List of players over 7 foot, 230 pounds in Wilt's time

[QUOTE=WillC]Thanks. I wish I had more time for my blog. One of my articles was published in MVP magazine this month, which is the fourth time I've had an article published.

[img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/406950_281004895287566_107060702681987_697521_15825266_n.jpg[/img]

[img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/377503_279803655407690_107060702681987_694688_133507665_n.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.ekmresponse.com/Documents/1433/Images/Limited%20Edition%20Cover%20m.jpg[/img]

[img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/310792_246958418692214_107060702681987_616718_1233026111_n.jpg[/img]

[img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/33929_122501401137917_107060702681987_125196_5068243_n.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]

:applause: :bowdown:

Nice. I'll definitely read more of those articles later. Did you have any offers for writing for other sites? You seem to be really good.

[QUOTE=millwad]Well, obviously that's not true but Wilt's competition his first year wasn't that good, you know that and you've even said it yourself. [B]In his 50 point per game season the lack of height[/B] and skillset around the league was obvious and the tall one's a la Swede Halbrook, Walter Dukes etc really wasn't anything special..

Although in all Wilt faced good competition in all, I'll get it if someone uses the competition in his early years against him, I do it too but in all he proved himself against some great centers.[/QUOTE]

:roll:

Official list heights today (and since ~1980's) have been complete media-hype BS, where as in his era they were generally much closer to the players "in stockings" height. In 1/4 inch thick shoes there really was no such thing "in shoes" height bc there would be no point anyways. Some guys were rounded down (6'9.5 Bill Russell became 6'9, 7'1 1/16th Wilt Chamberlain became 7'1), Jerry west is between 6'2.5-6'2.75 barefoot but for the first half of his career he was listed 6'2 until they bumped him to 6'3... some guys were rounded up (7'1 5/8 KAJ and 7'1 5/16th Artis Gilmore both listed to 7'2). But no guys were like Dwight ****ing Howard (6'9 barefoot, 6'10.25 in shoes, 6'11 official listed height) or any of the rest of the clowns in today's league who are no-where near their actual height.

D. Howard, #1 center in the league today. 6'9... How come 7'1.25" Hasheem Thabeet isn't tearing up the ****in record books today!?

Don't answer that because you'll just say something retarded. Instead just read every single one of these player heights from that NBA 1961-1962 season, when Wilt scored 50.4ppg. It's complete from starters down to the last bench player. Then go right ahead and compared them with all the calculated NBA barefoot measurements displayed on Draft Express from 1989-present as per this tool: [url]http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=avepos&year=All&source=All&draft=100&sort=[/url]...

[B]Pure Guards (Let's call them the Point Guards:[/B]
Bob Cousy G 6-1
K.C. Jones G 6-1
Gary Phillips G 6-3
Al Attles G 6-0
York Larese G 6-4
Guy Rodgers G 6-0
Al Bianchi G 6-3
Larry Costello G 6-1
Paul Neumann G 6-1
George Blaney G 6-1
Donnie Butcher G 6-2
Al Butler G 6-2
Richie Guerin G 6-4
Whitey Martin G 6-2
Sam Stith G 6-2
Hot Rod Hundley G 6-4
Bob McNeill G 6-1
Bobby Smith G 6-4
Jerry West G 6-2
Bucky Bockhorn G 6-4
Adrian Smith G 6-1
Dave Zeller G 6-1
Johnny Egan G 5-11
Willie Jones G 6-3
Chuck Noble G 6-4
Don Ohl G 6-3
Gene Shue G 6-2
Jimmy Darrow G 5-10
Dick Eichhorst G 6-3
Vern Hatton G 6-3
Cleo Hill G 6-1
Johnny McCarthy G 6-1
Lenny Wilkens G 6-1
Howie Carl G 5-9
Ralph Davis G 6-4
York Larese G 6-4
Slick Leonard G 6-3
1961-62 Season, 37 active, avg = 6-1.89"
1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 93) avg = 6-1.02"
[I](Point guards of that season averaged over 3/4 of an inch taller than modern point guards of 1989-present)[/I]

[B]Guard/Forward swingmen (Let's call them the Shooting Guards):[/B]
Carl Braun G-F 6-5
Sam Jones G-F 6-4
Frank Ramsey F-G 6-3
Paul Arizin F-G 6-4
Ed Conlin F-G 6-5
Tom Gola G-F 6-6
Hal Greer G-F 6-2
Bill Smith G-F 6-5
Frank Selvy G-F 6-3
Oscar Robertson G-F 6-5
Jack Twyman F-G 6-6
George Lee F-G 6-4
Jackie Moreland F-G 6-7
Al Ferrari G-F 6-4
Si Green G-F 6-2
Cliff Hagan F-G 6-4
Fred LaCour G-F 6-5
Bob Sims G-F 6-5
Andy Johnson F-G 6-5
Jack Turner G-F 6-5
1961-62 Season, 20 active, avg = 6-4.45"
1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 90) avg = 6-3.76"
[I](Shooting guards of that season average over half an inch taller than shooting guards of 1989-present)[/I]

[B]Pure Forwards (Let's call them the Small Forwards):[/B]
Gene Guarilia F 6-5
Jim Loscutoff F 6-5
Tom Sanders F 6-6
Ted Luckenbill F 6-6
Tom Meschery F 6-6
Frank Radovich F 6-8
Dave Gambee F 6-6
Joe Roberts F 6-6
Chuck Osborne F 6-6
Lee Shaffer F 6-7
Dave Budd F 6-6
Ed Burton F 6-6
Doug Kistler F 6-9
Elgin Baylor F 6-5
Tom Hawkins F 6-5
Bob Boozer F 6-8
Joe Buckhalter F 6-7
Bob Wiesenhahn F 6-4
Bailey Howell F 6-7
Shellie McMillon F 6-5
S. Arceneaux F 6-4
Horace Walker F 6-3
Barney Cable F 6-7
Ron Horn F 6-7
George Bon S. F 6-8
1961-62 Season, 25 active, avg = 6-6.08"
1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 91) avg = 6-6.40"
[I](The average small forward height of that season is only 1/3rd of an inch less than the average small forwards drafted between 1989-present)[/I]

[B]Forward/Centers (Let's call them the Power Forwards):[/B]
Tom Heinsohn F-C 6-7
Joe Ruklick F-C 6-9
Joe Graboski F-C 6-7
Red Kerr C-F 6-9
Dolph Schayes F-C 6-7
C. Buckner F-C 6-9
Johnny Green F-C 6-5
Phil Jordon C-F 6-10
Willie Naulls F-C 6-6
Howie Jolliff F-C 6-7
Jim Krebs C-F 6-8
Rudy LaRusso F-C 6-7
Wayne Embry C-F 6-8
Hub Reed C-F 6-9
Bob Ferry C-F 6-8
Ray Scott F-C 6-9
Larry Foust C-F 6-9
Clyde Lovellette C-F 6-9
Bob Pettit F-C 6-9
W. Sauldsberry F-C 6-7
Archie Dees F-C 6-8
Joe Graboski F-C 6-7
Dave Piontek F-C 6-6
Charlie Tyra C-F 6-8
1961-62 Season, 24 active, avg = 6-7.83"
1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 127) avg = 6-7.95"
[I](The power forwards average height that season is negligible in comparison with all modern power forwards from 1989-present... less than 1/8th of an inch)[/I]

[B]Players strictly listed as Centers:[/B]
Bill Russell C 6-9 (1/2)
Wilt Chamberlain C 7-1 (1/16)
Swede Halbrook C 7-3
Darrall Imhoff C 6-10
Ray Felix C 6-11
Wayne Yates C 6-8
Bevo Nordmann C 6-10
Walter Dukes C 7-0
Walt Bellamy C 6-11
1961-1962 Season, 9 active, avg = 6-11.06" (6-10.81" excluding Wilt)
1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 67) avg = 6-10.44"
[I](Centers of that season averaged over 1/4 of an inch taller than modern centers, and that is if we exclude Wilt - the difference is more than 1/2 an inch if we included him)[/I]

Players get divided this way because in 61-62 there were only 3 recognized positions. G, F, C - and guys that would swing between basically had identical team roles to "SG, PF". [url]www.basketball-reference.com[/url] has done an excellent job at indicating the players that were pulling double-duties between 2 positions.

Where's the "short league" evidence!? That looks like a tall year in the G, SG, and Center spots... Tell me Millwad, has your brain ever thought "hey... maybe I should look this shit up first..."? Or are you just a blind sheep that likes to ejaculate hear-say slander and myth about Wilt's era. :hammerhead:


P.S. about the "skillsets"... :roll: GTFO kid, what the hell do you know about skillsets from that time. Name 5 guys that came off the bench from 1961-62 season, then explain to me from your expert scouting perspective, some of the strengths and weaknesses in their game...

:confusedshrug: Help us out bro your the expert

[QUOTE=PTB Fan]:applause: :bowdown:

Nice. I'll definitely read more of those articles later. Did you have any offers for writing for other sites? You seem to be really good.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the kind words.

I got asked if I'd like to write for ballislife.com, which might still happen. I've also written for FadeAway (which was the name of MVP Magazine before they changed their title).

[img]http://www.swishbasketball.net/ekmps/shops/swishbasketball/images/fadeaway-magazine-issue-2-62-pages-12844-p.jpg[/img]

[img]http://urban-nerds.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/fadeaway-magazine-issue-3-jan-2010-15603-p.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=PTB Fan]:applause: :bowdown:

Nice. I'll definitely read more of those articles later. Did you have any offers for writing for other sites? You seem to be really good.[/QUOTE]

But you can tell by his stuff here! He will definitely get more.... That's for sure.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]:roll:

Official list heights today (and since ~1980's) have been complete media-hype BS, where as in his era they were generally much closer to the players "in stockings" height. In 1/4 inch thick shoes there really was no such thing "in shoes" height bc there would be no point anyways. Some guys were rounded down (6'9.5 Bill Russell became 6'9, 7'1 1/16th Wilt Chamberlain became 7'1), Jerry west is between 6'2.5-6'2.75 barefoot but for the first half of his career he was listed 6'2 until they bumped him to 6'3... some guys were rounded up (7'1 5/8 KAJ and 7'1 5/16th Artis Gilmore both listed to 7'2). But no guys were like Dwight ****ing Howard (6'9 barefoot, 6'10.25 in shoes, 6'11 official listed height) or any of the rest of the clowns in today's league who are no-where near their actual height.

D. Howard, #1 center in the league today. 6'9... How come 7'1.25" Hasheem Thabeet isn't tearing up the ****in record books today!?

Don't answer that because you'll just say something retarded. Instead just read every single one of these player heights from that NBA 1961-1962 season, when Wilt scored 50.4ppg. It's complete from starters down to the last bench player. Then go right ahead and compared them with all the calculated NBA barefoot measurements displayed on Draft Express from 1989-present as per this tool: [url]http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-...raft=100&sort=[/url]...

[B]Pure Guards (Let's call them the Point Guards:[/B]
Bob Cousy G 6-1
K.C. Jones G 6-1
Gary Phillips G 6-3
Al Attles G 6-0
York Larese G 6-4
Guy Rodgers G 6-0
Al Bianchi G 6-3
Larry Costello G 6-1
Paul Neumann G 6-1
George Blaney G 6-1
Donnie Butcher G 6-2
Al Butler G 6-2
Richie Guerin G 6-4
Whitey Martin G 6-2
Sam Stith G 6-2
Hot Rod Hundley G 6-4
Bob McNeill G 6-1
Bobby Smith G 6-4
Jerry West G 6-2
Bucky Bockhorn G 6-4
Adrian Smith G 6-1
Dave Zeller G 6-1
Johnny Egan G 5-11
Willie Jones G 6-3
Chuck Noble G 6-4
Don Ohl G 6-3
Gene Shue G 6-2
Jimmy Darrow G 5-10
Dick Eichhorst G 6-3
Vern Hatton G 6-3
Cleo Hill G 6-1
Johnny McCarthy G 6-1
Lenny Wilkens G 6-1
Howie Carl G 5-9
Ralph Davis G 6-4
York Larese G 6-4
Slick Leonard G 6-3
1961-62 Season, 37 active, avg = 6-1.89"
1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 93) avg = 6-1.02"
[I](Point guards of that season averaged over 3/4 of an inch taller than modern point guards of 1989-present)[/I]

[B]Guard/Forward swingmen (Let's call them the Shooting Guards):[/B]
Carl Braun G-F 6-5
Sam Jones G-F 6-4
Frank Ramsey F-G 6-3
Paul Arizin F-G 6-4
Ed Conlin F-G 6-5
Tom Gola G-F 6-6
Hal Greer G-F 6-2
Bill Smith G-F 6-5
Frank Selvy G-F 6-3
Oscar Robertson G-F 6-5
Jack Twyman F-G 6-6
George Lee F-G 6-4
Jackie Moreland F-G 6-7
Al Ferrari G-F 6-4
Si Green G-F 6-2
Cliff Hagan F-G 6-4
Fred LaCour G-F 6-5
Bob Sims G-F 6-5
Andy Johnson F-G 6-5
Jack Turner G-F 6-5
1961-62 Season, 20 active, avg = 6-4.45"
1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 90) avg = 6-3.76"
[I](Shooting guards of that season average over half an inch taller than shooting guards of 1989-present)[/I]

[B]Pure Forwards (Let's call them the Small Forwards):[/B]
Gene Guarilia F 6-5
Jim Loscutoff F 6-5
Tom Sanders F 6-6
Ted Luckenbill F 6-6
Tom Meschery F 6-6
Frank Radovich F 6-8
Dave Gambee F 6-6
Joe Roberts F 6-6
Chuck Osborne F 6-6
Lee Shaffer F 6-7
Dave Budd F 6-6
Ed Burton F 6-6
Doug Kistler F 6-9
Elgin Baylor F 6-5
Tom Hawkins F 6-5
Bob Boozer F 6-8
Joe Buckhalter F 6-7
Bob Wiesenhahn F 6-4
Bailey Howell F 6-7
Shellie McMillon F 6-5
S. Arceneaux F 6-4
Horace Walker F 6-3
Barney Cable F 6-7
Ron Horn F 6-7
George Bon S. F 6-8
1961-62 Season, 25 active, avg = 6-6.08"
1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 91) avg = 6-6.40"
[I](The average small forward height of that season is only 1/3rd of an inch less than the average small forwards drafted between 1989-present)[/I]

[B]Forward/Centers (Let's call them the Power Forwards):[/B]
Tom Heinsohn F-C 6-7
Joe Ruklick F-C 6-9
Joe Graboski F-C 6-7
Red Kerr C-F 6-9
Dolph Schayes F-C 6-7
C. Buckner F-C 6-9
Johnny Green F-C 6-5
Phil Jordon C-F 6-10
Willie Naulls F-C 6-6
Howie Jolliff F-C 6-7
Jim Krebs C-F 6-8
Rudy LaRusso F-C 6-7
Wayne Embry C-F 6-8
Hub Reed C-F 6-9
Bob Ferry C-F 6-8
Ray Scott F-C 6-9
Larry Foust C-F 6-9
Clyde Lovellette C-F 6-9
Bob Pettit F-C 6-9
W. Sauldsberry F-C 6-7
Archie Dees F-C 6-8
Joe Graboski F-C 6-7
Dave Piontek F-C 6-6
Charlie Tyra C-F 6-8
1961-62 Season, 24 active, avg = 6-7.83"
1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 127) avg = 6-7.95"
[I](The power forwards average height that season is negligible in comparison with all modern power forwards from 1989-present... less than 1/8th of an inch)[/I]

[B]Players strictly listed as Centers:[/B]
Bill Russell C 6-9 (1/2)
Wilt Chamberlain C 7-1 (1/16)
Swede Halbrook C 7-3
Darrall Imhoff C 6-10
Ray Felix C 6-11
Wayne Yates C 6-8
Bevo Nordmann C 6-10
Walter Dukes C 7-0
Walt Bellamy C 6-11
1961-1962 Season, 9 active, avg = 6-11.06" (6-10.81" excluding Wilt)
1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 67) avg = 6-10.44"
[I](Centers of that season averaged over 1/4 of an inch taller than modern centers, and that is if we exclude Wilt - the difference is more than 1/2 an inch if we included him)[/I]

Players get divided this way because in 61-62 there were only 3 recognized positions. G, F, C - and guys that would swing between basically had identical team roles to "SG, PF". [url]www.basketball-reference.com[/url] has done an excellent job at indicating the players that were pulling double-duties between 2 positions.

Where's the "short league" evidence!? That looks like a tall year in the G, SG, and Center spots... Tell me Millwad, has your brain ever thought "hey... maybe I should look this shit up first..."? Or are you just a blind sheep that likes to ejaculate hear-say slander and myth about Wilt's era. :hammerhead:


P.S. about the "skillsets"... :roll: GTFO kid, what the hell do you know about skillsets from that time. Name 5 guys that came off the bench from 1961-62 season, then explain to me from your expert scouting perspective, some of the strengths and weaknesses in their game...

:confusedshrug: Help us out bro your the expert[/QUOTE]
Wow! That's some first post :cheers: and Welcome.

[QUOTE=jlauber]First of all, the idiotic OP claimed that Wilt faced two players who were 7-0 in his CAREER. I just listed 14 seven-footers that played in the Chamberlain-era, and another 13 who would be listed at 7-0 in TODAY's game...or TWENTY-SEVEN of them.

Secondly, in Wilt's "scoring" prime, he not only was scoring 50-60-70 points against 7-0 Reggie Harding, 7-3 Swede Halbrook, 7-0 Walter Dukes, and 6-11 Ray Felix...he had SEASONS, covering 9+ games in a season, of 40.1 ppg against Reed; 43.7 ppg and get this, 52.7 ppg against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy; 39.7 ppg and 38.1 ppg against 6-10 HOFer Bill Russell (who was a WORLD-CLASS high-jumper with a 7-4 wingspan); as well as a string of 11 straight games against 6-11 Nate Thurmond, in which he averaged 30 ppg (including games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and even 45 points.) BTW, find me a game in which Kareem scored 38 points against a starting Nate Thurmond, much less 45 points...and Kareem faced him in some 50 H2H games. And even as late as Wilt's 71-72 season, he was scoring 29 ppg in 5 H2H games against 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier.

And that does not include his absolute DOMINATION in terms of rebounding. You would be hard-pressed to find very many single games in Chamberlain's entire career, in which he was outrebounded. Russell, who was the game' second greatest rebounder of all-time, managed to outrebound Chamberlain in 42 H2H games, most of them barely. BUT, Wilt outrebounded Russell in 92, and in many he just murdered Russell. And Chamberlain faced Thurmond in three playoff series, and outrebounded him by margins of 28.5 to 26.7 rpg, 23.5 rpg to 19.5 rpg, and a 36 year old Chamberlain had a 23.6 to 17.2 rpg edge in Wilt's LAST playoff run. Even in the first one, which was their closest series. Wilt outrebounded Thurmond in 5 of those 6 games.

And how about FG%'s? In the VAST majority of H2H games against virtually any of the MANY HOFers Chamberlain faced, he outshot them, including Kareem, even at way past his peak. He outshot a prime Thurmond in those three straight playoff series by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and a staggering .560 to .343 margin in the '67 Finals. Kareem faced an older Thurmond in three straight playoff series, and shot .486, .428, and an eye-popping .405 from the floor against him.

And once again, the uneducated posters, like yourself, just look at Wilt's 50 ppg season, in a league of nine teams. Of course, Wilt faced Russell in 10 games (and Boston in 12), and averaged 39.7 ppg against him (with a high game of 62.) He faced Bellamy in 10 games, and all he could do was score 52.7 ppg against him (with a high game of 73.) He faced the 6-11 Ray Felix in eight games, and averaged 51.5 ppg in those games, including three of 60+, and a high game of 78. He was pouring in games of 50+ against 7-3 Swede Halbrook and 7-0 Walter Dukes. He had 100 points in a game against 6-10 Darrell Imhoff (granted Imhoff was one of three centers who tried to guard Wilt in that game.) He also battled the 6-9, 240 lb. Clyde Lovellette, who averaged 20.8 ppg that season, three times (Lovellete was injured for 1/2 the season), and Wilt had games of 39, 39, and 53 against him. And multiple all-star 6-9 Red Kerr was routinely surrendering 50+ point games to Chamberlain.

But, here again, a Chamberlain in his 64-65 season, averaged 40.1 ppg against Reed. In his 65-66 season, he averaged 33.0 ppg against Bellamy; 28.9 against Thurmond; 28.3 against Russell (and 31 rpg as well), and then in the playoffs, he averaged 28 ppg, 30 rpg, and shot .509 against Russell. In fact, his 65-66 season was probably the most dominant season ever against an entire league. He was CRUSHING Thurmond, Bellamy, and Russell in those games, as well as pounding the rest of the league. He led the league in scoring, at 33.5 ppg; in rebounding, at 24.6 rpg; and set a then-record FG% mark of .540; oh and he also averaged 5.2 apg.

A 66-67 Chamberlain averaged 24.1 ppg, on .683 shooting, with 24.2 rpg, and 7.8 apg, And he was reducing the best centers to under 40% shooting in the known H2H matchups (in the playoffs,he held Dierking to .427, Russell to .358, and Thurmond to .343 shooting...all while shooting .579 himself in those games.)

A 67-68 Chamberlain had games of 52, 53, 53, and 68 points. In one of those 53 point games, he added 32 rebounds and 14 assists (and 7 blocks.) In that 68 point game, he grabbed 37 rebounds.

A 68-69 Wilt, in his 10th season, went on a 17 game tear in which he shelled every center in the league. He had games of 23 against Thurmond, 31 against Reed, and 35 against Russell...as well as 60 against Dierking and 66 against 6-10 Jim Fox.

A 69-70 Wilt, in his 11th season, was asked to step up offensively, and he responded by LEADING the league in scoring in his first nine games, at 32.2 ppg (and on about 60% shooting.) In those nine games he put up games of 33 (on 13-13 shooting), 35, 37 (against 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle), 38 (against reigning MVP Wes Unseld), 42 (against star center Bob Rule), and 43 points. He also pounded Kareem in one game, with a 25-25 game on 9-14 shooting. He blew out his knee in that ninth game, or he might have went on to win his eighth scoring title...at age 33.

Even in his LAST season, at age 36, he went H2H with Kareem in six regular season games, and outshot Kareem in those six games by a staggering .737 to .450 margin (which even included one game in which he outscored Kareem, 24-21, while outshooting Kareem, 10-14 to 10-27.) Then, in his LAST post-season, covering 17 games, all he did was average 22.5 rpg...which was the last time a player ever averaged as much as 17.3 ppg in the post-season.

Once again...Wilt faced players like Lovellette, Embry, Reed, Bellamy, Unseld, Hayes, Cowens, Lanier, Thurmond, Russell, Kareem, and even Gilmore...ALL in the HOF.

So, the fact was, no matter who Chamberlain faced, whether it be other seven-footers, of which there were quite a few in smaller leagues (from 8 to 17 team leagues) or the many HOFers, he was generally outplaying them all. Even into his LAST season. And all of that certainly blows up this theory that Wilt only feasted on helpless 6-6 centers in his career (which was the real intention of the OP BTW.)[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i41.tinypic.com/1znn70p.jpg[/IMG]

CavaliersFTW just shut this thread down.

On his first post too. Props :cheers:

[QUOTE=WillC]Thanks for the kind words.

I got asked if I'd like to write for ballislife.com, which might still happen. I've also written for FadeAway (which was the name of MVP Magazine before they changed their title).

[img]http://www.swishbasketball.net/ekmps/shops/swishbasketball/images/fadeaway-magazine-issue-2-62-pages-12844-p.jpg[/img]

[img]http://urban-nerds.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/fadeaway-magazine-issue-3-jan-2010-15603-p.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]

Nice. :applause:

[QUOTE=Pointguard]But you can tell by his stuff here! He will definitely get more.... That's for sure.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/legends/wilt-chamberlain/wilt-chamberlain-warriors.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow][IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/legends/wilt-chamberlain/wilt-chamberlain-warriors.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

:facepalm

Wilt does a layup over a Dwight Howard sized center while being body checked on a double-team by #12 - a guard/forward swingman (IE - a SG) that's actually a taller SG than Dwayne Wade.... So uhhh.... Were you surprised that a center with more length than Yao Ming and as much agility as a small forward had this ability to bull his way in and leap above them for an easy layup? :confusedshrug: Are you braindead kid?



Here... I can play this same trolling game, this time with someone you recognize:
[IMG]http://lakersblog.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c506253ef013486a12220970c-320wi[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.eba-stats.com/images/legends/chamberlain_jabbar.JPG[/IMG]
[IMG]http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqwgl5r2af1qz7ni3o1_400.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.ebayimg.com/t/WILT-CHAMBERLAIN-KAREEM-ABDUL-JABBAR-8-X-10-PHOTO-/12/!BqheFkgBWk~$(KGrHqQH-C4EuZWTkim+BLv1FJCNgg~~_35.JPG[/IMG]
Wilt made anyone look meak and small, no matter how big they actually were or how talented... doesn't matter who they are or what position they played or what type of talent they were. Being a GOAT candidate means your pretty damn superior to everyone from any given time. Surprised? Get over it.


Here's another round of your little game:
[IMG]http://www.iwanttobeanowner.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/kareem-abdul-jabbar-dan-issel2.jpg[/IMG]
Kareem again... except wait, has he now taken on the role of Wilt?, He looked so small just a few images ago!? Now he's lookin like the mighty unstoppable beast who prob also doesn't deserve accolade for his shit right? - I mean look at how meak the dude is he's skying over. Same type of image to form a the same stupid conclusion.
[IMG]http://brickhousetalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/yao-dunk-214x300.jpg[/IMG]
And here the mighty Yao toys with some midget that offers proof of how weak and small Yao's era was, right? Yao's got roughly Identical standing reach as Wilt, identical weight - yet, even [I]less[/I] wingspan, and far less strength and athleticism. Yet, what's the difference between cherry picking images of him vs images of Chamberlain? You gonna make a thread about that big bully Yao too now? :cry:

I have said it many times, but Kareem is one of the "bridges" that spanned the end of Wilt's NBA career, to the middle of Hakeem's. In fact, his career nearly spanned FOUR decades (1969-thru 1989.)

Once again, Kareem's two greatest statistical seasons came in his second and third seasons. In his 70-71 season, at age 23 (actually 24), he averaged 31.7 ppg, 16.0 rpg, on .577 shooting (and BTW, his .128 differential over the league average was the highest of his career), and along the way he not only won the MVP, but the FMVP. In his 71-72 season, at age 24 (25), he averaged 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, and shot .574.

By contrast, Chamberlain had arguably the WORST season of his career in 70-71. He "only" averaged 20.7 ppg, 18.2 rpg (which was his career LOW), and on .545 shooting (which was a mediocre season for Wilt.) Then, in the post-season, he "only" averaged 18.3 ppg, 20.2 rpg (a career LOW in the post-season), on a very un-Wilt-like .455 shooting.) Of course, he was 34 years old, and only a year removed from major knee surgery.

So what you ask? This was a Kareem at his absolute finest, and a Chamberlain at arguably his WORST. BUT, the two went H2H in 10 games that season (five in the regular season, and five more in the playoffs.) In their regular season H2H's, Kareem outscored Wilt, per game, 27.8 ppg to 23.2 ppg; while Chamberlain outrebounded Kareem, per game, 15.0 rpg to 13.2 rpg; and Wilt outshot Kareem in those five games, .483 to .438 (yes, he held Kareem to .438 shooting.)

In the 70-71 playoffs, Kareem outscored Wilt, per game, 25.0 ppg to 22.0 ppg; while Chamberlain outrebounded Kareem, per game, 18.8 rpg to 17.2 rpg; and Wilt outshot Kareem in that series, .489 to .481.

Overall, in those ten games, Kareem held a 26.4 ppg to 22.5 ppg edge; while Chamberlain outrebounded Kareem, per game, 16.9 rpg to 15.2 rpg; and Wilt outshot Kareem in those ten games by a .486 to .457 (yes, .457 in ten straight games.) BTW, in their last meeting in the playoffs, in the series clincher, Chamberlain outscored Kareem, 23-20; and outshot Kareem, 10-21 to 7-23. AND, late in that game, when Wilt left the game, he received a standing ovation...and the game was played in MILWAUKEE.

There you have it...in those ten H2H games, a way-past-his-prime Chamberlain, at age 34, in arguably his WORST season, battled a statistically prime Kareem, in perhaps his finest season (if you include both the regular season and the post-season) to a statistical DRAW.

Now, much has been made about Kareem's scoring margins in both the regular season, and the post-season, the very next season. Kareem averaged 40.2 ppg on an even .500 shooting in the 71-72 regular season against Wilt. However, the bulk of those numbers came in two games, in which Kareem scored 90 points, on .528 shooting, in games in which Wilt's Lakers won by margins of 13 and 16 points (and they were never challenged in that second game.) Oh, and Wilt outrebounded Kareem in those two games by a 50-26 margin.

However, in the playoffs, while Kareem once again enjoyed a solid scoring edge of 202-67 in their six H2H games (33.7 ppg to 11.2 ppg), Chamberlain outrebounded Kareem by a 18.8 rpg to 17.2 rpg margin. Kareem also slightly outshot Wilt, (.457 to .452), BUT, Wilt missed a total of 20 shots, while Kareem missed 107. Furthermore, in the last four pivotal games of that series, Wilt held Kareem to an eye-popping .414 shooting FG%. AND, in the clinching game six win, Chamberlain took over the game in the 4th quarter, in leading LA back from a 10 point deficit to a 104-100 win. Overall, Kareem outscored Wilt in that game, 37-20, but Wilt outshot Kareem 8-12 to 16-37 (including 2-8 in the final quarter.) Chamberlain also swatted a ton of skyhooks in that series, with a known 15 blocks against Kareem in just three games, and probably over 20 in the entire series.

Those that actually watched the '71-72 WCF's almost unanimously proclaimed that Wilt outplayed Kareem in that series, including the Milwaukee coach and the Milwaukee press. Time Magazine hailed Wilt's performance as "decisively outplaying Kareem."

Then, the two went H2H in six more regular season games in Wilt's last season (72-73.) Kareem outscored Wilt, per game, 29.0 to 11.0 ppg, BUT, Chamberlain outshot Kareem by a staggering .737 to .450 margin. Included in those six games, was one game in which Wilt outscored Kareem, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.

Of course, the two met one time, in Kareem's rookie season, and before Wilt shredded his knee that year. In that one game, Chamberlain outscored Kareem, 25-23; he outrebounded Kareem, 25-20; he outassisted Kareem, 5-2; he outblocked Kareem, 3-2; and he outshot Kareem, 9-14 to 9-21.

What was really fascinating, though, was that the two went H2H in 28 games, and Wilt held Kareem to .464 shooting (while shooting .530 himself.) Kareem shot 50%, or better, in ten of those games, and 60% in exactly one. He also shot less than .399 in SEVEN of those games. In their two "clinchers" in their H2H playoff series, Wilt held Kareem to .383 shooting (while shooting .545 himself.) So, Kareem basically shot over 50% in about one-third of their encounters, and shot under .399 in more than he did over 50%.


Now, move to the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons. A 37-38 old Kareem (actually, a 38-39 Kareem), who could barely get high enough to get 6 rpg, played a 22 and 23 year old Hakeem in ten straight games. How about this... 31.8 ppg on an eye-popping .630 FG% (once again...their first ten H2H games.) Included in those games, were games of 40 (on 16-29 shooting), 42 (on 16-24 shooting), and 46 (on 21-30 shooting....and in only 37 minutes.) Furthermore, Hakeem was guarding Kareem in all ten of those games.

Granted, in the 85-86 playoffs, Hakeem outscored Kareem, per game, 31-27 ppg, and outrebounded him, 11-7 rpg, while outshooting Kareem, .520 to .496. BUT, it was Sampson who guarded Kareem (with Hakeem doubling quite often.)

Sampson was injured after, and once again, it was Hakeem against Kareem in their last 13 games, when Kareem was 39-41 years old (actually 42.)

Overall, the two went H2H in 23 games (not including the 85-86 playoffs.) Kareem, from ages 37 to 41 (actually 42) battled a Hakeem, from ages 22-26. Kareem led his Lakers to an 18-5 record in those 23 games.

And how about their scoring and FG%'s numbers overall? Hakeem averaged 22.3 ppg against Kareem in those 23 games, and on .512 shooting. Kareem averaged 22.6 ppg on, get this... .610 shooting in those 23 games.

Even factoring in the 85-86 playoffs, their overall record and numbers were as follows in all 28 games:

Kareem held a 19-9 W-L record.
Kareem averaged 23.4 ppg on .582 shooting
Hakeem averaged 23.9 ppg on .514


Now, how about these numbers...

In their 23 H2H games, in which Hakeem guarded Kareem:

Kareem shot 50% or better in 20 of them (and in the other three he shot a total 12-29 or .414.)

Kareem shot less than .399 in one of those 23 games (3-9)

Kareem shot over 60% in TWELVE of 23 games.

And Kareem shot over 70% in FIVE of them.


If you include the five playoff games, when Sampson was the one assigned to Kareem defensively:

Kareem shot over 50% in 23 of the 28 games.

Kareem shot over 60% in twelve total games, and over 70% in five of them.


Once again, keep in mind that Kareem was playing at ages 37-41 while Hakeem was aged 22-26.

BTW, Kareem had that 46 point game, on 21-30 shooting, in only 37 minutes against Hakeem, and within a few days of that game, he buried Patrick Ewing by a 40-9 margin (outshooting Patrick, 15-22 to 3-17.)


So, a way-past-his prime Kareem was able to dominate a younger Hakeem, and battle him to a draw in the last couple of seasons, as well as crushing a young Ewing.

Yet, a PRIME Kareem stuggled against a way-past-his-prime Wilt in 27 of their 28 H2H's (and Wilt easily outplayed Kareem in their one encounter before his knee injury.)

On top of that, Kareem faced 6-11 Nate Thurmond in some 50 H2H games, and seldom even scored 30 points on him (with a high game of only 34 points in those 50+ games.) And overall, there is a good chance that Kareem didn't even shoot .450 against Nate in those 50+ games. In three straight playoff series, a PRIME Kareem shot .486, .428, and even .405 against Thurmond (and Thurmond even outscored and outshot him in one of those playoff series, 25.0 and .437 to Kareem's 22.8 ppg on .405 shooting.)

Then, factor in that a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain faced Nate in about a dozen games, and in a string of 11 straight games, Wilt averaged 30 ppg against him, and with games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and 45 points (outscoring Thurmond, 45-13.)

A PRIME "scoring" Wilt also had an entire season, covering nine H2H games, in which he averaged 40.1 ppg against HOFer Willis Reed, including games of 52 and 58. A PRIME "scoring" Wilt had an entire season, covering 10 H2H games, against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy, in which he averaged a mind-numbing 52.7 ppg , and with three games of 60+ (including a high game of 73.) Then, in the following season, Wilt averaged 43.7 ppg against Bellamy. And a PRIME "scoring" Wilt had several 30+ ppg seasons against Russell, including two of 39.7 ppg and 38.1 ppg. Overall, Chamberlain had FIVE games of 50+ against Russell, with a high game of 62 points (on 27-45 shooting.)

And while an OLD Wilt held his own against a PRIME Kareem,we were never fortunate enough to have witnessed a PRIME Chamberlain against Kareem. A Wilt who was bigger, stronger, more athletic, and as skilled.


Using Kareem as a "bridge" and we can clearly see that the great centers of the 60's would have more than held their own against the great centers of the 80's and 90's (Ewing and Hakeem.) And given the fact that Hakeem battled Shaq to a draw in the '95 Finals, it is also pretty clear that the greats of the 60's would have been great in the 00's, as well.

[QUOTE]First of all, Brian, we know it's you.
I know you're butthurt and all but this is just pathetic..

And 2nd, [B]you can get a hint of a players skillset and abilities through stats and I didn't write that I was some kind of expert but it's easy to tell if someone's mediocre or garbage and that was the only thing I did. [/B]

Do you need a 5 page analyze of players who played 60 games in their NBA career? A scrub is a scrub. Or players who never made any all-NBA team or weren't even close and who had short statistical peaks where they didn't excel in anything? A player like that is mediocre no matter what. Go find something controversial with my previous post, Brian..[/QUOTE]

Point out the scrubs: Do you even know who any of these guys are? :lol
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPcmQMdiPw4[/url]

[QUOTE=-23-]You're the bigger moron to believe it.

Eye witness accounts? SO you think 9/11 missiles hit the WTC because of "eye witness accounts" or bombs going off because of "eye witness accounts".

Take off the tin foil hat, it's cutting off your circulation.

Moron.[/QUOTE]

Let's see those calculations bruh!


Tex Winters >>>>>>> -23-

[QUOTE=-23-]If it's capable of being done, why hasn't anyone since done it? He did not hold NCAA records for high jump or triple jump? "He ran a 100-yard dash in 10.9 seconds and bettered his high school record by throwing a shotput 56-feet. He also won the high jump in the Big Eight Track and Field Championships for three years in a row and triple jumped more than 50-feet." [B]Neither of those are NCAA champ level, nor olympic level for that matter.[/B]

Don't get me wrong, he's a phenomenal athlete. I can't stand retards who claim he can FT dunk from 3 steps. [B]You'd think one person at the time would be like "hey, this guy did something I've never seen before, I should take a picture".[/B] I take all these Wilt claims with a grain of salt.[/QUOTE]

:roll:

[CODE][B]1953[/B]
Philadelphia City-League Invitational
5'10" - 1st
([I]City League Champion[/I])

[B]1955[/B]
Philadelphia City-League Invitational
6'2" - 1st
([I]City-League Champion[/I])

[B]1956[/B]
(ineligible to place, freshman) KU Relays
46' 2.5" - Triple-Jump

[B]1957[/B]
KU Relays
45' 9" - 3rd, Triple Jump
6'6" - 2nd (tie)

[B]1957[/B]
Drake Relays Invitational
6'6.25" - 1st (tie)

[B]1957[/B]
Big-Seven Championship Track Meet
[U]([I]NCAA D1 Conference Champion[/I])[/U]
6'5" - 1st

[B]1958[/B]
Big-Eight Championship Track Meet (indoor)
[U]([I]NCAA D1 Conference Champion[/I])[/U]
6'6.75" - 1st ([U][I]KU Indoor Record[/I][/U])[/CODE]

Olympic gold in 1956 was a 6'11.5" jump. Wilt was 4.75" away from this. He used the [I]Western Roll[/I] technique but literally, he sucked ass at it, he couldn't keep his trail leg in check. Based on his athleticism Wilt was predicted by his coach to exceed 7 foot jumps if he mastered that technique. But he did not commit to Track, basketball came first and foremost at that point. Wilt did not even practice/participate in any Track-related activities for 1958 until the Track coach asked him if he could help out with the conference meet. He wins it with a PR and sets the KU record :facepalm. [U]Wilt's PR of 6'6.75" is good enough to have placed 5th place in the 1956 Olympics[/U]. 28 countries sent High Jumpers to compete that year.

Don't pretend he's not elite in Track and Field. No NBA player today is capable of hanging with that class of High Jumpers. Wilt was a ****ing thoroughbred on the Track, he just happened to play that sport called basketball too.


And.... :wtf:
How do you "take a picture" of a free throw dunk (as if a picture is good enough evidence for you to believe he leapt from A to B anyways) :facepalm

And you take things with grain of Salt? More like a mine of Salt.

It's Tex Winters, basketball legend and 1956 Chairman of The NCAA Men's Basketball Rules Committee.... You suggest that he [I]lied[/I] to his entire committee of coaches that needed to take their time to collaborate and vote for official NCAA rule changes involving free-throw dunks? WHY? To **** with everybody!? Here we've got as important a basketball guy as anyone who says who/what/when/where and why and you say he's a retard and so is anyone who believes him :facepalm. Okay kid. Why did he lie to everyone then. Is he secretly some big prankster who's motive was to scare the ****ing shit out of the NCAA so that they would make useless rule changes too the official rule book?
This has the foundation of "conspiracy theory" written all over it. You don't think Wilt was capable of doing things that pretty much anyone that ever met him had no trouble believing at all. So, because you don't know anyone or know OF anyone like Wilt Chamberlain, you won't buy into the idea that he's one-of-a-kind and you assume he might as well be as real as Santa Clause.

Another Wilt jocker among us...

60's were a weak era, it's why George Mikan dominated in the 50s (5 championships, more than Mr. 1-11 Wilt)

Watching games from the 60's is pretty funny
:facepalm @ thinking that era is even close to the same

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Another Wilt jocker among us...

60's were a weak era, it's why George Mikan dominated in the 50s (5 championships, more than Mr. 1-11 Wilt)

Watching games from the 60's is pretty funny
:facepalm @ thinking that era is even close to the same[/QUOTE]

Again... Do you even know who any of these guys are? :roll:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPcmQMdiPw4[/url]

:hammerhead:

I suppose you think they don't look any good :roll:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPcmQMdiPw4#t=2m25s[/url]

But...but West could not dribble with his left hand! The video is definitely fake...You only showed some fake NBA 2k12 footage!!1

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Again... Do you even know who any of these guys are? :roll:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPcmQMdiPw4[/url]

:hammerhead:

I suppose you think they don't look any good :roll:[/QUOTE]

bunch of athletic black guys dominating short white boys and everyone once in a while throw in a terrible balding tall guy.

whats your point?

besides if you played clips of todays games next to your clip it would like like the NBA vs Division 3 College.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]
[IMG]http://www.eba-stats.com/images/legends/chamberlain_jabbar.JPG[/IMG]
[IMG]http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqwgl5r2af1qz7ni3o1_400.jpg[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]
At first I didn't think much of these pictures but then your mind starts playing back to how Kareem used to sometimes shoot the skyhook downward in the 80's. We can tell by his stats that he was much more lively in leaving his feet in early 70's. That's when you realize how high Wilt was getting in these pics. And you can see Kareem is at full extension and with hops here.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Again... Do you even know who any of these guys are? :roll:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPcmQMdiPw4[/url]

:hammerhead:

I suppose you think they don't look any good :roll:[/QUOTE]

How cute of you to upload a video dedicated to me and how cute of you to put on some dramatic music while only showing highlights and why the shift in speed between slow and fast and then normal...:facepalm

And it's pretty sad because it's obvious that you've been around ISH before so why the need of multiple accounts, no one beside a butthurt poster write the way you do.. :facepalm

And 03:08 is a great example of a player having a sucky lefty..

[QUOTE=Psileas][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPcmQMdiPw4#t=2m25s[/url]

But...but West could not dribble with his left hand! The video is definitely fake...You only showed some fake NBA 2k12 footage!!1[/QUOTE]

How'd you like West's [I]chase-down blocks[/I]? :pimp:

Who here LOVES algebra?... well I don't either but I've got an interesting mystery I can take shed light on using simple algebra.

[B]Jerry West's Wingspan[/B]

Jerry West has a 37.5" sleeve length.
Wilt Chamberlain has a 37.5" sleeve length.

Their actual tape measurement was likely this:
[I]37.5" - 1" =[/I] [U]36.5"[/U]
(American sleeve-length = middle of the neck/spine to the break of the wrist +1")

Their arm-spans (minus their hands) would be this:
[I]36.5 x 2 = [/I][U]73"[/U]

Great, but we need hand size to add to this....

Wilt's hands in 1956 are measured to be 9.5" in length from the break of the wrist:
[url]http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-photo/rights-managed/BE051863/young-wilt-chamberlain-displays-hands[/url]

[I]73" + 9.5"(x2)[/I] = 92" or exactly [U]7'8" [/U] Wingspan Calculated for Wilt Chamberlain
Double Checking my Math:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYEbga0XueA&t=6m7s[/url]




So then we must ask ourselves... how long are Jerry's hands? :confusedshrug: I don't know, never found any numbers but I've heard his hands described as cartoon hands (big) on numerous occasions though that could mean wide not necessarily long. So, very conservatively I'll guess between a very modest 7.5"-8.0" long.

Using the same formula as Chamberlain, and based on peoples descriptions of West also being gifted with large hands, that means at the very lowest estimates he likely had at least a 7'4-7'5" wingspan...

Anyone wanna critique those results or double-check that method? I think most of those superstars were good for a reason, West wasn't just some 6'2 guy, he was a physical specimen - his wingspan at his size actually put's guys like Rondo to shame.

[QUOTE=jlauber]I have said it many times, but Kareem is one of the "bridges" that spanned the end of Wilt's NBA career, to the middle of Hakeem's. In fact, his career nearly spanned FOUR decades (1969-thru 1989.)

Once again, Kareem's two greatest statistical seasons came in his second and third seasons. In his 70-71 season, at age 23 (actually 24), he averaged 31.7 ppg, 16.0 rpg, on .577 shooting (and BTW, his .128 differential over the league average was the highest of his career), and along the way he not only won the MVP, but the FMVP. In his 71-72 season, at age 24 (25), he averaged 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, and shot .574.

By contrast, Chamberlain had arguably the WORST season of his career in 70-71. He "only" averaged 20.7 ppg, 18.2 rpg (which was his career LOW), and on .545 shooting (which was a mediocre season for Wilt.) Then, in the post-season, he "only" averaged 18.3 ppg, 20.2 rpg (a career LOW in the post-season), on a very un-Wilt-like .455 shooting.) Of course, he was 34 years old, and only a year removed from major knee surgery.

So what you ask? This was a Kareem at his [B]absolute finest,[/B] and a Chamberlain at arguably his WORST.[/QUOTE]

A tall, skinny Kareem wasn't at his absolutely finest at all.

[QUOTE=LBJMVP]bunch of athletic black guys dominating short white boys and everyone once in a while throw in a terrible balding tall guy.

whats your point?

besides if you played clips of todays games next to your clip it would like like the NBA vs Division 3 College.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2akdYIFJ2A[/url]
Joel, oft-cited as an analogue to 60's players is chucking airballs on a layup w/o anyone in his face or making contact. :facepalm Think he could play in the 1960's with all those bodies in the paint and all that contact that was still very much allowed?

:roll:

That's the point of the footage. Anyone with an unbias opinion and a set of eyes can see that at least half of those 60's guys would be ballin in today's league with a pair of Nike's and a pre-season to adjust to the rule tweaks. They can shoot. They can dribble. They can drive. That era was as athletically diverse as the range of players today's league. This goes the same in the other direction.

At least half of today's league could ball in that league as well (today's a massive league, 30 teams) but at least half, also would NOT have enough talent to ball in that league. Not IMHO. I'm sorry, but guys like Joel Anthony, Ryan Hollins?... pffft :lol ... they just couldn't, especially when you consider the equipment and rule tweaks etc. Sorry Big Joel, no orthopedics and big platform shoes for your diminutive 6'6 height at center, and nothing to save your fragile frankenstein legs. He'd be smoked on every fast break and stuffed on his awful shot attempts. Even the worst centers in that league could hit a hook. In our league the 30th pick is still round 1. In a 9 team league the 30th pick is literally the end of the line and he's prob going to sit on the bench and get cut until next years 1st and 2nd round picks anyways. :roll:

[QUOTE=PTB Fan]A tall, skinny Kareem wasn't at his absolutely finest at all.[/QUOTE]

:facepalm Starts as ROY, then settles into his modest early years as a 2 time scoring champ 3-time MVP (in 5 years), 2-time champion, finals MVP, the dominant scorer of his team every year, leagues leading shot-blocker, and MVP of one of the top 5 teams in NBA history.... + First team and all defensive team picks during those years....

What you been smokin bro? That skinny Kareem was > athletic and dominant than Laker Kareem

[QUOTE=millwad]How cute of you to upload a video dedicated to me and how cute of you to put on some dramatic music while only showing highlights and why the shift in speed between slow and fast and then normal...:facepalm

And it's pretty sad because it's obvious that you've been around ISH before so why the need of multiple accounts, no one beside a butthurt poster write the way you do.. :facepalm

And 03:08 is a great example of a player having a sucky lefty..[/QUOTE]

I've been a reader of these boards for about a year - don't have any other accounts.

And uhhhh... you've never seen a mix-tape!? They all add music... they all use slow motion shit all the time :facepalm and I dropped it from NTSC to PAL for a deliberately choppy frame rate, - which is another simple trick many mix-tapes use. I also color-corrected it to get rid of the yellowed drab look. I guess I shouldn't be tampering with mix tape footage to give it dramatic appeal right? Mix tapes are all about being ordinary :roll:

Would you have rather I kept that leave it to beaver style music, the ugly blurry looking corroded film, and announcers that quipped "pretty!" after a slam that would've give modern announcers a ****ing heart-attack? Such makes for fair demonstrations of their abilities right?... Someone finally makes a standard looking half-ass Youtube mix using 60's footage and you complain. :cry:


[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPcmQMdiPw4[/url]
Is it because these guys actually look talented and you don't want to admit it?

[QUOTE]You'd think one person at the time would be like "hey, this guy did something I've never seen before, I should take a picture". [/QUOTE]

You wouldnt think it if you took a moment to consider the situation. This wasnt 2010. It was 1955 or so(HS wilt). Playing high school ball. The NBA finals were not even always on tv back then. Shit in the 80s the NBA finals were on tape delay. This is 60 years ago. Everyone didnt have camera phones. Do you know how big a deal it was when quick use disposable cameras came around? When I was a kid they were new. And that was not the 50s.

People wouldnt be standing around a high school practice with Tex Winter with video cameras. They wouldnt usually even be at NBA games getting lots of footage in the mid 50s.

But you think its likely someone schedules a film crew or something to record Wilt doing a Ft line dunk...in high school?

They wouldnt send a film crew to see George Mikan more often than not. But they are gonna film and preserve(for 60 years) footage of a HS kid doing dunks to confirm what several people say they saw? I dont think they would have much if any motivation.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]I've been a reader of these boards for about a year - don't have any other accounts.

And uhhhh... you've never seen a mix-tape!? They all add music... they all use slow motion shit all the time :facepalm and I dropped it from NTSC to PAL for a deliberately choppy frame rate, - which is another simple trick many mix-tapes use. I also color-corrected it to get rid of the yellowed drab look. I guess I shouldn't be tampering with mix tape footage to give it dramatic appeal right? Mix tapes are all about being ordinary :roll:

Would you have rather I kept that leave it to beaver style music, the ugly blurry looking corroded film, and announcers that quipped "pretty!" after a slam that would've give modern announcers a ****ing heart-attack? Such makes for fair demonstrations of their abilities right?... Someone finally makes a standard looking half-ass Youtube mix using 60's footage and you complain. :cry:


[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPcmQMdiPw4[/url]
Is it because these guys actually look talented and you don't want to admit it?[/QUOTE]

I appreciate the fact that you made the video but I didn't like the part were you speed up some plays and slow mo'd other plays, it's just stupid and a try to mislead the viewers.

I don't put much value to highlight videos at all to be honest, and I have my reasons. I play basketball in the swedish basketball league and I've played games for the swedish youth national team and I'll tell you this, highlights are so misleading.

We were playing Bulgaria I think it was and youth players don't have much footage or info out there but our scouting went all wrong due highlight videos. One of their guys I guarded looked amazing in his highlight video but kid couldn't ball, he was a true showboater and he took stupid flashy shots all game long. I had him locked down for 9 points but the dude who who absolutely destroyed us (he was playing pro in Germany last I checked) had a random highlight video out there with some misses and some makes but nothing spectacular at all.

Every player can look spectacular in highlight videos, that's my point and it's true as well. Hell, I even saw a Chris Mihm highlight-video where he looked great. Mixtapes/highlights are crazy misleading and especially with all the nonsense slow mo and extra speed..

If you want to live in your imaginary world where you think that those oldschool ballers were just as skilled as modern era players, then go ahead. But there's an obvious reason why they shot with crappy FG% and there's a reason why guys who didn't jump when they were attempting JUMP shots could be all-stars. I even saw all-star footage of warm-ups were 5 straight guys struggled with a simple left-handed lay-up, either they missed it or shot it with the right or went under the basket for a right handed lay-up.

Get real, your quotes doesn't change the facts..

[QUOTE=millwad]I appreciate the fact that you made the video but [B]I didn't like the part were you speed up some plays and slow mo'd other plays[/B], it's just stupid and a try to mislead the viewers.

I don't put much value to highlight videos at all to be honest, and I have my reasons. I play basketball in the swedish basketball league and I've played games for the swedish youth national team and I'll tell you this, [B]highlights are so misleading[/B].

We were playing Bulgaria I think it was and youth players don't have much footage or info out there but our scouting went all wrong due highlight videos. One of their guys I guarded looked amazing in his highlight video but kid couldn't ball, he was a true showboater and he took stupid flashy shots all game long. I had him locked down for 9 points but the dude who who absolutely destroyed us (he was playing pro in Germany last I checked) had a random highlight video out there with some misses and some makes but nothing spectacular at all.

Every player can look spectacular in highlight videos, that's my point and it's true as well. Hell, I even saw a Chris Mihm highlight-video where he looked great. Mixtapes/highlights are crazy misleading and especially with all the nonsense slow mo and extra speed..

If you want to live in your imaginary world where you think that those oldschool ballers were just as skilled as modern era players, then go ahead. [B]But there's an obvious reason why they shot with crappy FG% and there's a reason why guys who didn't jump when they were attempting JUMP shots could be all-stars.[/B] [B]I even saw all-star footage of warm-ups were 5 straight guys struggled with a simple left-handed lay-up, either they missed it or shot it with the right or went under the basket for a right handed lay-up.[/B]

Get real, your quotes doesn't change the facts..[/QUOTE]

Perhaps your confusing "speed up" with the choppy PAL frame rate of 25fps vs typical NTSC 29-30fps... There's slow mo... than there's regular. And anyways doing everything I did for every reason I did it IS the point of any mixtape or highlight, it's emphasizing moves, setting the stage, showcasing talent. It's not a game film for players to study, its a mix tape for fans to enjoy. I can't help it if you don't like it's what every mix tape is all about :confusedshrug: .

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvknOlKuBjw[/url]
Does that guy look spectacular? Does that look ANYTHING like say, Wilt Chamberlain's abilities in his high school footage? Sorry but even fancy editing can't make wine out of water, that dude ****ing sucks in comparison yet he's still prob gonna make some sort of post-highschool career.

And... fg%?

Defense. Very physical hands-on defense. The type that's not allowed today - and the change in defensive rules has indeed inflated player fg% now it's not a shift in talent, it's that guards are now allowed to charge a center and he's likely to get a "foul" if the center even breathes on him. If you made a drive on Wilt you were going back down on the floor. Watch the video again, look at the narrower lane its smaller real-estate thus jam packed with forwards or centers. If you couldn't shoot with range you were going to face the unbreakable wall of that tightly packed key. The best way to counter this in the coaches minds at that time was just run the fast break like mad. And they did. There's reasons for the stat changes sure, but blaming it on talent? Come on man. That league had plenty of talent to go around.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Perhaps your confusing "speed up" with the choppy PAL frame rate of 25fps vs typical NTSC 29-30fps... There's slow mo... than there's regular. And anyways doing everything I did for every reason I did it IS the point of any mixtape or highlight, it's emphasizing moves, setting the stage, showcasing talent. It's not a game film for players to study, its a mix tape for fans to enjoy. I can't help it if you don't like it's what every mix tape is all about :confusedshrug: .

There is no honesty in entertainment[/QUOTE]

I am not trying to diss you for the video you did, I actually liked the video and looked at it at least 3 times and it sure thing was better then the most highlights from that era on youtube.

What I didn't like was the fact that you tried to use it as proof for their skillset. I know as a fact that the games improved over time and if anyone watch a longer game tape they'll tell you like it is.

And I also know that mixtapes and highlights are crappy when talking about skillset, it's just misleading and that's why I never give a crap about how good anyone look in a mixtape. Just compare your mixtape to a longer game tape and you'll know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, thanks for the video and this is a stupid discussion anyway. Nothing anyone writes in this thread will change the others mind. It's always like this, Jlauber copies stats from google and acts like he's a historian with his biased standpoints and then we have fanboys who absolutely love his texts and then we have people like me who just dissmiss everything he writes due his crappy credibility no matter if it's true or not. It never leads no where and we are all obviously wasting our time.

It's a shame that Jlauber takes so much space in Wilt discussions, you've probably noticed how better posters guys like Psileas and some others are.

[QUOTE=millwad]I am not trying to diss you for the video you did, I actually liked the video and looked at it at least 3 times and it sure thing was better then the most highlights from that era on youtube.

What I didn't like was the fact that you tried to use it as proof for their skillset. I know as a fact that the games improved over time and if anyone watch a longer game tape they'll tell you like it is.

And I also know that mixtapes and highlights are crappy when talking about skillset, it's just misleading and that's why I never give a crap about how good anyone look in a mixtape. Just compare your mixtape to a longer game tape and you'll know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, thanks for the video and this is a stupid discussion anyway. Nothing anyone writes in this thread will change the others mind. It's always like this, Jlauber copies stats from google and acts like he's a historian with his biased standpoints and then we have fanboys who absolutely love his texts and then we have people like me who just dissmiss everything he writes due his crappy credibility no matter if it's true or not. It never leads no where and we are all obviously wasting our time.

It's a shame that Jlauber takes so much space in Wilt discussions, you've probably noticed how better posters guys like Psileas and some others are.[/QUOTE]

Glad that you liked the video - I hope it at least opens your mind even if it doesn't change it.

That era wasn't a bunch of small/short white guys nor are they unathletic or any of that.

Take #16, the white guy in the very beggining. One might think he's got a surprisingly smooth handle for that time. But bahhh it's still too easy to dismiss him as a "small" white-guy after that right? Except....

It's Cliff Hagen. He's only a guard. And he's every bit as tall in his barefeet and just as heavy as todays Tyreke Evans. Then there's Oscar, who is even bigger than Cliff who plays PG. In his barefeet Oscar stands just slightly taller than MJ or Kobe - and watch his intensity and his ability to drive pass or shoot - how could his size, intensity IQ and abilities [I]not[/I] translate to a superstar in today's league?

Don't need to answer that, it's just food for thought.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]... Ming and Wallace are two of the best centers ever. Shaq said he considers Yao a top 5 center of all time. Wallace is arguably a top 5 defender and rebounder all time. Then a couple others I mentioned are HOFers. [B]Reality is Wilt had nobody that could even try to body him up, Shaq did.[/B]

Sabonis, Wallace and Yao all had their success against Shaq in the paint at some point or another.[/QUOTE]

Please do some actual research on this and then get back to me. I could (and have) DESTROYED that assertion before, but now I want YOU to back up that statement. Chamberlain was SWARMED and BRUTALIZED in his career, and no other player in NBA history was more defended. I can back up my claim...let's see you back up your's.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You wouldnt think it if you took a moment to consider the situation. This wasnt 2010. It was 1955 or so(HS wilt). Playing high school ball. The NBA finals were not even always on tv back then. Shit in the 80s the NBA finals were on tape delay. This is 60 years ago. Everyone didnt have camera phones. Do you know how big a deal it was when quick use disposable cameras came around? When I was a kid they were new. And that was not the 50s.

People wouldnt be standing around a high school practice with Tex Winter with video cameras. They wouldnt usually even be at NBA games getting lots of footage in the mid 50s.

But you think its likely someone schedules a film crew or something to record Wilt doing a Ft line dunk...in high school?

They wouldnt send a film crew to see George Mikan more often than not. But they are gonna film and preserve(for 60 years) footage of a HS kid doing dunks to confirm what several people say they saw? I dont think they would have much if any motivation.[/QUOTE]


Great points...Plus i would imagine the costs to get that type of equipment back then didn't justify the means....

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Tex Winter said that the League changed the rules so Counts had to actually shoot his freethrows instead of dunking them like he did in high school.[/QUOTE]

Of course, the REAL intention of the above comment was a slap in the direction of Chamberlain.

And, yet, we have a YouTube INTERVIEW in which the highly respected Tex Winter claims that he headed up a team to ban the dunking of FTAs because he WITNESSED a young Wilt, with a few steps behind the line, dunking a FT attempt.

But beyond that, these "anti-Chamberlain" posters always bring up the so-called "myths" about Wilt. That he killed a mountain lion with his bare hands (hell, we don't know for sure...how big was the mountain lion?) Or that he broke the toe of a player with a vicious dunk (BTW, WILT never claimed that feat, but instead, it was the ACTUAL player who said so.)

In my first couple of years on this forum, these "Chamberlain-haters" would constantly challenge my claims. Where was the footage, they asked, of Wilt's supposed "leaping ability?" Or his supposed "shooting range?" Or that he was actually facing taller players? Or that he was "doubled?"

Well, in the last few months, someone using the name of Dantheman, has posted a TON of VIDEO footage on YouTube...and lo-and-behold, we now SEE Chamberlain blocking a shot, with no time to react, and going straight up, in which his fingertips are within a couple of inches of the top of the backboard. Or multiple single game highlights of Chamberlain routinely hitting a variety of shots from 15+ feet. Or a SWARMED Chamberlain rising above 6-10+ centers and hitting bank shots from 10-15 ft.

And, once again, Sonny Hill, a highly respected icon in Philadelphia sports history, claiming that he witnessed Wilt touching the top of the backboard. (BTW, long time Sixer trainer, Al Domenico also claimed that.) Of course, it was well known during the Chamberlain era that he did, in fact, accomplish that very feat. Or Philly sportswriter George Kiseda measuring a verical leap, by Chamberlain, in a hospital, of 42". Of course, we also know that Wilt's college coach rolled out a 12 ft rim, and there have been those that claim that Chamberlain was dunking on it.

There were those that challenged my take that Wilt was ROUTINELY blocking a PRIME and ATHLETIC Kareem's "unblockable" sky hook. BUT, we not only have game logs in Chamberlain was blocking 4-5 or more of Kareem's shots (surely many of them were skyhooks), we also have VIDEO footage of Wilt blocking not one, but TWO, skyhooks within a matter seconds.


Of course, there are MANY claims of Wilt's staggering strength. However, there are also some interesting articles, as well. SI ran a story in 1964, in which Chamberlain was already credited with a 425 bench. That was long before Wilt would reach his peak. We also have an interview by Robert Cherry, with a known weight-lifter, who was 6-5 and 250 lbs, and who was easily capable of benching over 500 lbs, claiming that Wilt was the strongest man he ever met. Or an EYE-WITNESS interview, in which he claimed that he witnessed Chamberlain benching 465 lbs...at age 59! And, of course, Wilt then acknowledged that he could have done more (as well as claiming he HAD done more in his lifetime.)

Just GOOGLE Wilt's vertical or bench. The internet is PLASTERED with stories with incredible claims.

BUT, it goes beyond that. Wilt played with and against dozens of coachs in his lifetime. He played with and against hundreds, if not thousands, of players in his career. He was closely followed by many members of the media, and was SEEN by thousands, of not millions, of fans. And here we have all of these "mythical" feats, and yet, where are those that would DISPUTE them???? Surely Wilt must have tried to touch the top of the backboard in practice with surrounding teammates on more than one occasion, and yet, not one LEGITIMATE eye-witness has ever stepped forth to dispute that he indeed accomplished it. And surely Wilt worked out with many partners and in view of many other's in his lifetime, and yet, not one LEGITIMATE first-hand account disputing those that claimed that Wilt had a 500+ bench press???

If anything, we now KNOW that those many eye-popping physical feats were NOT "myths", but were actual FACTS.

Jlauber, why you trying to teach common sense to a bunch of degenerates who have Lin avatars like some hype-driven loons?? Keep doing what you do man, cuz you do it well....Most of those who don't agree with you can't discredit your posts. Like you said, they will sight "mountain lion", post some childish gif, then go *********e in the shower.

[QUOTE=bwink23]Jlauber, why you trying to teach common sense to a bunch of degenerates who have Lin avatars like some hype-driven loons?? Keep doing what you do man, cuz you do it well....Most of those who don't agree with you can't discredit your posts. Like you said, they will sight "mountain lion", post some childish gif, then go *********e in the shower.[/QUOTE]

The Wilt "Double Standard" on this forum, at least in several cases, is just ridiculous.

I have read so many posts that Wilt was a "stats-padding" "loser" who "choked" in his biggest games. And, yet, I have proven that he was perhaps the MOST CLUTCH "big game" player of all-time (with only Jordan having a case over him.) Wilt not only put up HUGE games in his "must-win" and "series clinching" post-season games, he routinely CRUSHED his opposing center in them, as well.

And it fascinates me that Kareem, who was arguably a GOAT candidate, is held in some kind of higher esteem, and yet, when the two played in the league together for four seasons, an OLD Wilt was a better "winner" than a PRIME Kareem. Or that an OLD Wilt could battle a PRIME Kareem to a statistical draw in one H2H season, and by ALL accounts, outplay a Kareem in his greatest statistical season, in another. Even a Chamberlain in his LAST season battled a PRIME Kareem to a relative draw in their H2H's. And virtually no one brings up this interesting fact...in Kareem's rookie season, in a year in which he averaged 28.8 ppg on .518 shooting, Wilt started out that same season leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg on .600 shooting, in his first nine games, which included a H2H in which Chamberlain just pounded Kareem. Granted, that was a rookie Kareem, and he would go on to become a much greater player, but that was also NOT a PRIME Chamberlain, either. Wilt was in his 11th season at the time.

Furthermore, Kareem's first ten years, in his absolute prime, were much more of a "loser", and a "choker" than Wilt's first ten seasons, and in his prime. And, as well now all know, a PRIME Chamberlain dominated his peers FAR more than a PRIME Kareem did his, including the fact that they both faced some of the same centers.

Nor do the "anti-Wilt" clan ever credit Chamberlain with taking PUTRID rosters, who played even WORSE in the post-season, to within an eye-lash of beating Russell's HOF-laden Celtic teams, in the apex of their dynasty, TWICE. Or that a PRIME Chamberlain led an equally talented supporting cast to a rout of the Celtic Dynasty, in a series in which Wilt just SHELLED Russell.

Or that Wilt led 12 teams to the Conference Finals in his 14 seasons. Or that he led his team's to six division titles, and six conference finals. Or that Chamberlain went to SIX Finals. Or that Wilt played on teams with the best record in the league (in talent-rich NBA seasons) FOUR times. Or that he led his team to 60+ wins on FOUR occasions (which was one more time than even Russell did.) Or that Chamberlain anchored TWO teams that went 68-13 and 69-13, and won dominating world titles.

He was the game's greatest scorer, rebounder, and arguably (considering the league's he played in) the most efficient shooter of all time. And, at his peak he was perhaps on the level of even the great Russell in terms of defensive impact. Or that a PRIME Wilt LED the NBA in assists, and came in third in another season. Or that Chamberlain was perhaps the greatest shot-blocker of all-time.

And Wilt not only was the best in all of the above, he was often LIGHT YEARS ahead of his peers in MANY of them.

And, of course, he wasn't doing it against non-athletic 6-6 white centers, but in actuality, was dominating 6-11+ athletic centers in his entire career, including several 7-0 footers.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]:facepalm Starts as ROY, then settles into his modest early years as a 2 time scoring champ 3-time MVP (in 5 years), 2-time champion, finals MVP, the dominant scorer of his team every year, leagues leading shot-blocker, and MVP of one of the top 5 teams in NBA history.... + First team and all defensive team picks during those years....

What you been smokin bro? That skinny Kareem was > athletic and dominant than Laker Kareem[/QUOTE]

:no:

Laker Kareem>Milwaukee Kareem.

Not even close. Bucks version of Kareem got pushed out of his comfortable spots for the sky hook. And LA Kareem killed it in that regard.He was bulked up, by then he could shot the sky hook with the left hand and from bigger distance.

Defensively he was dominant, better all-around player and was a far better passer out of the post. He averaged 6.3 assists at one point of his season. He peaked in his days as a Laker overall.

[QUOTE=PTB Fan]:no:

Laker Kareem>Milwaukee Kareem.
[/QUOTE]
:cheers: 1976-77 season speaks for itself already.

[QUOTE=PTB Fan]:no:

Laker Kareem>Milwaukee Kareem.

Not even close. Bucks version of Kareem got pushed out of his comfortable spots for the sky hook. And LA Kareem killed it in that regard.He was bulked up, by then he could shot the sky hook with the left hand and from bigger distance.

Defensively he was dominant, better all-around player and was a far better passer out of the post. He averaged 6.3 assists at one point of his season. He peaked in his days as a Laker overall.[/QUOTE]

Not even close???

You are absolutely out of your mind. In fact, how about this? In Kareem's 71-72 season, he played 44.2 mpg, averaged 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, shot .574, and averaged 4.6 apg. And he accomplished all of that on a team that romped to a 63-19 record, and had a whopping +11.1 ppg differential.

Then, playing with an average supporting cast, at best, in his 75-76 Laker season, he played 41.2 mpg, averaged 27.7 ppg, which was among his worst seasons in the 70's, and shot .529 from the floor, which was his third WORST season of that decade. Granted, he led the NBA in rebounding, at 16.9 rpg, but before anyone gets too excited about that, it was his ONLY rebounding title, and he barely edged 6-9 Dave Cowens, who was at 16.0 rpg. The other leaders were 6-7 Wes Unseld, 6-7 Paul Silas, and 6-10 Sam Lacey. Gone were the dominant rebounders like Wilt and Thurmond. And of course, the biggest question simply has to be...in a season in which his team needed him to be a dominant scorer, he basically couldn't do it. And it wasn't like no one was scoring, either. McAdoo ran away with the scoing title, at 31.1 ppg, and the season before, he romped over Kareem, with a 34.5 ppg average (in a league that only averaged 102.6 ppg.)

And I will stand by my assertion that Kareem's all-around greatest season came in his SECOND season. He easily led the league in scoring at 31.7 ppg, and in only 40.1 mpg, while grabbing 16.0 rpg, and shooting .577 (which was his greatest differential against the league-average... .128 points...of his entire career.) He won the MVP, and then went on to win the FMVP, and on a team that went 66-16. BTW, the Bucks DEFENSE, in the Kareem's years, were simply among the greatest defensive team's EVER. They were holding opponents to .420, .422, and .424 seasons. Kareem was a MAJOR factor in that.

IMHO, while Kareem was a little bigger, and a little stronger by the mid-70's, he had lost some motivation, and was not as dominant as he could have been. Even more damaging, was the fact the NBA from the time Chamberlain retired in '73, until the emergence of Bird and Magic in the '80 season, was probably the weakest in it's history. The '75 Warriors won a title, with Rick Barry and rookie Keith (Jamaal) Wilkes, and a cast of no-names, who went 48-34. In the '77 season, the 49-33 Trailblazers not only won the title, they SWEPT Kareem's 53-29 Lakers in the process. And Kareem's 77-78 Lakers were routed by a 47-35 Sonics team, with only one borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson), and that team lost to a 44-38 Bullets team in the Finals. BTW, guess who was playing alongside Kareem in that '78 season? A more experienced Wilkes, Norm Nixon, Lou Hudson, and an Adrian Dantley, who was averaging 26.5 ppg when LA acquired him. THEN, with that same basic roster, only with a year under their belts, they were again blown away, 4-1, by essentially the same Sonic's team, that went 52-30 en route to a title.

Granted, it was certainly not all of Kareem's fault. But, as gifted and dominant as he was, why couldn't he lead talented rosters to titles in years in which the champions were among the weakest ever?

[QUOTE=Odinn]:cheers: 1976-77 season speaks for itself already.[/QUOTE]


Really? What exactly does it speak for? Comparing his 71-72 season to 76-77, 34.8 ppg - 26.2 ppg, 16.6 rpg - 13.3 rpg, and 4.6 apg - 3.9 apg. Shooting percentages were pretty much the same. Looks to me like he was more dominant in 71-72 than in 76-77.

Kareem truly was a phenomenal player, but he was NEVER the dominating force that Wilt was. Not even close. Whether it was lack of motivation, or lack of stamina, or a combination of both, I don't know.