Big Market Team Fallacy

[QUOTE=gasolina]And where did you get that from? A blog? :roll:

Nobody's saying market size equates to wins. All were saying is that a bigger market size gives a team more spending power and that's an advantage.

Don't understand why you relate market size to "wins" and being successful. Just because not all other big market teams were as stupid as you Knicks, you think you coul lump them all up.

Build a team with current player salaries with only $56 million to live and play in Wisconsin. I"ll build one for $96 million to live and play in Los Angeles. I'm pretty sure I can build a better team.

Don't really understand why you don't get this. Give one kid $5 and another $10 and tell them to spend all their money on a the same candy store, let's see wo gets back with the most candy.

End this MFN thread[/QUOTE]

Of course. Attack the source. Don't debate the facts. Why should I expect anything less.


[url]http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/32841/the-payroll-and-competitive-balance-myth[/url]

[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1026/nba_g_payroll_sy_576.jpg[/IMG]


[QUOTE]Here is an updated chart of the best drafting teams and the worst drafting teams over the past decade, along with their winning percentage and dollars spent over that time. Also, it is color-coded to make visualizing the data easier (greater the number, greener the cell).

What do we find? New Orleans, San Antonio and Cleveland have done the most with the draft over the past decade. The Hornets built a perennial playoff team on the cheap by picking Chris Paul at No. 4 and finding an All-Star at No. 18 in David West. They squeezed out 18.5 wins above what we

[QUOTE=pmj]The point of the thread is that big markets don't really have a COMPETITIVE advantage.

[B]You can't just point out one historically crappy team like the Grizz and compare it to another, that's anecdotal evidence. Look at the stats across the board.[/B]

Will smaller markets always find it harder to make money? Yes.

The main way that is solved is by revenue sharing, like in the NFL, NHL, MLB. The NBA has the worst revenue sharing. If a team still can't be profitable after they adjust revenue sharing to be more in line with other leagues (which they're supposed to be), then you have to question whether a franchise in certain places is sustainable.[/QUOTE]


Basically. Remember every big market team is like the Lakers, but the lowly Spurs were just super duper lucky to catch lightning in a bottle. :violin:

[QUOTE=pmj]The point of the thread is that big markets don't really have a COMPETITIVE advantage. [/QUOTE]
Won't having more money give you a competitive advantage? Given the fact that you have to PAY players? :facepalm

And I agree, market doesn't correlate to wins, but to completely ignore the fact that the Lakers, Knicks, and Mavs has more money to spend than the rest of the league, and not treat that as an an advantage, is just idiotic.

[QUOTE=gasolina]Won't having more money give you a competitive advantage? Given the fact that you have to PAY players? :facepalm

And I agree, market doesn't correlate to wins, but to completely ignore the fact that the Lakers, Knicks, and Mavs has more money to spend than the rest of the league, and not treat that as an an advantage, is just idiotic.[/QUOTE]

I am an advocate for more revenue sharing. Should be 1 league, not 30 teams.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]I am an advocate for more revenue sharing. Should be 1 league, not 30 teams.[/QUOTE]
Why are you pro-revenue sharing then?

Its really not hard.

There is an advantage to some franchises....just a fact. Now, whether or not those advantages or taken advantage of or how important they become over time is up for debate.

But this is about winning titles for those smaller market teams. That is what they said in 06 when they signed the petition and that is what they are saying now. Those teams feel like they just don't have the same chance to challenge for titles....and I agree.

And also, the points about management are very good. Management is the most important factor for success...totally agree. However, what you can't discount is that its harder to manage a team with less money and a less desirable market/location....

Can it be done? Of course, but its harder. We can't ignore the real possibility that some of the owners/gm's of these teams with inherent disadvantages are actually very good at what they do, but its the circumstances that impact the decisions they make at times.

You have to look at this more with an open mind. It can't just be good vs bad management. So much goes into facilitating certain management decisions. Which once again brings us back to the simple fact that every team is not on the same playing field....and it impacts everything. Its just too narrow minded to think otherwise.

[QUOTE=gasolina]Why are you pro-revenue sharing then?[/QUOTE]

Because I think all 30 shareholders of NBA stock should get roughly the same dividend. They are only competitors against each other on the court. As a business they are all one and the same, and shouldn't compete with each for market share. What's good for Memphis, should be good for NY, should be good for San Antonio, etc, etc.

Maybe some of the shareholders in states with higher taxes like NY, and California should get a little more than the shareholders in Texas or Florida since they have a lighter tax burden.

So when a big market wins a title, its just the one big market properly using its advantage. When a small market wins a title, its a lucky chance that they got the one-good player.

got it.

Here's news for everyone, if we've leanred anything from the title-winning teams of the last 60 years....the way to be a title-caliber team is by getting a great player. Usually the team drafts and keeps that player. The way to win a title is by having a great player and getting a bunch of good bounces.

As far as I can see, the only proof of this big market advantage is the LAL, which is perfectly ocuntered by SA. WELL SA DRAFTED A GREAT PLAYER. So do the LAL. SA WAS WELL BUILT AROUND HIM. So did the LAL. No one choose to go to LA because its LA (since '99).

BUT THEY HAVE MORE MONEY!!!!

Yeah, but there is a cap. All teams can only spend so much.

BUT PLAYERS FLOCK TO THE BIG MARKETS! Proof --- please proof aside from the threat of Deron, Howard, and Paul leaving.

BUT BIG MARKETS HAVE MORE MONEY!!! They can only spend so much.

BIG MARKETS CAN DOMINATE!!! ONE (1) Big market has dominated for the last 12 years and so has one small market. Most of the big markets have been between ok and sh!tty.

ITS UNFAIR BIG MARKET BIG MARKET BIG MARKET....ITS A FACT BIG MARKET.

Its a fallacy. There is no objective evidence of the Big Markets asserting any edge during under the 99 CBA.

[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]So when a big market wins a title, its just the one big market properly using its advantage. When a small market wins a title, its a lucky chance that they got the one-good player.

got it.

Here's news for everyone, if we've leanred anything from the title-winning teams of the last 60 years....the way to be a title-caliber team is by getting a great player. Usually the team drafts and keeps that player. The way to win a title is by having a great player and getting a bunch of good bounces.

As far as I can see, the only proof of this big market advantage is the LAL, which is perfectly ocuntered by SA. WELL SA DRAFTED A GREAT PLAYER. So do the LAL. SA WAS WELL BUILT AROUND HIM. So did the LAL. No one choose to go to LA because its LA (since '99).

BUT THEY HAVE MORE MONEY!!!!

Yeah, but there is a cap. All teams can only spend so much.

BUT PLAYERS FLOCK TO THE BIG MARKETS! Proof --- please proof aside from the threat of Deron, Howard, and Paul leaving.

BUT BIG MARKETS HAVE MORE MONEY!!! They can only spend so much.

BIG MARKETS CAN DOMINATE!!! ONE (1) Big market has dominated for the last 12 years and so has one small market. Most of the big markets have been between ok and sh!tty.

ITS UNFAIR BIG MARKET BIG MARKET BIG MARKET....ITS A FACT BIG MARKET.

Its a fallacy. There is no objective evidence of the Big Markets asserting any edge during under the 99 CBA.[/QUOTE]

wait....what?

there is no cap effectively.....you can go into the luxury tax and spend whatever you want really.

this era? shaq left for the lakers...changing the landscape of the nba. kobe forced his way to the lakers in the draft...changing the landscape after refusing to play for the nets....or at least his agent said enough to scare coach cal from away.

the raptors have lost three potential franchise players....or at least 3 high quality players. the cavs lost one of the best players ever. melo forced his way out. the jazz traded deron in fear.

kg/allen joined up on the celtics...a big market team.

paul and howard are about to leave.

cuban basically bought his team.....the mavs have actually had poor management on the whole...cuban has just spent his way out of trouble. again, one of the many advantages of having more money.

why do these big name players continue to go to desirable franchises in bigger markets? if its a non factor, why isn't dwight howard talking about going to the hornets? why isn't paul talking about staying and recruiting. same with lebron/bosh? melo?

why do all these guys want to go and play in bigger markets if it means nothing and its not an advantage?

why are all these owners constantly complaining about these advantages if they don't exist?

wake up please.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]wait....what?

[B]there is no cap effectively[/B].....you can go into the luxury tax and spend whatever you want really.

[/QUOTE]

You don't really believe this, do you?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]there is no cap effectively.....you can go into the luxury tax and spend whatever you want really..[/QUOTE]

We all know this isn't true. Under the post-99 rules, there is a limit to the size of the contract you can give out (i.e. the max contract). The home team can always offer more. Also, of course there's a cap. You can keep signing your own guys for more and use the mid-level, but no matter how big NY is, when they were over the cap, they could not sign stars to contracts.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]this era? shaq left for the lakers...changing the landscape of the nba. [/QUOTE]

That was pre-99 agreement.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41] kobe forced his way to the lakers in the draft...changing the landscape after refusing to play for the nets....or at least his agent said enough to scare coach cal from away.[/QUOTE]

Much like Francis forced his way to (big market?) Houston.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]the raptors have lost three potential franchise players....or at least 3 high quality players. [/QUOTE]

T-Mac, who left because he wanted minutes. Carter, who was traded and forced his way tooooo a small market. Bosh, who left a medium market for a medium market.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]the cavs lost one of the best players ever.[/QUOTE]

Medium market to medium market

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]melo forced his way out.[/QUOTE]

True.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]the jazz traded deron in fear.[/QUOTE]

Not a big market/small market thing...a sick of Utah thing.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]kg/allen joined up on the celtics...a big market team.[/QUOTE]

Yes...they were TRADED to the Celtics. Neither of them asked for the Celts. They may have they asked to leave their current-bad-environments...but they didn't ask for Celts.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]paul and howard are about to leave.[/QUOTE]

Yeah...but we don't know where. And if the big market edge is money, look at what NO and Orl have spent to keep these guys happy. BIG MARKET MONEY.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]cuban basically bought his team.....the mavs have actually had poor management on the whole...cuban has just spent his way out of trouble. again, one of the many advantages of having more money.[/QUOTE]

Traded for Marion (he had worn out his wlecome everywhere else), traded for Kidd, traded for Terry (and kept him) signed a TC that no one else wanted...and scouted Europe. Totally bought that team.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]why do these big name players continue to go to desirable franchises in bigger markets? if its a non factor, why isn't dwight howard talking about going to the hornets? why isn't paul talking about staying and recruiting. same with lebron/bosh? melo? [/QUOTE]

Seems like alot of them were traded. Those that left on purporse chose markets for a number of factors...size appears to be the least of them.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]why do all these guys want to go and play in bigger markets if it means nothing and its not an advantage? [/QUOTE]

Lets count the guys who chose to go to bigger markets...Assuming the Kobe story that we've never found out the truth on is true, I'll give you him. I'll also give you melo. That's 2. 2 in 13 years. OMG ITS A TREND!!!

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]why are all these owners constantly complaining about these advantages if they don't exist?[/QUOTE]


Because small market owners seem to be complaining about everything.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]wake up please.[/QUOTE]

Exactly

I take exception to the "Melo forced his way out" comment. The Knicks more than compensated the Nuggets for Carmelo Anthony. Forcing his way out would mean he gave them an ultimatum or "trade me or else" which he never did. He continued to play basketball for them. Had he sat down and said he will never suit up for Denver again, then you can say he forced his way out. He played there for over 7.5 years. He was about to become a free agent, which is HIS RIGHT. Teams don't get the rights to a player forever. Eventually they have to be given a chance at free agency. This has been fought at the Supreme Court level. Just because a team drafts a player 8 years ago, doesn't mean they get to benefit from him forever. The fact that they got any pieces at all for him, let alone draining the Knicks of almost all their assets, shows that he didn't "force" his way out.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]I take exception to the "Melo forced his way out" comment. The Knicks more than compensated the Nuggets for Carmelo Anthony. Forcing his way out would mean he gave them an ultimatum or "trade me or else" which he never did. He continued to play basketball for them. Had he sat down and said he will never suit up for Denver again, then you can say he forced his way out. He played there for over 7.5 years. He was about to become a free agent, which is HIS RIGHT. Teams don't get the rights to a player forever. Eventually they have to be given a chance at free agency. This has been fought at the Supreme Court level. Just because a team drafts a player 8 years ago, doesn't mean they get to benefit from him forever. The fact that they got any pieces at all for him, let alone draining the Knicks of almost all their assets, shows that he didn't "force" his way out.[/QUOTE]

Right, but the Big Market edge people need someone to support their argument that players are flocking to Big Markets. Melo is the one who recently left for a market size upgrade. They have so few examples, I'm not gonna nitpick the one they've got.

[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]Right, but the Big Market edge people need someone to support their argument that players are flocking to Big Markets. Melo is the one who recently left for a market size upgrade. They have so few examples, I'm not gonna nitpick the one they've got.[/QUOTE]

Not only that. He was BORN in NY. His wife is FROM NY. I am sure she was whispering in his ear that she wanted to go back to NY rather than stay in Denver. I am sure that played a big factor.

[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]We all know this isn't true. Under the post-99 rules, there is a limit to the size of the contract you can give out (i.e. the max contract). The home team can always offer more. Also, of course there's a cap. You can keep signing your own guys for more and use the mid-level, but no matter how big NY is, when they were over the cap, they could not sign stars to contracts.



That was pre-99 agreement.



Much like Francis forced his way to (big market?) Houston.



T-Mac, who left because he wanted minutes. Carter, who was traded and forced his way tooooo a small market. Bosh, who left a medium market for a medium market.



Medium market to medium market



True.



Not a big market/small market thing...a sick of Utah thing.



Yes...they were TRADED to the Celtics. Neither of them asked for the Celts. They may have they asked to leave their current-bad-environments...but they didn't ask for Celts.



Yeah...but we don't know where. And if the big market edge is money, look at what NO and Orl have spent to keep these guys happy. BIG MARKET MONEY.



Traded for Marion (he had worn out his wlecome everywhere else), traded for Kidd, traded for Terry (and kept him) signed a TC that no one else wanted...and scouted Europe. Totally bought that team.



Seems like alot of them were traded. Those that left on purporse chose markets for a number of factors...size appears to be the least of them.



Lets count the guys who chose to go to bigger markets...Assuming the Kobe story that we've never found out the truth on is true, I'll give you him. I'll also give you melo. That's 2. 2 in 13 years. OMG ITS A TREND!!!




Because small market owners seem to be complaining about everything.



Exactly[/QUOTE]


i will say it again...its not just the size of the market. when we say big market...we mean desirable as well.

nobody in the ****ing world wants to live in cleveland over miami. wake the **** up dude.

nobody wants to play in milwaukee over NY, Dallas, Miami, Boston, La....

those are ****ing advantages....so is having a 100 million dollar payroll vs a 50 million dollar payroll.

i like that there are advantages to the bigger markets because its better for the game. no casual fans give a crap about any of the small market teams. its why the spurs vs cavs finals set the league back in 07. nobody watched....and you had probably the most exciting player in the league facing off against one of the 8 best players all time. did anyone care enough to watch? nope.

i'm done with this thread.

you can bump it when star players start forcing trades to small market teams and big time free agents start choosing the bucks and hornets over the knicks and lakers.

and you can bump it when small market teams start winning titles consistently.

good luck.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]and you can bump it when small market teams start winning titles consistently.

[/QUOTE]

That is small market teams or medium market teams that are not in desireable locations---other than SA...like Detroit.

No one was forcing their way to NY when Isiah was the GM of the Knicks, just like no one forces their way to the Clippers. When the Knicks got Donnie Walsh, that's when the Knicks started looking like a brighter place to be.

The management and direction of a team are more critical than the actual location of the team. If the Bucks or Bobcats went out and hired Jerry West or Donnie Walsh, I bet they would be more attractive places to play.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]I take exception to the "Melo forced his way out" comment. The Knicks more than compensated the Nuggets for Carmelo Anthony. Forcing his way out would mean he gave them an ultimatum or "trade me or else" which he never did. He continued to play basketball for them. Had he sat down and said he will never suit up for Denver again, then you can say he forced his way out. He played there for over 7.5 years. He was about to become a free agent, which is HIS RIGHT. Teams don't get the rights to a player forever. Eventually they have to be given a chance at free agency. This has been fought at the Supreme Court level. Just because a team drafts a player 8 years ago, doesn't mean they get to benefit from him forever. The fact that they got any pieces at all for him, let alone draining the Knicks of almost all their assets, shows that he didn't "force" his way out.[/QUOTE]

Melo did force himself out. I have no problem with it because he played for us for a long time. Don't kid yourself tho, Melo wanted out and he wanted to go to NY. Market played a huuuuuge role too, I'd say the only role actually. He wouldn't sign the extension with Denver. Period. He helped Denver like crazy so probably a bad example of a guy forcing his way out.

Do you not realize why NY had to give up so much for him? Not because of Denver but because of Melo. Melo wasn't hitting FA. If he did he could stand to lose alot of money with the lockout coming. If it was any other year he would have been traded for peanuts .. similar to a Vince Carter deal. Probably would have got back Chandler + a future 1st or something. Melo wanted NY but also wanted to get his extension. That's the only reason Denver had leverage.

The teams he listed for trade were NY, Houston, L.A Clippers, NJ. NY being the obvious number 1.

[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]Lets count the guys who chose to go to bigger markets...Assuming the Kobe story that we've never found out the truth on is true, I'll give you him. I'll also give you melo. That's 2. 2 in 13 years. OMG ITS A TREND!!! [/QUOTE]

Now list the franchise players who left a big market team for a mid/small market team. Go.

[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]Melo did force himself out. I have no problem with it because he played for us for a long time. Don't kid yourself tho, Melo wanted out and he wanted to go to NY. Market played a huuuuuge role too, I'd say the only role actually. He wouldn't sign the extension with Denver. Period. He helped Denver like crazy so probably a bad example of a guy forcing his way out.

Do you not realize why NY had to give up so much for him? Not because of Denver but because of Melo. Melo wasn't hitting FA. If he did he could stand to lose alot of money with the lockout coming. If it was any other year he would have been traded for peanuts .. similar to a Vince Carter deal. Probably would have got back Chandler + a future 1st or something. Melo wanted NY but also wanted to get his extension. That's the only reason Denver had leverage.

The teams he listed for trade were NY, Houston, L.A Clippers, NJ. NY being the obvious number 1.[/QUOTE]

Forcing your way out is what Albert Haynesworth did. He literally refused to practice or play. Melo didn't do anything like that at all. He was going to be a free agent, and was going to have his choice for next team. All 3 parties wanted something. NY wanted Melo, Denver wanted as much as they could get for a soon to be free agent, and Melo wanted $$$ and to play in NY. They reached an amicable decision, and all parties should be happy of the outcome.

Again, teams don't have rights to players for infinity. The reserve clause has already been fought at the Supreme Court. The Seattle Mariners didn't get compensation for Alex Rodriguez when he signed with Texas. When a player becomes a free agent, they have their say where they want to play.

[QUOTE=DJ Leon Smith]Now list the franchise players who left a big market team for a mid/small market team. Go.[/QUOTE]

Shaq to Miami from LA.
Barkley to Phoenix from Philly.
Elton Brand to Philly from LA. - Philly is not a small market, but it's smaller than LA.
Allen Iverson to Denver from Philly.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Forcing your way out is what Albert Haynesworth did. He literally refused to practice or play. Melo didn't do anything like that at all. He was going to be a free agent, and was going to have his choice for next team. All 3 parties wanted something. NY wanted Melo, Denver wanted as much as they could get for a soon to be free agent, and Melo wanted $$$ and to play in NY. They reached an amicable decision, and all parties should be happy of the outcome.

Again, teams don't have rights to players for infinity. The reserve clause has already been fought at the Supreme Court. The Seattle Mariners didn't get compensation for Alex Rodriguez when he signed with Texas. When a player becomes a free agent, they have their say where they want to play.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I guess your right. I don't have any bad blood with Melo and neither does Denver I don't think. Just meant he wanted out, market had something to do with it. Forcing himself out was probably a bad choice of words.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Shaq to Miami from LA.
Barkley to Phoenix from Philly.
Elton Brand to Philly from LA. - Philly is not a small market, but it's smaller than LA.
Allen Iverson to Denver from Philly.[/QUOTE]

The fact you listed Elton Brand as a "franchise player" is hilarious. And saying Barkley going from Philly to Phoenix was a "big market" power play? And Shaq being forced out of LA was his choice? And then saying AI from Denver to Philly without mentioning Detroit! Take a bow my friend, you're in the same class as PleezeBelieve/Kobe stans/MJ stans/pauk/insert random ISH retard here.

[QUOTE=DJ Leon Smith]The fact you listed Elton Brand as a "franchise player" is hilarious. And saying Barkley going from Philly to Phoenix was a "big market" power play? And Shaq being forced out of LA was his choice? And then saying AI from Denver to Philly without mentioning Detroit! Take a bow my friend, you're in the same class as PleezeBelieve/Kobe stans/MJ stans/pauk/insert random ISH retard here.[/QUOTE]

Elton Brand was a number 1 pick, and is a pretty good player. Is he on the level of Lebron? Of course not. But he's not some average scrub though. Carlos Boozer's name gets thrown around whenever we talk about players going from small to big markets, so why can't Brand be used?

I am saying Barkley going to Phoenix was him going to another place to try to win, while he was in his prime. He won his MVP in Phoenix. Market size meant nothing. He left a big market to go to a smaller market in order to try to win.

What does Detroit have to do with AI getting traded to Denver from Philly? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]Melo did force himself out. I have no problem with it because he played for us for a long time. Don't kid yourself tho, [B]Melo wanted out and he wanted to go to NY. Market played a huuuuuge role too, I'd say the only role actually.[/B] He wouldn't sign the extension with Denver. Period. He helped Denver like crazy so probably a bad example of a guy forcing his way out. .[/QUOTE]

Anthony was born in the Red Hook projects in Brooklyn, New York City.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmelo_Anthony[/url]

Surely this has NOTHING to do with it.

I remember during the Shaq trade there were a couple of teams that he was willing to be traded too. Some of them were small markets like Orlando and Atlanta. It's funny no one brings up the fact that Shaq forced his way out of the biggest market to a smaller market. Funny