The Top 100 Greatest NBA Players Of All Time According To ISH

Kizzle - good work on this list. Thanks. I enjoyed he reading especially the top 50 threads which I followed closely. I didn't contribute much over the past months because my ball knowledge only goes back 15 years of NBA watching. (hmm... not that a similar lack stopped [I]some [/I]of the other posters!) Ultimately the list is subjective, and it seems, somewhat overly dominated by players with a recent public history. (For example, a player such as Gilbert Arenas deserves no mention whatsoever in a top 100 list of all time. He is justifyably left off.) All in all well done. Perhaps missing is Bill Laimbeer?

( Oh yes, one final thing. BULLS your comments are not very intelligent nor useful. Sigh. Ignore continues.)

[QUOTE]And what do you have to show that backs up that Payton wouldn't make it if they voted again. The evidence I have that he will is 1st, common sense, 2nd, most articles written agree. So what do you have on your side? Just that you "think"?[/QUOTE]

There is no evidence he would. None. How is a list made by people like us(say a magazine staff) or a list made by a couple others gonna show what the NBA voters would say? As if such things would make a guy like Wes unseld(a voter) decide he needed to remove Jerry Lucas for payton or something. Payton being top 50 isnt common sense. There are people ISH has listed in the 80s and 90s who were considered equal to or better than him in their primes.

You have 50 legends to begin with. And lots of legends who didnt even make it. Payton is no more a legend than Nique who didnt even make the first list.

There isnt one speck of evidence Payton would make it. Reggie Miller made Elliot Kalbs top 50, Slam made him #52, and TNT had him listed as one of the next 10. And I dont think hed make a top 50 redo either. About the only locks who didnt make it the first time are Duncan and Kobe. KG and AI probably arent even locks. Jason Kidd either.

Now me doing it personally...id put Payton over Drexler and a few others who made it. But he could be in the 60s very easily.


[QUOTE]You're right. He doesn't have the MVPs and wasn't that big of a part on his championship, but his individual greatness was so high he should be in. He outplayed players like John Stockton when it counted, and Stockton was in the early 20s, so I don't see how he could be close to Stockton. And he was a PG, PGs did a lot more things than your average SG. He was also a 2-Way Player, and easily a Top 5 2 Way-Guard, TOP 5, and that counts scoring and defense, the 2 most important categories when comparing all players. He really had no hole in his game, and was very good individually. Add to that the team success he enjoyed, Top 6 in Assists, Record 9 Straight Defensive 1st, and many other little things, he has a good case to be around 28.[/QUOTE]

You list his resume as if everyone listed doesnt have a great one. Hell #78 is 50 spots behind Gary and has 3 titles, a finals MVP, 7 finals appearances(all as a major player. He averaged 16/8/5 in the worst of his teams finals runs), 9 all D teams, an all nba first team, and upon his retirement was called by Magic the greatest defensive guard of all time. All of these people had great careers. Paytons does not stand out that much. Hes a big fish in a tank full of big fish.

[QUOTE]Its called the ABA. The ABA peaked in the 70s KBlaze8855. The players still playing in the NBA didn't have nearly as much competetion as they did in the 80s, or even 60s. With less competition, players had better stats, defenses were weaker, and it was easier to win championships, get more awards, and I can just go on with the affect that another league can have on the NBA.[/QUOTE]

We went over the ABA a few times and the more I look into it the less I see thats impressive. For one...the majority of ABA greats didnt do anything nearly as impressive in the NBA. And the better stats and all? The 60s stats are the biggest ever and they were pre ABA for the most part. How many 37ppg seasons were in the 70s? None. The 80s had one. how many seasons in the 70s did 3 people score 30ppg? 1. happened 2-3 times in the 80s(if you count Birds 29.98). Happened a couple years ago. In fact we had 3 people over 31 a game. If 70s stats are inflated so much then why were people getting better numbers in the 60s? Seems to me they just gradually decreased form the early 60s. From about 1974 on peoples numbers look about the same.

Cowens was a 19/14/5 player after the ABA was gone. Kareem had 2 MVPs and 13 al lstar games after the ABA. Hayes made 2 of his 3 all nba first teams post ABA and 2 of his 3 finals including the one he won. **** Magic won his first title the year after Hayes led his team to the finals. How much different you think the leage got in the 3 months between Hayes being in the finals and the Magic/Bird era? Nobody great before the merger failed to be after it unless they were just getting old(Havlicek for example who was 36 at the time).

[QUOTE]ABA was the reason the 70s weren't that great, and if you call 70s equal to any other era, you are really overrating the 70s.[/QUOTE]

Explain this to me....if Cowens isnt that good since he played in the 70s...why is Wills Reed better than Payton?


[QUOTE]Also, basketball is getting more popular and competition therefore is generally increasing with time, thats something modern players will always have over past players...[/QUOTE]

So players are worse as you go back in time but the 60s>the 70s? And not all of the 70s players. Just the ones you decide were not that good? Like cowens. Even though Reed is an exception I assume.




[QUOTE]Don't overrate and just look at awards/championships/stats in the 70s, I already explained why everything was inflated for them. Including stats, titles, and awards.[/QUOTE]

So you give Kareem high ranking based on what? The 80s? If you can dismiss what cowens did right next to Kareem and Reed...why do they get credit? His MVP right between Kareems 72 and 74 wins is less valid than Kareems? Reeds 71 and 73 titles factor in but not Cowens a year later and in 76? His 28/14 in the closeout game against Kareems Bucks was inflated somehow?

Why exactly do you choose to leave Cowens out and include other 70s greats? Or Elvin Hayes who was in the finals the year before Magic and was stil la superstar right next to them? How does that work exactly? Just count the players you feel like counting and dismiss the rest?



[QUOTE]If Nash was the clear cut MVP winner, you wouldn't be seeing me argue against that, and he would be really THAT good (Magic good). But he wasn't. And also, votes aren't everything, they are 1 argument, analysis is still neccesary.[/QUOTE]

I remember being told that what people think about what they saw was too subjective.

[QUOTE]Most have called me Open-Minded, you are one of the few that hasn't.[/QUOTE]

For one...ive never seen anyone call you open minded because youre about the only person I see even bring such a thing up. Also...most seem to think I know what im talking about. That factor in to you? I somehow doubt it.

[QUOTE=MiseryCityTexas]im just glad spencer haywood, adrian dantly, and artis gilmore made this list. these dudes get over looked miserably all the time.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, don't forget Alex English.

[QUOTE=BULLS]- Greatest offensive player the game has ever seen
- 2nd greatest defensive player the game has ever seen(behind his own teammate)
- 6 championships in the most difficult era in league history, as the undisputed #1 option
- Absurd stats(37.1 ppg, 32.5/8/8, and many more)
- Awards - 5 MVP's(really should be 10), 6 Finals MVP's, 10 time all NBA 1st team, DPOY, 9-time all-defensive first team
- Won with the worst supporting cast out of any player in league history(many fools like to argue that Pippen and Rodman was a great supporting cast, but the fact is a defensive-oriented SF and an offensively challenged PF do not make a great supporting cast).

I think it's pretty clear who the GOAT is. Jordan easily.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but why is it important to you that I "understand" this?

Anyway, I'm glad the season is starting soon and thanks for the great thread. BULLS, your opinions may not have any merit, but you sure do make an ass out of yourself.

1. Michael Jordan-6 rings/5 mvps/10 NBA 1st teams
2. Wilt Chamberlain-2 rings/4 mvps/7 NBA 1st teams
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar-6 rings/6 mvps/10 NBA 1st teams
4. Earvin 'Magic' Johnson-5 rings/3 mvps/9 NBA 1st teams
5. Larry Bird-3 rings/3 mvps/9 NBA 1st teams
6. Bill Russell-11 rings/5 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
7. Shaquille O'Neal-4 rings/1 mvp/8 NBA 1st teams
8. Oscar Robertson-1 ring/1 mvp/9 NBA 1st teams
9. Hakeem Olajuwon-2 rings/1 mvp/6 NBA 1st teams
10. Tim Duncan-4 rings/2 mvps/9 NBA 1st teams
11. Jerry West-1 ring/0 mvps/9 NBA 1st teams
12. Julius Erving-1 ring/1 mvp/5 NBA 1st teams
13. Moses Malone-1 ring/3 mvps/4 NBA 1st teams
14. Elgin Baylor-0 rings/0 mvps/10 NBA 1st teams
15. Bob Pettit-1 ring/2 mvps/10 NBA 1st teams
16. John Havlicek-8 rings/0 mvps/4 NBA 1st teams
17. Karl Malone-0 rings/2 mvps/11 NBA 1st teams
18. George Mikan-4 rings/0 mvps/5 NBA 1st teams
19. David Robinson-2 rings/1 mvp/4 NBA 1st teams
20. Isiah Thomas-2 rings/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
21. Charles Barkley-0 rings/1 mvp/5 NBA 1st teams
22. John Stockton-0 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
23. Bob Cousy-6 rings/1 mvp/10 NBA 1st teams
24. Kobe Bryant-3 rings/0 mvps/5 NBA 1st teams
25. Rick Barry-1 ring/0 mvps/5 NBA 1st teams
26. Scottie Pippen-6 rings/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
27. Clyde Drexler-1 ring/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
28. Gary Payton-1 ring/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
29. Willis Reed-2 rings/1 mvp/1 NBA 1st team
30. Patrick Ewing-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
31. Allen Iverson-0 rings/1 mvp/3 NBA 1st teams
32. Walt Frazier-2 rings/0 mvps/4 NBA 1st teams
33. Elvin Hayes-1 ring/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
34. George Gervin-0 rings/0 mvps/5 NBA 1st teams
35. Jason Kidd-0 rings/0 mvps/5 NBA 1st teams
36. Dave Cowens-2 rings/1 mvp/0 NBA 1st teams
37. Kevin Garnett-0 rings/1 mvp/3 NBA 1st teams
38. Bob McAdoo-2 rings/1 mvp/1 NBA 1st team
39. Nate Thurmond-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
40. Wes Unseld-1 ring/1 mvp/1 NBA 1st team
41. Kevin McHale-3 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
42. Dolph Schayes-1 ring/0 mvps/6 NBA 1st teams
43. Dominique Wilkins-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
44. Bill Walton-2 rings/1 mvp/1 NBA 1st team
45. Sam Jones-10 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
46. Kevin Johnson-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
47. Dennis Rodman-5 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
48. Dirk Nowitzki-0 rings/1 mvp/3 NBA 1st teams
49. Steve Nash-0 rings/2 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
50. Billy Cunningham-1 ring/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
-----
51. Nate 'Tiny' Archibald-1 ring/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
52. 'Pistol' Pete Maravich-0 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
53. Tracy McGrady-0 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
54. Hal Greer-1 ring/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
55. Jerry Lucas-1 ring/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
56. Robert Parish-4 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
57. Earl 'the Pearl' Monroe-1 ring/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
58. Bernard King-0 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
59. Artis Gilmore-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
60. Alex English-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
-----
61. James Worthy-3 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
62. Joe Dumars-2 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
63. Bill Sharman-4 rings/0 mvps/4 NBA 1st teams
64. Reggie Miller-0 rings/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
65. Paul Arizin-1 ring/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
66. Sidney Moncrief-0 rings/0 mvps/4 NBA 1st teams
67. Dave DeBusschere-2 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
68. Dave Bing-0 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
69. David Thompson-0 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
70. Lenny Wilkens-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
71. Adrian Dantley-0 rings/0mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
72. Bob Lanier-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
73. Neil Johntson-1 ring/0 mvps/4 NBA 1st teams
74. Walt Bellamy-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
75. Vince Carter-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
76. Spencer Haywood-1 ring/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
77. Ray Allen-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
78. Dennis Johnson-3 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
79. Paul Pierce-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
80. Dikembe Mutombo-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
81. Connie Hawkins-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
82. Chris Webber-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
83. Chris Mullin-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
84. Grant Hill-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
85. Mitch Richmond-1 ring/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
86. Dan Issel-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
87. 'Jumpin' Joe Fulks-1 ring/0 mvps/3 BAA 1st teams
88. Alonzo Mourning-1 ring/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
89. Shawn Kemp-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
90. Mark Price-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
91. Anfernee 'Penny' Hardaway-0 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
92. Tommy Heinsohn-10 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
93. George McGinnis-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
94. Tim Hardaway-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
95. Mel Daniels-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
96. Bob Davies-1 ring/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
97. Tom Chambers-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
98. Maurice Cheeks-1 ring/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
99. Ben Wallace-1 ring/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
100. Mark Aguirre-2 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams

TOO HIGH

[B][SIZE="3"]IMO[/SIZE][/B]


#10 - duncan
#45 - rodman (why is he even there?)
#28 - payton
#53 - mcgrady
#46 - johnson

my worry was that Iverson was going to go 15-20. i dont necessarily see #31 as an outrage at all. Just going by stats alone he's the 3rd greatest scorer the game has ever seen. i thought that fact was going to make young people vote him in at a ridiculous number.

but its not secret that guys like AI and Dr. J will always get some kind of free pass when it comes to rankings because of their influence in the game and outside of the game.

Still the influence, the MVPs, the clutch playoff performances (Iverson has 2 of the greatest game 7 performances in NBA history), and the scoring and steals averages are the reasons why Iverson is fair at #31.

when you see guys like Jordan and Bird praising Iverson, i think thats a pretty good sign that he's better than you think.... but maybe they just can't "see through" him like -primetime- can :D

[QUOTE=BULLS]Iverson is way too low. When you see guys like West, Havlicek, Pettit, Mikan, Cousy, and Barry ahead of Iverson, you know the list is garbage.

Iverson is around the 17-20 range.[/QUOTE]

lets not get crazy. but i think this is your job around here :lol:

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]There is no evidence he would. None. How is a list made by people like us(say a magazine staff) or a list made by a couple others gonna show what the NBA voters would say? As if such things would make a guy like Wes unseld(a voter) decide he needed to remove Jerry Lucas for payton or something. Payton being top 50 isnt common sense. There are people ISH has listed in the 80s and 90s who were considered equal to or better than him in their primes.

You have 50 legends to begin with. And lots of legends who didnt even make it. Payton is no more a legend than Nique who didnt even make the first list.

There isnt one speck of evidence Payton would make it. Reggie Miller made Elliot Kalbs top 50, Slam made him #52, and TNT had him listed as one of the next 10. And I dont think hed make a top 50 redo either. About the only locks who didnt make it the first time are Duncan and Kobe. KG and AI probably arent even locks. Jason Kidd either.

Now me doing it personally...id put Payton over Drexler and a few others who made it. But he could be in the 60s very easily.

[/quote]

Give me one legitimate reason Payton would not get voted in by the "NBA Voters". I mean, do they have something against him?

I was saying that the "General Consensus" or most, if not all, the Top 50 lists made have Gary Payton in there. So give me 1 reason why the "NBA Voters" for some reason wouldn't give the nod to Payton. Most have been putting Gary Payton in the Top 50, so I don't see why NBA voters won't. Give me 1 legitimate reason.


All I am saying is the general consensus is Payton = Top 50 easily, and that means MOST LIKELY Payton would be in Top 50 for NBA voters as well, not [I]"I Doubt he gets voted in at Top 50"[/I]

[QUOTE]
You list his resume as if everyone listed doesnt have a great one. Hell #78 is 50 spots behind Gary and has 3 titles, a finals MVP, 7 finals appearances(all as a major player. He averaged 16/8/5 in the worst of his teams finals runs), 9 all D teams, an all nba first team, and upon his retirement was called by Magic the greatest defensive guard of all time. All of these people had great careers. Paytons does not stand out that much. Hes a big fish in a tank full of big fish.[/QUOTE]

Don't tell me you think DJ > GP? And Payton didn't play at Magic's time, or Magic would've said GP is the best defensive PG.


[QUOTE]We went over the ABA a few times and the more I look into it the less I see thats impressive. For one...the majority of ABA greats didnt do anything nearly as impressive in the NBA. And the better stats and all? The 60s stats are the biggest ever and they were pre ABA for the most part. How many 37ppg seasons were in the 70s? None. The 80s had one. how many seasons in the 70s did 3 people score 30ppg? 1. happened 2-3 times in the 80s(if you count Birds 29.98). Happened a couple years ago. In fact we had 3 people over 31 a game. If 70s stats are inflated so much then why were people getting better numbers in the 60s? Seems to me they just gradually decreased form the early 60s. From about 1974 on peoples numbers look about the same.

Cowens was a 19/14/5 player after the ABA was gone. Kareem had 2 MVPs and 13 al lstar games after the ABA. Hayes made 2 of his 3 all nba first teams post ABA and 2 of his 3 finals including the one he won. **** Magic won his first title the year after Hayes led his team to the finals. How much different you think the leage got in the 3 months between Hayes being in the finals and the Magic/Bird era? Nobody great before the merger failed to be after it unless they were just getting old(Havlicek for example who was 36 at the time).

[/QUOTE]

KBlaze, use your head.

What happens in a league when there is less competition than there should be? Think about it for a second. EVERYTHING will be easier to do, from scoring, to stats, to awards, to All-Star App.

For example, pretend Eastern Confrence was their own league (ABA), and all their was the West (NBA). And all the Western teams got their players redistributed to 30 teams. Well it will be easier to put up good numbers first of all, since you are the center of the team. 2nd of all, getting All-Star App. and All-NBA Teams wouldn't be as hard with less competition, and the same goes with the MVP award.

Less Competition is = things are easier.

[QUOTE]

Explain this to me....if Cowens isnt that good since he played in the 70s...why is Wills Reed better than Payton?[/QUOTE]

Willis Reed won his 2 titles in the early 70s. That is arguably the most competitive Era of basketball. Give him props, he started in the late 60s and was great in the early 70s and won 2 titles, MVP, and everything then. Thats why.




[QUOTE]So players are worse as you go back in time but the 60s>the 70s? And not all of the 70s players. Just the ones you decide were not that good? Like cowens. Even though Reed is an exception I assume.[/QUOTE]

Well really, the big jump in basketball popularity came in different places. How many great players from the 60s are recognized vs. the ones in the 70s? The 60s might have had better best players, but I think more 70s players are remembered, just more popularity.

And really, 80s was the big jump. All I am saying is Basketball is more popular and competitive than it was 40 years ago. And also, many from the 60s also had to do their own things, the players in the 70s really weren't that much better, but should've gone further with what the legends from the 60s did. You know, "Based his game on..."



[QUOTE]

So you give Kareem high ranking based on what? The 80s? If you can dismiss what cowens did right next to Kareem and Reed...why do they get credit? His MVP right between Kareems 72 and 74 wins is less valid than Kareems? Reeds 71 and 73 titles factor in but not Cowens a year later and in 76? His 28/14 in the closeout game against Kareems Bucks was inflated somehow?

Why exactly do you choose to leave Cowens out and include other 70s greats? Or Elvin Hayes who was in the finals the year before Magic and was stil la superstar right next to them? How does that work exactly? Just count the players you feel like counting and dismiss the rest?[/QUOTE]

One again, Reed, Kareem, both were big in the Early 70s, a very compeitive Era in basketball. Cowens emerged after all the great 70s Teams fell, and ABA got at his peak. Think about it...

[QUOTE=haji_d_robertas]
14. Elgin Baylor-0 rings/0 mvps/10 NBA 1st teams
[/QUOTE]
why is this guy #14????

0 rings

0 mvps

[QUOTE=-primetime-]why is this guy #14????

0 rings

0 mvps[/QUOTE]
One of the greatest ever, no titles but went to the Finals 8 times, losing 3 games 7's. No MVP's but I think six top 5 finishes and I'm pretty sure a couple were at number 2.


You also gotta look at the era he played in, Wilt/Kareem/Russell/Robertson those are 4 top 10 players (from the list) alone in his era, a reason why he never won MVP and titles.

[QUOTE]Give me one legitimate reason Payton would not get voted in by the "NBA Voters". I mean, do they have something against him?[/QUOTE]

I think you are looking at it the wrong way. Im not saying there need to be a reason for him to not make it. hes just one of a long list of people(longer than 50) who could deserve it. Most of the guys already in are those borderline iconic types and of those who arent...there are enough new guys to replace them that Payton could getl eft out like Nique did.

[QUOTE]I was saying that the "General Consensus" or most, if not all, the Top 50 lists made have Gary Payton in there. So give me 1 reason why the "NBA Voters" for some reason wouldn't give the nod to Payton. Most have been putting Gary Payton in the Top 50, so I don't see why NBA voters won't. Give me 1 legitimate reason.[/QUOTE]

Already have. The mere fact that there are more than 50 players on the general level of those in the top 50 is reason enough he could fail to make it.


[QUOTE]All I am saying is the general consensus is Payton = Top 50 easily, and that means MOST LIKELY Payton would be in Top 50 for NBA voters as well, not "I Doubt he gets voted in at Top 50"[/QUOTE]

Payton like Nique is one of those fringe guys. Nobdoy who made it the first time has gotten any worse since and hes not surpassed enough to make up for it. For him to make it a lot of legends would have to disregard a number of their contemporaries and the whole reason the old school guys got to vote is so every era would be represented.

Let me put it this way. I kinda see it like a challenged play in the NFL.

Payton has not had a career that would overturn the first decision. Not indisputable evidence. Duncan and Kobe have. AI might have(the MVP and 4 scoring titles help a lot). Payton is not one of those players. If its a challenged play...too many of the first 50 stand for Payton to get in I believe.

Duncan wins his challenge. Kobe wins his.

Nobody else is all that likely. Not when you look at who is already in.


[QUOTE]Don't tell me you think DJ > GP? And Payton didn't play at Magic's time, or Magic would've said GP is the best defensive PG.[/QUOTE]

I dont think DJ>Payton but I think their careers arent nearly as different as their listing here. 28 to 82 is a massive change.

And there is no way of knowing that. Magic says a lot of things. Hes not the most consistient guy.


[QUOTE]KBlaze, use your head.

What happens in a league when there is less competition than there should be? Think about it for a second. EVERYTHING will be easier to do, from scoring, to stats, to awards, to All-Star App.[/QUOTE]

Yet even with these easier to get stats...stats were worse than the 60s and around the same area as the 80s. And the only guys in the ABA on an NBA MVP level were Doc and a young Moses Malone who was a few years from that status. And as I said...if the ABA made guys great why did they continue to be great after the ABA? Cowens was about as productive as ever and Hayes did most of his winning post ABA.

[QUOTE]For example, pretend Eastern Confrence was their own league (ABA), and all their was the West (NBA). And all the Western teams got their players redistributed to 30 teams. Well it will be easier to put up good numbers first of all, since you are the center of the team. 2nd of all, getting All-Star App. and All-NBA Teams wouldn't be as hard with less competition, and the same goes with the MVP award.

Less Competition is = things are easier.[/QUOTE]

If the ABA had an equal split with the NBA talent wise that would be a good comparison. But they didnt. There is a reason Doctor J went from being a 30/11/5 guy to a 21 a game playeri n the NBA. And charlie Scott went from a 33 a game player to the 20s. Why Brisker went from 29 a game i nthe ABA to 13 in the NBA one season later. Why Spencer Haywood was putting up wilt numbers(30/20) i nthe ABA and not the NBA. Barnes goes from 24 a game to 10. Gilmore putting up like 24 and 18. Billy Cunningham went to the ABA and won MVP with his NBA career starting to decline(he was 30 back when players retired around that time..he retired at 32).

The ABA was an inferior league with a fraction of the NBAs fans lesser players due to less money to give them and by the time the NBA took them in the ABA had been reduced to very few teams. Only 4 joined the NBA and the other 2 just got broken up. I think the only other two that existed then had folded before the merger. The ABA died and was never the equal of the NBA in talent or anything else.


[QUOTE]Willis Reed won his 2 titles in the early 70s. That is arguably the most competitive Era of basketball. Give him props, he started in the late 60s and was great in the early 70s and won 2 titles, MVP, and everything then. Thats why.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you didnt notice but in Reeds second title winning season...in those early 70s youre praising...that was cowens MVP season. And Cowens first title was won in 1974...one season after Reed. A 73 title is praise worthy but a 73 MVP isnt...and a 73 title is great but a 74 one is inferior? That makes sense to you? Reeds gets credit and love for the 73 title when Cowens was MVP and leading a 68 win team the same year and won a title the next one. You really telling me that?



[QUOTE]Well really, the big jump in basketball popularity came in different places. How many great players from the 60s are recognized vs. the ones in the 70s? The 60s might have had better best players, but I think more 70s players are remembered, just more popularity.[/QUOTE]

Lot of overlap. The only 2 big 70s stars who were not 60s stars too are Kareem and Doctor J. Gervin is remembered but he was in his peak from like 87 to 84. Earl Monroe was 60s and 70s. Oscar was mostly 60s but some 70s. Wilt was a bit of both. West too. Id say 55-65 isnt all that popular but 65-75 is about normal.

[QUOTE]And really, 80s was the big jump. All I am saying is Basketball is more popular and competitive than it was 40 years ago. And also, many from the 60s also had to do their own things, the players in the 70s really weren't that much better, but should've gone further with what the legends from the 60s did. You know, "Based his game on..."[/QUOTE]

Has anyone ever gone further than what the legends from the 60s did? The only way to consider anyone the equal of the 60s greats is to dismiss the eras accomplishments. Russell and Wilt basically destroy everyone if you dont. 70s didnt have a Russell or Wilt...but they had Kareem. 60s had a couple possible GOATS(maybe 3 depending on how you feel about oscar). 70s had 1. 80s had 2. 90s had 1. We have none now but he had one a few years ago.

The 70s are the least acclaimed era....but I dont think its due to inferior players. 70s seemed like a "team" era to me more than a player era. Reeds knicks, Cowens Celtics, Barrys Warriors, Waltons Blazers, DJs Sonics, and so on. Bunch of "scrappy" ensemble teams without one GOAT level guy.


[QUOTE]One again, Reed, Kareem, both were big in the Early 70s, a very compeitive Era in basketball. Cowens emerged after all the great 70s Teams fell, and ABA got at his peak. Think about it...[/QUOTE]

Seems you only think 1973 is the early 70s when its Reed in question and not Dave.

How the hell is Dirk higher than Steve Nash?
And Ed Macauley should have made this list, take Big Ben out.