#apples2oranges

[QUOTE=Doranku]:roll: @ the thought that MJ/Shaq would be able to co-exist any better than Kobe/Shaq did.[/QUOTE]

Apparently Shaq that had problems with:
Penny
Kobe
Wade
Jerry Buss
Mitch Kupchak
Phil Jackson
Stan Van Gundy
Pat Riley


Was suddenly gonna back down to Jordan, the same one who said his dream team could beat Mike's dream team, that Shaq?

He's even tryna be an alpha on a freaking studio show, but he's gonna play the background for Mike?

as I said, wishful thinking.

Jordan with Shaq would be like Shaq with Kobe.

Like Kobe, Jordan would be the teams lead playmaker, defensive stopper, closer/go to guy in the clutch, 2nd scoring threat, But the offense would still primarily run through Shaq, especially against declined post-'95 center talent .. Plus we're talking about an 18-21 year old Jordan compared to a peak/prime Shaquille O'Neal.

[QUOTE=tpols]Your first part makes absolutely no sense. Way, way more dirt on Jordan not getting along with dudes than Kobe. I remember someone had a quote that was like 3 pages long of altercations for him.

And sure what Kobe said makes sense. Longtime lurker touched on it.. the perceptions are 180 because of their situations.

And hes also right in Kobe being wrong for responding since, in the end, it will only make him look bitter.. even if its completely true.

I respect that though. Fvck what people think, say what you believe is right.[/QUOTE]

You respect insecurity?

Well no one said Jordan was a saint. No one said Jordan and Shaq would be best friends. You can find 3 pages of that stuff if you refer to a book where finding dirt and controversy on Jordan was the whole damn objective of the author. And a lot of the stories they have isn't necessarily about players he absolutely didn't get along with i.e. punching Steve Kerr which is the type of shit that happens all the time between teammates.

What we do have is what the coach, who is more qualified then anyone and has no reason to be bias at least not towards Jordan, of both players has said about their personalities and their ability to adapt to his teammates' personalities.

And by the way, getting into confrontations does not mean you are less relate-able and likable then someone aloof who's more of a loner that stays to himself and doesn't socialize as much.

[QUOTE=tpols]Then I dont know what to tell you man.. You think MJ wouldve won like Bill Russel in the 60s when there were 8 teams in the league. Its just not realistic.

Jordan had GREAT teams for the bulk of his prime starting in the early 90s to the late 90s.. and he won 6.

But with slightly better teams in the 00s he wouldve won 10? Doesnt add up.[/QUOTE]

You just said he would win 4ish with Shaq. I say 5...not like 5 is out of reach.

Then how many does he win from 08 to present with the Lakers in place of Kobe?

I say at least 3...

That is 8.

:wtf:

[QUOTE=Doranku]If we're assuming that Jordan/Shaq would have the same exact path that Kobe/Shaq did, sure they might win from 99-04, but Jordan could very well end up with zero finals MVPs.

99 and 04 would be the only seasons that Jordan would have a shot at finals MVP. Shaq was far too dominant against the Pacers, Sixers, and Nets that they faced/would have faced from '00 to '03.

'04 is a big stretch too, because Shaq dominated the Pistons while they completely shut down every (yes, not just Kobe) perimeter player they faced.

So maybe Jordan gets one finals MVP in '99 against the Knicks. Meanwhile, Kobe would likely have won 3-4 rings in the 90's with Jordan's cast, winning finals MVP each time.

Ultimately, Shaq would have 4-5+ finals MVPs, Jordan 1-2, and Kobe 3-4. Kobe v. Jordan would be a legit argument (with more likely choosing Kobe as being better) and Shaq would be GOAT.

What exactly are we arguing here, again? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

How does Kobe get to 4 finals mvp's? Who is he beating. He's not beating mj, shaq, or duncan from 97 through 05...unless he joins them...which defeats the purpose of this hypothetical.

we saw him fail in 08. and then we've seen 09 to present.

so you have to assume he gets on title contending teams in both 06 and 07...and even then nothing is for sure.

kobe could easily have ended up with 2 titles, 2 finals mvp's, and 3 ppg higher averages and slightly worse efficiency.

why does Kobe automatically fall on championship teams? what if he plays with iverson like help before 08?

and I'm not sure Shaq monopolizes the finals mvp after 02....I'd think they win 5 and MJ wins 2 finals mvp's...then jordan goes on to win 3 more titles and 3 more finals mvps

that is 8 titles and 5 finals mvps....

the one thing you say that is true...is that shaq would be thought of as a better player historically. so true.

now that you can see that. you should apply that same logic to kobe. because the exact same thing is true. you just can't see it.

[QUOTE=tpols]Then I dont know what to tell you man.. You think MJ wouldve won like Bill Russel in the 60s when there were 8 teams in the league. Its just not realistic.

Jordan had GREAT teams for the bulk of his prime starting in the early 90s to the late 90s.. and he won 6.

But with slightly better teams in the 00s he wouldve won 10? Doesnt add up.[/QUOTE]

I'll add more.

I said between 8 and 10 titles.

So lets get this straight as you say...MJ won 6 as the clear cut best player on teams. We already saw that.

But now it's crazy to think he could win 8 to 10 playing with prime/peak Shaq for 8 years and then the best supporting cast in the league for another 2 to 3 years...and then more solid teams after?

You do realize Kobe won 5 titles....

You do realize how good those Lakeres teams were Kobe's first 3 years without him playing a big role. You do realize that MJ isn't getting punked like Kobe in the 08 finals or the 04 finals or the 03 Spurs series

Think about what you are saying. Year 7 MJ and Shaq losing to the 03 Spurs...it's the most laughable hypothetical ever. It just wouldn't happen.

[QUOTE=Doranku]If we're assuming that Jordan/Shaq would have the same exact path that Kobe/Shaq did, sure they might win from 99-04, but Jordan could very well end up with zero finals MVPs.

99 and 04 would be the only seasons that Jordan would have a shot at finals MVP. Shaq was far too dominant against the Pacers, Sixers, and Nets that they faced/would have faced from '00 to '03.

'04 is a big stretch too, because Shaq dominated the Pistons while they completely shut down every (yes, not just Kobe) perimeter player they faced.

So maybe Jordan gets one finals MVP in '99 against the Knicks. Meanwhile, Kobe would likely have won 3-4 rings in the 90's with Jordan's cast, winning finals MVP each time.

Ultimately, Shaq would have 4-5+ finals MVPs, Jordan 1-2, and Kobe 3-4. Kobe v. Jordan would be a legit argument (with more likely choosing Kobe as being better) and Shaq would be GOAT.

What exactly are we arguing here, again? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Pretty much how I see it stricly from a career stand point. Kobe approximately the same age that Jordan was when he was winning titles on the Bulls, (26+ years old in his prime, which means 2006 on Kobe) wins 3-4 rings with 3-4 Finals MVPs. While 20-25 year old Jordan (1984-1989) with peak/prime Shaq maybe wins more rings, but with Shaq being viewed as "them man".

This is why Kobe and his fans are the best. You literally never know what they are going to say next.

We are now hearing the following;

If Kobe didn't have to play with Shaq and MJ did...Kobe would be thought of as the better player.

It's the best. I can't take it...it's just so good.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]This is why Kobe and his fans are the best. You literally never know what they are going to say next.

We are now hearing the following;

If Kobe didn't have to play with Shaq and MJ did...Kobe would be thought of as the better player.

It's the best. I can't take it...it's just so good.[/QUOTE]

I don't see the problem. We all know Mike Bibby would've developed into the greatest PG ever if he played with Kareem+Worthy+etc. instead of Webber+Peja+etc. Same thing.

lol at people thinking Kobe would have won any ring with that 80/90 Bulls (some saying 4/5 titles :oldlol: talk about being a delusional fanboy).

Shaq played 8 years with that ultimate selfish-ballhog-chuker-sub 45% fg player... so i dnt see any reason he couldnt coexist with MJ, way more eficient/higher bb IQ.

not really kobe. this is more like comparing apples to apples

[QUOTE=tpols]

Jordan had GREAT teams for the bulk of his prime starting in the early 90s to the late 90s.. and he won 6.
[/QUOTE]

The stars aligned perfectly for Jordan in that era. The NBA declined greatly after 1988. The NBA expanded way too fast and competition at the top suffered, It was the perfect opportunity for a "GOAT" level player to step up and scoop up the championships in the post Magic/Bird era. The East was nearly as bad as it was in the early 00s...seriously, you could beat barely above .500 teams in the East (as Jordan did in '91) on your way to a championship.

Mike had his own stage because Magic had HIV, Bird had a broke back, and the Pistons and Sixers were just old and depleted. All the greats and legendary teams were aged out by the time Mike was ready to contend. Not his fault. But lets tell it like it is. Big reason why Jordan is widely vied as the greatest ever. He was the greatest player in his era by FAR since all the other legends who would have challenged his throne were all retired or old, nobody to be measured against him.

People remember 90s as better than they actually were, I should know, I grew up remembering 90s as the golden era...now though? I look back at the laughable perimeter talent and even worse competition at the top of the league (even the center talent declined greatly post-'95). Is it even a question that during the "second threepeat era" that Melo would be the best player in league from 96-'98 (in the absence of Jordan)?

[QUOTE=Ne 1]The stars aligned perfectly for Jordan in that era. The NBA declined greatly after 1988. It was the perfect opportunity for a "GOAT" level player to step up and scoop up the championships in the post Magic/Bird era. The East was nearly as bad as it was in the early 00s...seriously, you could beat barely above .500 teams in the East (as Jordan did in '91) on your way to a championship.

People remember 90s as better than they actually were, I should know, I grew up remembering 90s as the golden era...now though? I look back at the laughable perimeter talent and even worse comptetion at the top of the league (even the center talent declined greatly post-'95). [B]Is it even a question that during the "second threepeat era" that Melo would be the best player in league from 96-'98 (in the absence of Jordan)?[/B][/QUOTE]


huh? Shaq says hi? or u still talking about perimeter players?

[QUOTE=Ne 1] Is it even a question that during the "second threepeat era" that Melo would be the best player in league from 96-'98 (in the absence of Jordan)?[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: No it wouldn't be a question cause it be an absolute stupid question to ask, just like it would be now.

[QUOTE=rzp]huh? Shaq says hi? or u still talking about perimeter players?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Shaq was the best player (even though he won't be remembered as such) in the era but Melo on that Bulls team (winning championships and all while shooting <42% in the Finals...twice) would be remembered as the best in the league.

One thing you guys are forgetting in your scenario of Jordan winning 8-10 rings with Shaq is that Shaq has an ego size of a planet. There's a reason why Shaq's burned bridges every place he's played. Jordan has a massive ego as well eventually these two are going to clash just like Shaq and Kobe did. The difference is that Jordan wouldn't let it effect his on court play. But eventually I could see the team split up into Shaq guys and Jordan guys. Which brings us to another point the salary cap. Jordan's not going to take a paycut so it's either the Lakers end up paying Jordan and Shaq 20 million plus and surround them with d league players or the team is getting split up.

Anyways continue arguing that one poster's completely made up scenario is more believable than another poster's completely made up scenario :oldlol:

[IMG]http://gyazo.com/bfdeae9ffb118f6aa764a074647b89da.png[/IMG]

[URL=http://s68.photobucket.com/user/Fernacious_photos/media/Samwell.gif.html][IMG]http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i4/Fernacious_photos/Samwell.gif[/IMG][/URL]

Please guys. I'm reading this and you guys are mentioning Melo. He's not even close to be on the same breath as them.

[QUOTE=longtime lurker]One thing you guys are forgetting in your scenario of Jordan winning 8-10 rings with Shaq is that Shaq has an ego size of a planet. There's a reason why Shaq's burned bridges every place he's played. Jordan has a massive ego as well eventually these two are going to clash just like Shaq and Kobe did. The difference is that Jordan wouldn't let it effect his on court play. But eventually I could see the team split up into Shaq guys and Jordan guys. Which brings us to another point the salary cap. Jordan's not going to take a paycut so it's either the Lakers end up paying Jordan and Shaq 20 million plus and surround them with d league players or the team is getting split up.

Anyways continue arguing that one poster's completely made up scenario is more believable than another poster's completely made up scenario :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

This. Do you guys watch Shaq on TNT? He acts like a little kid constantly and he HAS to be the alpha male on the crew even though Chuck and Kenny have been there longer and are obviously better commentators. Jordan is not gonna let someone be the alpha male over him and multiply that over an 82 game season. peak/prime Shaq and 20-25 year old Jordan would obviously win rings, but just like Shaq and Kobe they would of obviously split by ring 3 or 4 (possibly earlier) and not this 10 ring crap Jordan stans/Kobe detractors are saying in this thread

[QUOTE=Ne 1]Is it even a question that during the "second threepeat era" that Melo would be the best player in league from 96-'98 (in the absence of Jordan)?[/QUOTE]
So you think Melo is better than Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Hill, Malone, and Barkley?

[IMG]http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/50smh.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Young X]So you think Melo is better than Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Hill, Malone, and Barkley?

[IMG]http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/50smh.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Payton, stockton, wilkins, ewing, drexler, kidd are all at least debatable. Melo wouldnt be close to being the best player in that era.

[QUOTE=Young X]So you think Melo is better than Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Hill, Malone, and Barkley?
[/QUOTE]

Hakeem was declining after '95, he got embarrassed in the Sonics series (even though, Seattle got away with illegal defense that would be legal nowadays). So was Robinson, Barkely was never the same after leaving Phoenix and actually started declining around '94. Shaq was the best player (even though he won't be remembered as such) in the era but Melo on that Bulls team (winning championships and all while shooting <42% in the finals...twice) would be remembered as the best in the league.

[QUOTE=Young X]So you think Melo is better than Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Hill, Malone, and Barkley?[/QUOTE]
Don't forget Penny and budding AI ... Melo wouldn't even be close to the best. Even with declining Barkley, Hakeem, and David Robinson. This dude spreads his hole for "Kobe's era"

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]- 85' MJ was already 21 - 22 years old....

Kobe at 21 years old was also winning titles....

again this about MJ coming straight into the league as a unknown rookie playing with Prime Shaq...

MJ's numbers take a huge hit and Shaq is easily taking the majority of the shots.



your whole post makes no sense when looking at the context of what Kobe was talking about.....

- even a 18 year old Jordan was no where near Kobe's abilty ( according to MJ himeself)....and no way 18 year old MJ with Shaq win any titles...

- it would have took MJ at least 3- 4 seasons to develop his game.....heck it took MJ 5 seasons to develop a reliable midrange game. ( something he could fall back on when teams took away his slashing game)[/QUOTE]
Kobe took more shots then Shaq during 2001 season.

[QUOTE=Ne 1]Hakeem was declining after '95, he got embarrassed in the Sonics series (even though, Seattle got away with illegal defense that would be legal nowadays). So was Robinson, Barkely was never the same after leaving Phoenix and actually started declining around '94. Shaq was the best player (even though he won't be remembered as such) in the era but Melo on that Bulls team (winning championships and all while shooting <42% in the finals...twice) would be remembered as the best in the league.[/QUOTE]
The 96-98 bulls isn't winning any championship with Marshmellow. Gtfo Will melody get out the first round even. Would Melo even be able to step his game up in 98 with a crack knuckle,Pippen injured for half the season and was never right that season even after he get back. Melody never even played in a creaking finals. Melody can't pass and is more of a iso player.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Kobe took more shots then Shaq during 2001 season.[/QUOTE]

and they went 16-1 in the playoffs. Looks pretty nice.

[QUOTE=Ne 1]Hakeem was declining after '95, he got embarrassed in the Sonics series (even though, Seattle got away with illegal defense that would be legal nowadays). So was Robinson, Barkely was never the same after leaving Phoenix and actually started declining around '94. Shaq was the best player (even though he won't be remembered as such) in the era [B]but Melo on that Bulls team (winning championships and all while shooting <42% in the finals...twice) would be remembered as the best in the league.[/B][/QUOTE]

I lol'd, pretty hard.

[QUOTE=Ne 1]The stars aligned perfectly for Jordan in that era. The NBA declined greatly after 1988. The NBA expanded way too fast and competition at the top suffered, It was the perfect opportunity for a "GOAT" level player to step up and scoop up the championships in the post Magic/Bird era. The East was nearly as bad as it was in the early 00s...seriously, you could beat barely above .500 teams in the East (as Jordan did in '91) on your way to a championship.

Mike had his own stage because Magic had HIV, Bird had a broke back, and the Pistons and Sixers were just old and depleted. All the greats and legendary teams were aged out by the time Mike was ready to contend. Not his fault. But lets tell it like it is. Big reason why Jordan is widely vied as the greatest ever. He was the greatest player in his era by FAR since all the other legends who would have challenged his throne were all retired or old, nobody to be measured against him.

[B]People remember 90s as better than they actually were, I should know, I grew up remembering 90s as the golden era...now though? I look back at the laughable perimeter talent and even worse competition at the top of the league (even the center talent declined greatly post-'95). Is it even a question that during the "second threepeat era" that Melo would be the best player in league from 96-'98[/B] (in the absence of Jordan)?[/QUOTE]


Dude, just stop it. You're in your early f@cking 20s, yet you expect someone to believe that you remember [I]anything[/I] about 90s basketball?

:oldlol:

And no clown, you don't just "step in, and scoop up" championships, no matter what conference you're playing in. You compete for them, just like every team in the League does. The fact that Jordan won 6 against the "superior west" also doesn't do the point you're trying to make any favors either.........

or whoever the hell it was that you copied and pasted this tripe from............over and over and over again.............

[IMG]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Jacks3]8-10 Championships? Really? :biggums:[/QUOTE]

It's really not all that ridiculous if you look at it objectively. Jordan spent 6 years with real championship caliber talent around him, and he won 6 championships on those 6 years. You think it's ridiculous to hypothesize that he'd win a couple more given the 7-8 more chances that Kobe had?

[QUOTE=Poochymama]It's really not all that ridiculous if you look at it objectively. Jordan spent 6 years with real championship caliber talent around him, and he won 6 championships on those 6 years. You think it's ridiculous to hypothesize that he'd win a couple more given the 7-8 more chances that Kobe had?[/QUOTE]

Here are my thoughts on the comparison. And since Kobe played more years, I'll give him an advantage where he starts in Jordan's position at ages where he was better, plus it makes it easier since Kobe's last year would've been 1998 with the Bulls so it better aligns. Jordan still starts in 97 though since the topic is about him being in the same career path and would have the apparent "burden" of playing with Shaq. I'm taking into account their injuries, off the court distractions, etc. Keep in mind, there careers overlap a bit in 97 and 98.

1982 - 1997 Kobe (No playoffs)
1983 - 1998 Kobe (No playoffs)
1984 - 1999 Kobe (No playoffs)
1985 - 2000 Kobe (No playoffs) (Hakeem-ROY)
1986 - 2001 Kobe (8th seed first round exit vs Celtics, scoring title)
1987 - 2002 Kobe (8th seed first round exit vs Celtics, scoring title)
1988 - 2003 Kobe (7th seed first round exit vs Pistons, scoring title) (Bird-MVP)
1989 - 2004 Kobe (No playoffs)
1990 - 2005 Kobe (6th seed first round exit vs. Celtics)
1991 - 2006 Kobe (1st seed Championship vs. Lakers, FMVP, MVP, scoring title)
1992 - 2007 Kobe (1st seed Championship vs. Blazers, MVP, scoring title)
1993 - 2008 Kobe (2nd seed ECF exit vs. Knicks) (Knicks over Suns in Finals)
1994 - 2009 Kobe (1st seed Championship vs. Rockets, FMVP)
1995 - 2010 Kobe (2nd seed ECSF exit vs. Knicks)
1996 - 2011 Kobe (1st seed ECF exit vs. Magic) (Magic over Sonics in Finals, Robinson-MVP)
1997 - 2012 Kobe, 1985 Jordan (2nd seed Lakers championship vs. 2nd seed Bulls) (Shaq-FMVP)
1998 - 2013 Kobe, 1986 Jordan (5th seed Bulls ECSF exit vs. Pacers, 2nd seed Lakers championship vs. Pacers, FMVP) (Malone-MVP)
1999 - 1987 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. Knicks) (Shaq-FMVP, Shaq-MVP)
2000 - 1988 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. Pacers) (Shaq-FMVP)
2001 - 1989 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. 76ers, FMVP, MVP)
2002 - 1990 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. Nets, scoring title) (Shaq-FMVP)
2003 - 1991 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. Nets, FMVP, MVP)
2004 - 1992 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. Pistons, FMVP, MVP, scoring title)
2005 - 1993 Jordan (6th seed WCSF exit vs. Spurs, MVP, scoring title)
2006 - 1994 Jordan (retired)
2007 - 1995 Jordan (No playoffs)
2008 - 1996 Jordan (1st seed Lakers Finals loss vs. Celtics, MVP, scoring title)
2009 - 1997 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. Magic, FMVP)
2010 - 1998 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. Celtics, FMVP)

I know it doesn't look very organized but I have:

Kobe - 3x champ, 4x Finalist, 2x MVP, 3x FMVP, 5x scoring champ
Jordan - 10x champ, 11x Finalist, 5x MVP, 6x FMVP, 4x scoring champ

Now I would agree that some are arguable, so I would give them the following ranges:

Kobe - 3x-5x champ, 3x-5x Finalist, 3x-5x FMVP, 2x-3x MVP, 3x-6x scoring champ
Jordan - 8x-11x champ, 9x-11x Finalist, 4x-8x FMVP, 3x-5x MVP, 2x-4x scoring champ.

I didn't look to deep into the FMVP for Jordan and Shaq, but I'm going to assume they just split their's. You can argue Kobe's legacy might look better then it currently is, but I think the gap between Jordan and Kobe is clearly perceived as wider.