Jokic is the 4th best player of all time

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984849]Someone trying to claim Hakeem > Jokic is straight up laughable.

Please dont bring up Hakeem's rings. They were not only won in the WEAKEST time period of the three point era (90's), but he also won the 2 years when peak MJ retired.[/QUOTE]
RRR3's not lying that you sound like a young casual fan with posts like this :lol

What Hakeem did in '94 & '95, carrying one of the weakest championship rosters ever in '94, beating Malone/Stockton, Barkley/KJ, Robinson/Rodman & Shaq/Penny all on the road in '95, eviscerating Ewing & Robinson h2h, and winning MVP & DPOY absolutely puts him in argument with Jokic if we're talking strictly peaks. Not even LeBron & Jordan are clearly above that.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984867]He would need to be with great offensive players to have a great offense. That never happened in the players'primes. But no one is saying that olajuwon is just as good as an overall offensive player. Just that he is a great offensive player along with being one of the greatest defensive players of all time. And yes, defense does matter.[/QUOTE]

Yes defense does matter. Which is why I said Hakeems defense bridges the gap between him and Jokic offense. And that it all evens out and they both have GOAT peaks. Seems like we're going in circles where you don't realize I'm agreeing with you.

[QUOTE=tpols;14984864]Hakeem never led an elite offense in his entire career I don't need to cherry pick one year. His offenses literally aren't even close to Jokics. Its not even close.

This site amazes me sometimes. Just in the past 25 hours I've had to debate people that Wade isnt as good as SGA, Durant wasn't the best player on the 2021 Nets, and now Hakeem can apparently QB all time great offenses like Jokic even though he never did.

It is amusing though to conversate this stuff. Thank you. :lol[/QUOTE]

I dont get it. If jokic is so good and has a teammate that turns into a 50/40/90 guy who averages 20+ points every year in the postseason. Why [B]THE FU[I]CK[/I][/B] does he lose every year? Why did a 22-year-old ant man (still wet behind the ears) knock him off in the playoffs on the road? Why did he almost get swept by the warriors? Why does he have multiple playoff loses by 30+ points? Hakeem didnt have a 20+ ppg scorer who turned into a 50/40/90 guy every post season. If Jokic is so good why does he get out played by embiid H2H when you look at their H2H stats/ H2H record? Do you think Embiid would out play Hakeem if they played multiple times like Jokic and embiid? Do you think that highly of embiid?


All of a sudden beating Jimmy Butler in a Finals makes you some sort of killa. But losing by 45 to the Timberwolves means nothing. Getting swept by devin booker means nothing. Getting beat 4 times by the warriors with a 6'7 draymond green @ center in the playoffs means nothing.

He will nevvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvver crack the top 5. IDGAF what anaytics say. NEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. I have eyes..... I remember him choking against ANT...... i remember the warriors beating him like a pinata...... i remember him getting stopped by a over the hill bubble dwight......I REMEMBER..... no matter how much you suck his d[I]i[/I]ck.....ILL REMEMBER! Every......single....playoff flop

[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14984873]I dont get it. If jokic is so good and has a teammate that turns into a 50/40/90 guy who averages 20+ points every year in the postseason. Why [B]THE FU[I]CK[/I][/B] does he lose every year? Why did a 22-year-old ant man (still wet behind the ears) knock him off in the playoffs on the road? Why did he get swept by the warriors? Why does he have multiple playoff loses by 30+ points? Hakeem didnt have a 20+ ppg scorer who turned into a 50/40/90 guy every post season. If Jokic is so good why does he get out played by embiid H2H when you look at their H2H stats/ H2H record? Do you think Embiid would out play Hakeem if they played multiple times like Jokic and embiid? Do you think that highly of embiid?


All of a sudden beating Jimmy Butler in a Finals makes you some sort of killa. But losing by 45 to the Timberwolves means nothing. Getting swept by devin booker means nothing. Getting blown out 3 times by the warriors back to back to back means nothing. Being 0-2 in game 7's mean nothing.[/QUOTE]

Calm down. Jokic vs Embiid is over. Been done.

[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14984873]I dont get it. If jokic is so good and has a teammate that turns into a 50/40/90 guy who averages 20+ points every year in the postseason. Why [B]THE FU[I]CK[/I][/B] does he lose every year? Why did a 22-year-old ant man (still wet behind the ears) knock him off in the playoffs on the road? Why did he get swept by the warriors? Why does he have multiple playoff loses by 30+ points? Hakeem didnt have a 20+ ppg scorer who turned into a 50/40/90 guy every post season. If Jokic is so good why does he get out played by embiid H2H when you look at their H2H stats/ H2H record? Do you think Embiid would out play Hakeem if they played multiple times like Jokic and embiid? Do you think that highly of embiid?


All of a sudden beating Jimmy Butler in a Finals makes you some sort of killa. But losing by 45 to the Timberwolves means nothing. Getting swept by devin booker means nothing. Getting blown out 3 times by the warriors back to back to back in the playoffs means nothing. Being 0-2 in game 7's mean nothing.

He will nevvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvver crack the top 5. IDGAF what anaytics say. NEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. I have eyes..... I remember him choking against ANT...... i remember the warriors beating him like a pinata...... i remember him getting stopped by a over the hill bubble dwight......I REMEMBER..... no matter how much you suck his d[I]i[/I]ck.....ILL REMEMBER! Every......single....playoff flop[/QUOTE]
And to think that's STILL better than Embiid's playoff resume :(

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14984871]RRR3's not lying that you sound like a young casual fan with posts like this :lol

What Hakeem did in '94 & '95, carrying one of the weakest championship rosters ever in '94, beating Malone/Stockton, Barkley/KJ, Robinson/Rodman & Shaq/Penny all on the road in '95, eviscerating Ewing & Robinson h2h, and winning MVP & DPOY absolutely puts him in argument with Jokic if we're talking strictly peaks. Not even LeBron & Jordan are clearly above that.[/QUOTE]

The post you just made is why I specially said in my OP that "accolades/resume" do not matter, Jokic is legit beyond that.

1994/1995 are still weak years in the 3-point era. Hakeem can enjoy being the 11th best player of all time, but he's an entire tier below Jokic.

Also you are just pointing out 2 years which is a short peak. Jokic is going on 5 years of peak and could easily have more.

Mask the Embiid is going to be seething over Jokic for years. Jokic has a ring without another all star and he can't stand it.

He keeps bringing up getting swept by the top seed Suns without his 2nd and 3rd options while Embiid is an ECF virgin in the weaker conference.

:roll:

Jamal Murray shot on 40% FG and 31% 3pt in the playoffs last year. His efficiency was horrible.

1995 Clyde put up 20/7/6 on a blistering 120 ORTG in the playoffs.

At what point will you accept reality? If Jokic had that version of Clyde it would be even easier. Guy was a top 10 SG of all time. Jamal Murray is a footnote.

[QUOTE=tpols;14984856]John Starks.

:lol

2/18.

That was Hakeems 2nd option.[/QUOTE]

Hakim’s defense is the only reason that game was even played.

Hakeems individual defense literally prevented the Knicks from winning the title in game 6 when he switched onto Starks and blocked a title winning 3 that would have made Starks finals mvp since he’d have had 30/8 that game. And of course Hakeem held Ewing to 6/20 on top of it so he wouldn’t win.

John Starks entire career narrative changed because Hakeem could switch onto an athletic guard at 28 feet keep up and have the most consequential block arguably in NBA history.

it’s the biggest play of Hakeem’s career and would definitely be the biggest of Jokics as well. But to the general public, it doesn’t even exist because iconic defense really doesn’t count. Starks hits that shot and wins New York the title? It might be the most famous shot in history or right there with Jordans shot in 98.

But he didn’t. Hakeem blocks it…and defense doesn’t matter.

not necessarily talking about your opinion, but it’s definitely the opinion of most casual fans.

Plays like that don’t even exist in memory.

I’m not sure most people could even name a single block in history other than LeBron on Iguodala.

It’s like people don’t miss shots because of the defense. It isn’t a balance. People score what they score and what they don’t score is because of them not scoring better…not because the defense did its job.

Oh well. Nothing to be done about it at this point.

[QUOTE=tpols;14984879]Jamal Murray shot on 40% FG and 31% 3pt in the playoffs last year. His efficiency was horrible.

1995 Clyde put up 20/7/6 on a blistering 120 ORTG in the playoffs.

At what point will you accept reality? If Jokic had that version of Clyde it would be even easier. Guy was a top 10 SG of all time. Jamal Murray is a footnote.[/QUOTE]

Hakeem averaged 28/12/6 against shaq......an all time great....
Hakeem averaged 26 and held Patrick Ewing......an all time great.... to 38% from the field and 18 ppg
meanwhile, jokic gets to go up against "the great" bam adabayo in the finals.

Hakeem all defensives teams 9. Jokic. 0
Rebounding titles hakeem 2. jokic 0


The only reason Jokic has a ring is because of Jamal Murray. You know it. I know it. the world know it. Hakeem has a ring with no help.....you cannot say the same

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14984881]Hakim’s defense is the only reason that game was even played.

Hakeems individual defense literally prevented the Knicks from winning the title in game 6 when he switched onto Starks and blocked a title winning 3 that would have made Starks finals mvp since he’d have had 30/8 that game. And of course Hakeem held Ewing to 6/20 on top of it so he wouldn’t win.

John Starks entire career narrative changed because Hakeem could switch onto an athletic guard at 28 feet keep up and have the most consequential block arguably in NBA history.

it’s the biggest play of Hakeem’s career and would definitely be the biggest of Jokics as well. But to the general public, it doesn’t even exist because iconic defense really doesn’t count. Starks hits that shot and wins New York the title? It might be the most famous shot in history or right there with Jordans shot in 98.

But he didn’t. Hakeem blocks it…and defense doesn’t matter.

not necessarily talking about your opinion, but it’s definitely the opinion of most casual fans.

Plays like that don’t even exist in memory.

I’m not sure most people could even name a single block in history other than LeBron on Iguodala.

It’s like people don’t miss shots because of the defense. It isn’t a balance. People score what they score and what they don’t score is because of them not scoring better…not because the defense did its job.

Oh well. Nothing to be done about it at this point.[/QUOTE]

Jokic has already surpassed Hakeem. Jokic is > Bird, so if you want to argue Hakeem > Jokic, then you have to argue Hakeem > Bird.

2025 Jokic's career at this point is basically where Lebron's career was in 2013 (before the playoffs).

No one was arguing Hakeem > Lebron by 2013.

Hakeem wasn't a consistent player. When he was fully engaged he was scary but that frequently wasn't the case. He wasn't one of those guys who gave full effort night after night. At times he would settle for jumpers rather than trying to put pressure on the rim, and his jumper was just ok.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14984881]Hakim’s defense is the only reason that game was even played.

Hakeems individual defense literally prevented the Knicks from winning the title in game 6 when he switched onto Starks and blocked a title winning 3 that would have made Starks finals mvp since he’d have had 30/8 that game. And of course Hakeem held Ewing to 6/20 on top of it so he wouldn’t win.

John Starks entire career narrative changed because Hakeem could switch onto an athletic guard at 28 feet keep up and have the most consequential block arguably in NBA history.

it’s the biggest play of Hakeem’s career and would definitely be the biggest of Jokics as well. But to the general public, it doesn’t even exist because iconic defense really doesn’t count. Starks hits that shot and wins New York the title? It might be the most famous shot in history or right there with Jordans shot in 98.

But he didn’t. Hakeem blocks it…and defense doesn’t matter.

not necessarily talking about your opinion, but it’s definitely the opinion of most casual fans.

Plays like that don’t even exist in memory.

I’m not sure most people could even name a single block in history other than LeBron on Iguodala.

It’s like people don’t miss shots because of the defense. It isn’t a balance. People score what they score and what they don’t score is because of them not scoring better…not because the defense did its job.

Oh well. Nothing to be done about it at this point.[/QUOTE]

Cmon man you know damn well John Starks wasn't a star 2nd option on a title team historically.

I was asked who did Hakeem have at shotgun and replied who did his opponent have? It wasn't all that different and that was the point.

[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14984883]Hakeem averaged 28/12/6 against shaq......an all time great....
Hakeem averaged 26 and held Patrick Ewing......an all time great.... to 38% from the field and 18 ppg
meanwhile, jokic gets to go up against "the great" bam adabayo in the finals.

Hakeem all defensives teams 9. Jokic. 0
Rebounding titles hakeem 2. jokic 0


The only reason Jokic has a ring is because of Jamal Murray. You know it. I know it. the world know it. Hakeem has a ring with no help.....you cannot say the same[/QUOTE]

Jamal Murray is Tyrese Maxey bro. They're literally the same talent. The difference is Yolk maximized and won with his guy and embiid... is a playoff crash out.

It doesn't have to be black vs white. If Jokic was Nigerian and played the exact same way we would still rep him because basketball is basketball and greatness can come in any size, shape or color.

It's just incredibly ironic it took the shape of a tall fat white guy with dumpy athleticism. :lol

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14984881]Hakim’s defense is the only reason that game was even played.

Hakeems individual defense literally prevented the Knicks from winning the title in game 6 when he switched onto Starks and blocked a title winning 3 that would have made Starks finals mvp since he’d have had 30/8 that game. And of course Hakeem held Ewing to 6/20 on top of it so he wouldn’t win.

John Starks entire career narrative changed because Hakeem could switch onto an athletic guard at 28 feet keep up and have the most consequential block arguably in NBA history.

it’s the biggest play of Hakeem’s career and would definitely be the biggest of Jokics as well. But to the general public, it doesn’t even exist because iconic defense really doesn’t count. Starks hits that shot and wins New York the title? It might be the most famous shot in history or right there with Jordans shot in 98.

But he didn’t. Hakeem blocks it…and defense doesn’t matter.

not necessarily talking about your opinion, but it’s definitely the opinion of most casual fans.

Plays like that don’t even exist in memory.

I’m not sure most people could even name a single block in history other than LeBron on Iguodala.

It’s like people don’t miss shots because of the defense. It isn’t a balance. People score what they score and what they don’t score is because of them not scoring better…not because the defense did its job.

Oh well. Nothing to be done about it at this point.[/QUOTE]

And it’s a lot of casual fans casual takes in here. Which is why most are accepting Jokic over Hakeem. Comedy hour.