Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

Havlicek had crazy legs and crazy lungs. He would just start running about 5 minutes in to a game, and he'd stop running ........ at half time. Then after like 2 minutes in the 3rd ......... he was running. I mean he would run, like a marathon runner just never, ever stopped. He would literally run guys into the ground - great athletes like Julius Erving, Earl Monroe, Gail Goodrich - they just could not keep up with Big John. He outran them all and sent them to the bench out of gas. [I]Truth.[/I]

He played [I]the whole court[/I] more than any other player I can think of. He'd have insane plays out in the flats on the far side of mid-court.... a couple times a game. True greatness, that's all I can say about Havlicek. True greatness.

Clutch? This is one of the game thrillers that will thrill me my whole life.

[img]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/features/moment-1976-greatest-game/suns-celts-76.jpg[/img]

Right after that the Suns called a timeout they didn't have and took a technical foul but got 1 second on the clock......... right after that, some guy ran out of the stands and freaking tackled the freaking ref!! lol
What a game that was TRIPLE OT!!

Hondo was the Celtics' best player from 1968 until '74 and maybe '75. Of course keeping in mind he did suffer some serious injuries in through there.

He held that team together when one of the all-time-greatest-players-who-ever-lived Sammy Jones retired in '69... and then the double dose killer on top of that. Bill Russell quit without notice - left the Celtics high and dry without a coach AND without a center.

Red Auerbach had just used all his chips and all his maneuvers and tricky machinations getting JoJo White as a kind of a wishful dream of replacing Sam. But the Celtics organization was caught flat footed when their coach just walked off. Celtics were blown up just like the 98 Bulls.

Havlicek wasn't just glue, he WAS the Celtics. I saw somebody say Cowens was better than Hondo well I can't agree.
Dave was great Hondo was legendary

[QUOTE=KOBE143]Pippen

Best perimeter defender of all time.. One of the best all around player that ever play the game of basketball.. Absolutely no weakness at all..[/QUOTE]



Did you even watch Pippen play? Couldn't shoot that well, mentally weak, and not as good a on the ball defender as people say he was. He was the best perimeter team defender. But anyone who watched him defender good scorers on the perimeter would agree with me. He was great at disrupting pg's get their teams into their offenses. But scorers gave him problems.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]

Hondo was the Celtics' best player from 1968 until '74 and maybe '75. Of course keeping in mind he did suffer some serious injuries in through there.

[/QUOTE]

Russell was clearly still the Celtic's best player in 68' and 69', though Hondo was the better player in the finals.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Russell was clearly still the Celtic's best player in 68' and 69', though Hondo was the better player in the finals.[/QUOTE]
no. can't agree.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]no. can't agree.[/QUOTE]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't jive with the majority opinion at the time.

Totally forgot about this thread.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Russell was clearly still the Celtic's best player in 68' and 69', though Hondo was the better player in the finals.[/QUOTE]



I think 68 is arguable, but I think Hondo was definitely better in Russell's last season.

[B]Very Hard To Say. I Did Not Watch Hondo Play So I Can

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't jive with the majority opinion at the time.[/QUOTE]

I know what you mean about majority opinions. I can think of several presidents I haven't cared for... who were elected by majority opinion. but there's lots of examples in the NBA too:

* Yao Ming was selected as an All Star without even playing, like, any games.
* People think Wade won a ring without any help, the way Nowitzki did.
* People think Jordan won a ring without any help, the way DJ or Rick Barry did.

you know? We could do this all day!

* People think Kobe Bryant was never the best player in the NBA.
* People think Javale McGee is the most athletic tall guy of all time.
* People think Oscar Robertson was better than Magic Johnson.
* People think the referees never shave points even after a referee was incarcerated for shaving points..... and they apparently thought it was just a coincidence that after that there were enormous rules changes about speaking to referees so no hint of scandal would be allowed.
* People think Carmelo Anthony is a better offensive player than KB or Durant ever were.

[I]People who weren't even born yet and never saw a game from the '83 season... think Julius Erving was the best player on the Sixers ring team. Even never heard of "FO FO FO" [/I]

Now that one is interesting... possibly even worth a thread.

[B][I]Do you have to be the best player on your team, to be the leader of your team?[/I][/B]

Obviously I'm in the minority once again, when I answer my own question,
[B] 'nope. you don't.'[/B]

Hondo was one of the most versatile athletes ever.

[QUOTE=Pushxx]Hondo was one of the most versatile athletes ever.[/QUOTE]

How many guys do you know that got drafted by the NBA and the NFL BOTH?

Hondo was.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]
[B][I]Do you have to be the best player on your team, to be the leader of your team?[/I][/B]

Obviously I'm in the minority once again, when I answer my own question,
[B] 'nope. you don't.'[/B][/QUOTE]



Well, you're absolutely right.



BTW, David Robinson is the most athletic tall guy of all-time.

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]I think 68 is arguable, but I think Hondo was definitely better in Russell's last season.[/QUOTE]

It may be arguable now, as people focus way too much on offensive box score statistics, but it wasn't really arguable back then.

Even Havlicek himself would tell you that.

[QUOTE]"It's a damn shame you have to place so much of a load on one person. They keep saying this guy is the key, that guy is the key. There's only one key

[QUOTE=DatAsh]It may be arguable now, as people focus way too much on offensive box score statistics, but it wasn't really arguable back then.

Even Havlicek himself would tell you that.

[/QUOTE]


There's a level of reverence for Russell that will transcend play on the court. In 1968 I think you're probably right...but I think Russell was noticeably a lesser player and I don't think his defense was anywhere near what it once was...even what it was the year prior.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]I know what you mean about majority opinions. I can think of several presidents I haven't cared for... who were elected by majority opinion. but there's lots of examples in the NBA too:

* Yao Ming was selected as an All Star without even playing, like, any games.
[B]* People think Wade won a ring without any help, the way Nowitzki did.[/B]
[B]* People think Jordan won a ring without any help, the way DJ or Rick Barry did.[/B]

you know? We could do this all day!

[B]* People think Kobe Bryant was never the best player in the NBA.[/B]
[B]* People think Javale McGee is the most athletic tall guy of all time.[/B]
[B]* People think Oscar Robertson was better than Magic Johnson.[/B]
[B]* People think the referees never shave points even after a referee was incarcerated for shaving points..... and they apparently thought it was just a coincidence that after that there were enormous rules changes about speaking to referees so no hint of scandal would be allowed.[/B]
[B]* People think Carmelo Anthony is a better offensive player than KB or Durant ever were.[/B]

[I]People who weren't even born yet and never saw a game from the '83 season... think Julius Erving was the best player on the Sixers ring team. Even never heard of "FO FO FO" [/I]
[/QUOTE]

I agree with the majority opinion not always being right, but this was a very large majority opinion.

Also, the bolded definitely were not/ are not majority opinions, and all star voting has more to do with popularity than it does people picking the players they actually think are the best.

[QUOTE]

Now that one is interesting... possibly even worth a thread.

[B][I]Do you have to be the best player on your team, to be the leader of your team?[/I][/B]

Obviously I'm in the minority once again, when I answer my own question,
[B] 'nope. you don't.'[/B][/QUOTE]

Agreed

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]There's a level of reverence for Russell that will transcend play on the court. In 1968 I think you're probably right...but I think Russell was noticeably a lesser player and I don't think his defense was anywhere near what it once was...even what it was the year prior.[/QUOTE]

Based on what though? The stats, as well as the opinions of players and coaches at the time, strongly disagree with that. What evidence do you have that's forcing you to ignore all that and come to a different conclusion? The box score stats?

Part of that reverence comes from the older generation who actually saw him play - or played with or against him - and knew that his impact really did transcend his stats.

Also, if you doubt Russell's defensive impact in 1969, consider the fact that the Celtics' DRtg dropped 10 absolute points, 7.4 relative points, and they lost 18.5 defensive win shares when he left.

[CODE]

Year DRtg Place Diff From Mean Diff from 2nd DWS SRS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1969 88.4 1/14 -6.8 -2.8 40.6 +5.35
1970 98.5 7/16 +0.6 +2.3 22.1 -1.59
[/CODE]

Most of those quotes I posted about other players - including Hondo himself - and coaches recognizing Russell as the Celtic's best player were from 1969.

3 times led his team to the nba championship . Averaged 29-8-6 at his peak . And one of the greatest perimeter defender all time .