs and made a finals with a weak cast or Oscar who has an MVP and was generally thought to be on weak teams constantly facing the dynasty Celtics.

[QUOTE=Stephonit;14936413]Let me rephrase: Why isn't KD in Tier 4?[/QUOTE]

He could be. Like I said, its not a science. My Tier 4 would be guys like Dirk, Garnett, Robinson, Wade, Mailman. Hell, At this point Jokic could be Tier 2 or 3 but he's still writing his career. Giannis could be tier 2 or 3. These guys are still playing and writing their story. Again, there is nothing consistent or exact about these conversations. Alot of it feel and preference.

I read your edit. So you're saying KD should be below tier 3. Sure. Talentwise he's a Tier 2 but for what he's actually done outside 2017 and 18? Yeah sure, Tier 4. I'm not spending the night debating something this non-scientific though.

I haven't addressed the original poster yet so let me do so now.

Curry has quite a few things in his column that make him an obvious candidate.

To start with the most basic things you expect to see in terms of results are in his favor.

Led the team with the single season regular season wins record. ( Implies that he is ranked first according to this metric)
Led the team with the single season playoffs wins record. (First)
Led the team with the most dramatic turnaround from bottom dweller to champion. (First)

Is the master of the biggest weapon in the game. (First)
Is the key guy in the team widely considered to be the best in NBA history. (First)
Has a season that is arguably the greatest statistical season ever thus a unanimous MVP. (First)

All the above are not just arguments for top 10, they are arguments for greatest ever. They are not forced or stretched arguments either they are natural arguments. These are all things you could have anticipated a player who is the greatest ever to have a claim to being even at the start of this exercise of determining who it is if entering without preconceptions. The above points are also minimally debatable. Some of them are outright just Steph alone while the others have maybe only one or two legitimate contenders for the claim.

Steph plays in the modern era. Some older guys may have more impressive numbers in some categories but playing in the modern era with its 4 rounds of best of 7 series in the playoffs and deeper field one could argue should give modern players a boost in comparisons to players from earlier eras.

In a similar vein Steph has played in the tougher conference in a non-expansion era. It's also a player movement era which means that the constantly evolving league keeps giving different challenges making it harder to keep on trotting out the same team to defeat the same adversaries that you've already shown to own.

When one looks just at the common sense basics Steph has a fairly straightforward case. The extra stuff media creates are just made-up distractions.

[QUOTE=Stephonit;14936411]You seem to misunderstand my question regarding KD. Why is KD even in the same tier as Oscar, West, Dr. J, and Moses?[/QUOTE]

Moses was the KD of his era, he joined a superteam to win a title, didn't really have success outside of that '83 chip. Dr. J never won without Moses.

It makes sense that the greatest 3-point shooter (Curry) and the best 2-point shooter (MJ) should be 1 and 2, or vice versa... I prefer the pure basketball side of things, so I would go with the best 2-point jumpshooter and assume that the best 2-point shooter would easily pick up threes and probably already showed great aptitude and potential in that area - the best 2-point jumpshooter would also be the best in the 70's when there was no 3-point line.... Btw, Curry has more MVP's than Kobe and won with Klay < Pau (a lot less).. Pau was a franchise player (expected to build something from scratch), while Klay never was.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14936475][B]It makes sense that the greatest 3-point shooter (Curry) and the best 2-point shooter (MJ) should be 1 and 2[/B], or vice versa... I prefer the pure basketball side of things, so I would go with the best 2-point jumpshooter and assume that the best 2-point shooter would easily pick up threes and probably already showed great aptitude and potential in that area - the best 2-point jumpshooter would also be the best in the 70's when there was no 3-point line.... Btw, Curry has more MVP's than Kobe and won with Klay < Pau (a lot less).. Pau was a franchise player (expected to build something from scratch), while Klay never was.[/QUOTE]

No it doesn't. At all. Do I need to bring up that thing again?

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14936126]it’s actually better

curry doesn’t have the team hops, he doesn’t have the chokes, he doesn’t have the GOAT choke (2011), where lebron joined the 2nd and 4th highest PER in the league (Wade had FMVP experience as well), and went on to claim he’s going to get 8 titles in Miami and it’s “going to be easy” only to subsequently lose in the Finals while being outscored by 0 time all star, journeyman, undersized shooting guard, Jason Terry, despite Terry logging in 67 less minutes than Lebron during the Finals.

Bron has a bunch of empty stats from longevity but with his teamhops and finals disappointments, along with the goat choke, it really bombed his all time rating. There was a moment he could have been goat. It went really sideways for him after The Decision.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I certainly have the Chef over LeEPO and it's not even close. I value someone who doesn't shrink in bright lights.