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[QUOTE=ihatetimthomas]I dont think he would have gotten 4 titles, but I think if you put KG on those teams that Dirk had, I think the Mavs have a better shot at winning titles than with Dirk. That doesnt make him a better player. I just think the balance of defense KG would have brought to those teams would have been huge.[/QUOTE]
I agree actually. Switch both teams and they'd get better. Garnett would complement Nash much better than Dirk does. It hurts to say but it's the truth.
[QUOTE=ihatetimthomas]I dont think he would have gotten 4 titles, but I think if you put KG on those teams that Dirk had, I think the Mavs have a better shot at winning titles than with Dirk. That doesnt make him a better player. I just think the balance of defense KG would have brought to those teams would have been huge.[/QUOTE]
some years? absolutely. i think kg fits better in 02/03/04....but he just wouldn't have a shot at the title in 02 or 04....but he'd have a great shot in 03 (as did Dirk before he got injured in the WCF)...but again, still have to beat duncan and the spurs. not sure kg puts the mavs over the top....he has a chance though.
05/06...definitely think Dirk is a better fit. just don't think any version of kg gets by the 06 spurs. the mavs just would not have been able to score enough to beat the spurs.
07? definitely think KG fits better on this team and has a good shot to win the title.
08/09....think its about even. no chance to win a title either year for either player though...just not happening. dirk was amazing in 09 and the mavs couldn't even come close to beating the nuggets.
10...somewhat of a toss up. the mavs would have been much better defensively, but i question how they are going to consistently score. kidd and terry were awful in the spurs series....and no dirk means a lot less open space/shots for those guys.
11...dirk definitely fits better. no version of KG leads the mavs to the title. just not happening.
the above is assuming some version of prime kg for each team.
1 or 2 titles are possible.....likely? perhaps.....but 0 titles is absolutely a possibility and a likely one at that. the west was tough back then. the spurs and lakers were great throughout. the suns and kings were really strong as well. at no point would the mavs with kg be title favorites over the shaq/kobe lakers or duncan spurs. 03 and 07 are easily the two best chances. and really they are both coin flips.
i'd say, overall, KG was the better player but Dirk's career wins out and will/shuold be ranked higher on all time list.
10 straight (or is it 11 straight now?) 50+ win season is no joke. you know how many players would kill to taste the playoffs or even, say, win 48 games? and it's not like that streak is gonna end next season or the year after.
Duncan tops thast streak in modern era, no one else.
Between Romo, the Rangers and the Mavs Dirk has saved a whole city from being rebranded. If the Mavs had lost those finals, Dallas would have been renamed into Big C(hoke).
[QUOTE=EricForman]i'd say, overall, KG was the better player but Dirk's career wins out and will/shuold be ranked higher on all time list.
10 straight (or is it 11 straight now?) 50+ win season is no joke. you know how many players would kill to taste the playoffs or even, say, win 48 games? and it's not like that streak is gonna end next season or the year after.
Duncan tops thast streak in modern era, no one else.[/QUOTE]
And if you compared Dirk's help/coaching to all the other players that have led teams to 10 or more straight 50 win seasons.....Dirk easily has the worst of it.
And that shows with only 1 title in those 11 years....while every other team has 3 or more that has accomplished that.
The Mavs have seen 3 coaching changes and a ton of player turnover in that time and they haven't stopped competing/winning. The one constant has been Dirk. He deserves a lot of credit for that....and for rarely ever missing games. This last season was the first time in his career that he played less than 76 games in a season (he played 73)....
Yeah, he'd have 2-4 titles with Dork's casts.
Dirk has just been ridiculously lucky. Nobody would consider better than KG if he didn't have the best owner in sports giving him excellent supporting casts every year.
Hell, he's never been the best in the league or even close.
Hell, mostly every year there are 4-6 players better.
For example:
06: Kobe,Wade.LBJ,Nash,Duncan,KG
07:Kobe,Wade,LBJ,Nash,Duncan,KG
08; Kobe,LBJ,LBJ,Duncan,KG
09: Kobe,Wade,LeBron,Dwight
10:Kobe,Wade,LeBron,Dwight
11:LBJ,Wade,Durant,Howard
lol @ top 20 player ever or better than KG.
:roll:
[QUOTE=Jacks3]Yeah, he'd have 2-4 titles with Dork's casts.
Dirk has just been ridiculously lucky. Nobody would consider better than KG if he didn't have the best owner in sports giving him excellent supporting casts every year.
Hell, he's never been the best in the league or even close.
Hell, mostly every year there are 4-6 players better.
For example:
06: Kobe,Wade.LBJ,Nash,Duncan,KG
07:Kobe,Wade,LBJ,Nash,Duncan,KG
08; Kobe,LBJ,LBJ,Duncan,KG
09: Kobe,Wade,LeBron,Dwight
10:Kobe,Wade,LeBron,Dwight
11:LBJ,Wade,Durant,Howard
lol @ top 20 player ever or better than KG.
:roll:[/QUOTE]
actually sir, dirk has never had the best supporting cast in the league at any point in his career. his teams have never approached the absurdly stacked kobe teams.....
lol...coming from a kobe fan that is just awful. no player of this era has been more blessed with great teams. the dude has had a top 3 supporting cast in the league for 12 years of his career....often times the best pretty easily. 8 years with prime/peak shaq. coached by phil jackson. 100 million dollar payrolls.....lol
pathetic.
Actually, sir, he has had consistently top 3 supporting casts and the best this past year. lol @ a Dork fan complaining about supporting casts with Cuban as the owner and consistently ridiculous payrolls.
Give KG the ridiculous talent Dork has had and he'd have 2-3 rings easily.
He's just a flat-out MUCH better player, which is why he was the best player in the league at his peak, while Dork has never been the best or even close. Hell. he only has a couple yrs where he's barely top 5. :oldlol:
I also like how you feel the need to consistently bring up Bryant.
Insecure clown.
:oldlol:
Dmavs.. I don't know why you're trying to have a real conversation with someone who thinks typing "Dork" instead of "Dirk" is funny.
[QUOTE=Jacks3]Actually, sir, he has had consistently top 3 supporting casts and the best this past year. lol @ a Dork fan complaining about supporting casts with Cuban as the owner and consistently ridiculous payrolls.
Give KG the ridiculous talent Dork has had and he'd have 2-3 rings easily.
He's just a flat-out MUCH better player, which is why he was the best player in the league at his peak, while Dork has never been the best or even close. Hell. he only has a couple yrs where he's barely top 5. :oldlol:
I also like how you feel the need to consistently bring up Bryant.
Insecure clown.
:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
not really. have you actually watched any of the mavs teams? these are the legit chances to win:
03...made the wcf...got there with dirk having two great game 7's. dirk goes down in game 3 of wcf. kg would have had a chance to win....but nothing more than a coin flip
06...made the finals...got there with dirk doing things i don't think kg could have done. very small chance they win.
07....very good chance for kg. but he still has to beat the duncan led spurs. 60% chance or so at the title
nothing else. no way is kg leading the 08/09/10 mavs anywhere. they just weren't good enough to win it all.
11? laughable. i'd love to see kg do anything with that team. it would have been a loss to the blazers or lakers.
They would have won in 2003, 2006, and 2007. Plus, maybe 2011. lol @ not beating a old, beat up Lakers team with both of stars players playing well below their norm. :oldlol:
lol @ Prime KG not winning with those teams.
Unfortunately, he hasn't had consistently amazing supporting casts like Dork, so now people honestly think Dork is better. Incredible. :oldlol:
04 KG SHITS on any version of Dork.
[QUOTE=Jacks3]They would have won in 2003, 2006, and 2007. Plus, maybe 2011. lol @ not beating a old, beat up Lakers team with both of stars players playing well below their norm. :oldlol:
lol @ Prime KG not winning with those teams.
Unfortunately, he hasn't had consistently amazing supporting casts like Dork, so now people honestly think Dork is better. Incredible. :oldlol:
04 KG SHITS on any version of Dork.[/QUOTE]
they could have won all three....definitely possible. likely? hardly.
i think dirk would have won more titles than kg on the celtics. don't see dirk doing nothing like kg did in game 7 in 2010....and obviously 09 dirk has a much better chance because kg was out. no different than subbing in a healthy kg for an injured dirk in 03. i like dirk's chances in 11 as well.
no way any version of kg wins with the 11 mavs though. all the close games? LOL at KG doing enough to beat those teams. very small chance to beat the lakers....and almost no chance beating the thunder or heat.
I might write an explanation on why I feel Dirk should be above KG in the all-time list soon, at least the argument for Dirk. I would make a new thread though seeing that this thread has been destroyed by posters comparing Player X to Dirk in scoring.
For me, I would take KG peak level and on the all time list. But for the all around skills that Dirk lacks in comparison to KG, he makes up for a lot of that in his scoring ability. I feel Dirk is a better number one option than KG. Dirk is the premier number one option of his generation at the PF. Dirk, Kobe, Durant, Wade,prime AI, prime T Mac, and Melo in my book are on another level when it comes to number one options. Then u have guys like prime KG, prime Duncan, prime Carter, prime Ray, Bron, and prime Pierce who I consider true number one options too. But the other guys I named before them I feel had that other gear more consistently and would put the gas on sooner before the guys like KG or Bron. So if u had KG and Dirk on the same team, Dirk would be my number one option. But KG still classifies as a Batman in my book.
[QUOTE=bizil]For me, I would take KG peak level and on the all time list. But for the all around skills that Dirk lacks in comparison to KG, he makes up for a lot of that in his scoring ability. I feel Dirk is a better number one option than KG. Dirk is the premier number one option of his generation at the PF. Dirk, Kobe, Durant, Wade,prime AI, prime T Mac, and Melo in my book are on another level when it comes to number one options. Then u have guys like prime KG, prime Duncan, prime Carter, prime Ray, Bron, and prime Pierce who I consider true number one options too. But the other guys I named before them I feel had that other gear more consistently and would put the gas on sooner before the guys like KG or Bron. So if u had KG and Dirk on the same team, Dirk would be my number one option. But KG still classifies as a Batman in my book.[/QUOTE]
i love it when people say peak kg is better than peak dirk. because peak dirk beat everyone in the top 5, and not just beat them, but absolutely dominated them, and without a second banana. i'm not sure who has had a better peak beyond jordan and maybe hakeem.
[QUOTE=brisbaneman]i love it when people say peak kg is better than peak dirk. because peak dirk beat everyone in the top 5, and not just beat them, but absolutely dominated them, and without a second banana. [B]i'm not sure who has had a better peak beyond jordan and maybe hakeem[/B].[/QUOTE]
I think that anyone who thinks that Dirk's peak is better than every other player except Jordan and "maybe" Hakeem needs to watch more basketball.
[QUOTE=rmt]I think that anyone who thinks that Dirk's peak is better than every other player except Jordan and "maybe" Hakeem needs to watch more basketball.[/QUOTE]
he took out wade, lebron, durant, and kobe in convicing fashion---many "fans" claim any of those guys as the league's best player. give me some others runs by a guy with no second option that are better than that.
[QUOTE=brisbaneman]he took out wade, lebron, durant, and kobe in convicing fashion---many "fans" claim any of those guys as the league's best player. [B]give me some others runs by a guy with no second option that are better than that.[/B][/QUOTE]
Duncan 03 is one obvious answer to your question. You are forgetting that basketball is played on both sides of the court.
The reason the Mavs won this year was that the supporting cast was better than in previous years, not that this was Dirk's peak. Dirk's run was not better than "maybe" Hakeem's or Duncan's - nor did he have a worse supporting cast than theirs. Many players have had better "peaks" than Dirk.
[QUOTE=rmt]I think that anyone who thinks that Dirk's peak is better than every other player except Jordan and "maybe" Hakeem needs to watch more basketball.[/QUOTE]
i don't think he means "peak"...like we would. i think he means playoff run. but he's still off anyway.
but you do have to factor in the great competition dirk/mavs went through. what team recently has had a harder road to the title? i honestly can't think of many.
blazers, lakers on the road, thunder, heat on the road.....
they went through 7 of the 20 best players in the league. 3 of the 5 or so best players in the league. according to ISH....the most stacked team of the era in the heat.
about as impressive of a title run as you can get....and dirk led the way...playing great ball and coming through time and time again in crunch time. only a handful of players in nba history have had a run like that given the circumstances.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
the most stacked team of the era in the heat.
[/QUOTE]
They will be but last season they were not that good.
Outside the big 3:
Bench:
[url]http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/7/pts/8-1[/url]
Center:
[url]http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/10/pts/8-1[/url]
PG:
[url]http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/12/pts/8-1[/url]
Just wish people would stop overrating the team they had last year. It's a team game and they use 3 players. Down the road they will be a force to reckon with when they figure out how to fix EVERYTHING on the team (basically acquire new players) :blah
But seriously you cant call a team STACKED if it only has 3 players contributing regardless of how good those players are.
[QUOTE=SunsCaptain]They will be but last season they were not that good.
Outside the big 3:
Bench:
[url]http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/7/pts/8-1[/url]
Center:
[url]http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/10/pts/8-1[/url]
PG:
[url]http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/12/pts/8-1[/url]
Just wish people would stop overrating the team they had last year. It's a team game and they use 3 players. Down the road they will be a force to reckon with when they figure out how to fix EVERYTHING on the team (basically acquire new players) :blah
But seriously you cant call a team STACKED if it only has 3 players contributing regardless of how good those players are.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I agree. I just find it funny. Going into the finals everyone was saying the heat's title doesn't count much because they were so good its unfair. Now? Oh well, they weren't that good...in order to diminish the mavs winning.
Same thing with Lakers fans....they all said they'd rather play the mavs than the blazers in the 2nd round. many saying for the reason that dirk just can't get it done...LOL...Now? Oh well, we weren't that good anyway...even though bynum was finally healthy and playing great etc....
The heat were hardly the most stacked team ever and had a lot of holes. They either have to admit that.....or give the Mavs credit for one of the most improbable playoff runs ever. Which is exactly what it was. Absolutely historic given what normally happens in the NBA playoffs.
Winning 2 series on the road as huge underdogs? Almost never happens. Winning a title with only 1 all nba player? Almost never happens.
Winning the title with only 1 all star? Almost never happens.
A lot of credit is due.....but the dirk haters that had their bs perceptions blown out of the water can't deal with it.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41][B]The heat were hardly the most stacked team ever and had a lot of holes.[/B] They either have to admit that.....or give the Mavs credit for one of the most improbable playoff runs ever. .[/QUOTE]
It's ironic though, If anybody has never admitted that, it's probably you. You tend do exactly what you say Dirk haters do (unfairly hate), only the opposite end of the spectrum. It's almost like you play devil's advocate for Dirk, even though you always admit that you have KG above him in your current all time list and you admit things like that (that the Heat weren't stacked).
Hey, I too think the Heat were a top-heavy team, maybe one of the heaviest ever... but toggling between old versions of Ilguaskas, Bibby, Arroyo, Dampier, etc... and dealing with Haslem's, Mike Millers injuries. That team was exposed as what is is, a team with a sick (albeit poorly fit) big 3 surrounded mostly by past-somebodies.
If anything, the Mavs perimeter defense and perimeter offense (Terry, Stevenson, Marion, Kidd, etc) exposed that HEAT team, but how much credit do they get from Dirk fanatics?
[QUOTE=SCdac]It's ironic though, If anybody has never admitted that, it's probably you. You tend do exactly what you say Dirk haters do (unfairly hate), only the opposite end of the spectrum. It's almost like you play devil's advocate for Dirk, even though you always admit that you have KG above him in your current all time list and you admit things like that (that the Heat weren't stacked).
Hey, I too think the Heat were a top-heavy team, maybe one of the heaviest ever... but toggling between old versions of Ilguaskas, Bibby, Arroyo, Dampier, etc... and dealing with Haslem's, Mike Millers injuries. That team was exposed as what is is, a team with a sick (albeit poorly fit) big 3 surrounded mostly by past-somebodies.
If anything, the Mavs perimeter defense and perimeter offense (Terry, Stevenson, Marion, Kidd, etc) exposed that HEAT team, but how much credit do they get from Dirk fanatics?[/QUOTE]
B-b-b-b-b-b-bu-bu-bu-bu-but LeBrick choked!!!!!!!!!
[QUOTE=rmt]Duncan 03 is one obvious answer to your question. You are forgetting that basketball is played on both sides of the court.
The reason the Mavs won this year was that the supporting cast was better than in previous years, not that this was Dirk's peak. Dirk's run was not better than "maybe" Hakeem's or Duncan's - nor did he have a worse supporting cast than theirs. Many players have had better "peaks" than Dirk.[/QUOTE]
No, Duncan beat one great team (lakers) and beat a dirk-less mavs (him and dirk were a wash through 2.5 games) and an average nets team.
dirk played very well on both ends.
Dirk's peak has been surpassed by at most a handful of players. I am sorry. He singlehandedly took games over and had several game winners.
By the time their careers are over I think it'll be pretty close. Dirk is far and above a better offensive player than Garnett. And Garnett is far and above a better defensive player than Dirk. The biggest advantages Dirk has two main reasons to help his case. One, he won a ring being the absolute main man on his team and he came through in the clutch time after time after time. Two, Dirk is going to go down as the greatest international basketball player to ever play in the NBA. Garnett on the other hand won a ring with the help of two other probable hall-of-famers. Not to take anything away from Garnett.
KG had move overall skill, no doubt but Basketball is about an elite skill applied at an elite time.
Dirk has had that... and that's what can win championships.
KG is a great all-around player but isn't leading a team by himself. Pierce won them the championship.