Prime Dirk IMO. Durant should get in that level however.
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Prime Dirk IMO. Durant should get in that level however.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]Five of those teams beat Dallas at home with Dirk and these loses were on the road right after they lost their second best scorer along with Dirk.
Chauncey Billups was better than Kobe and Shaq? Cause Kobe and Shaq were massacred.
One series should never decide who is the better player. When Wade had a much better regular season and a vastly superior finals than Dirk had 2011, he wasn't considered the best player in the game - most people had Kobe ahead of him who had no imprint in the postseason. So no way should one dimensional Dirk be super special and get the nod here.
Dallas won on defense. Lebron and Wade usually score much more than they did - they usually score more than Dirk (Durant and Kobe too). Dirk can't get that credit. And YOU are a hardcore believer that defense and rebounding is a reason why teams win. You argue that like a crazed maniac here on the boards. You can't have it both ways. When Tyson left, I think the only starter gone, they didn't win a playoff game the next year. Not ONE. With Dirk producing like he did the year before.
And its very different if Dirk just scored waaaay more than he usually does but the main reason they won is that this eras highest scorers were basically trash when they played Dallas.
Interesting - you must value defense and rebounding - wait no you obviously don't. His team faired well in the first half of the season...
Sorry the entire history of sports counts all games. Not just me. Not just basketball, its in all sports. Stop trying to make up your own rules. Dirk plays mediocre defense which is half the game and you often argue that its why Chicago had the best record. Its a high value point.
Creativity is also a very big mark for offensive players in all fluid sports and Dirk is mediocre there as well. Lebron and Wade are way more creative, better passers, more resourceful, better passers, creators for others and better offensive players overall. They are much better defenders. Position wise they are the best rebounders at their position while Dirk is mediocre. There is no advantage Dirk has on them being that scoring is part of offense. You could say clutch shooting but Terry has that on them too.
And sorry if you take the 105 games played over the course of the year, line up their best games to worse games against Dirks they both have like a 80/25 type of advantage. If you include defense its jumps to 85% of all games where they play better than Dirk. In no sport would that type of disparity be given to the Dirk type of guy. Its ludicrous.
And Dirk plays with a handicap - he guards off his position way more than an average player. There are no other top 40 maybe top 50 players that did this.
KG won a title as the best player and played on more contending teams than Dirk ever did while just focusing on defense when KG was beyond his prime. You greatly underestimate defense, without Tyson Chandler Dirk wouldn't be in conversation of best PFs. But defense doesn't factor in for you.[/QUOTE]
Well...I have Wade as the best player in 06...actually. LOL
KG was on more contending teams? Oh...you mean when he joined two other first ballot hall of famers and only won 1 title? When he got his shit kicked by Pau Gasol in the 10 finals? That guy?
You can keep ignoring it all you want. First is that the playoffs matter more when comparing all time great players. It's just a fact. Second is that Dirk improved his team more than anyone you have mentioned in the 2011 regular season. Not only was his team garbage without him, but in games they were garbage when he went to the bench. As the offense fell off over 10 points and the defense fell by 6 points. What player have you mentioned made that kind of impact on his team? Nobody...
Stop under-rating Dirk's regular season impact! You can't value the regular season and then laugh off winning 57 despite the circumstances in the much tougher conference. Shit...the Mavs tied for the 4th best record in the league.
I do value defense. I just also value offense and overall impact. By you ranking Rose over Dirk...you clearly don't value either. Rose was a worse defender than Dirk in 11...and a worse offensive player as well. And he choked in the playoffs.
It's not just 1 series. Dirk was the best player in the playoffs. It's a fact. And when you are the best player in the playoffs...and you beat nearly all the guys you mentioned as well...I mean...it speaks volumes. Again...Dirk was the best player in the playoffs. And he beat LA, Kobe, Gasol, Durant, Westbrook, Lebron, Wade, and Bosh.
With many of those guys having more help.
Dirk just had an under-rated regular season. I've shown you why...yet you avoid it. If Dirk doesn't miss those 9 games. The Mavs win 60...
Yet you want to give Rose all this credit for playing worse defense...having more help...and playing in the lesser conference? And then playing much worse in the playoffs?
Like..seriously dude. Check your bias...nobody being remotely objective would look back at the entirety of 2011 and conclude Rose was a better player than Dirk. Nobody.
Please respond to the numbers I posted. You claimed Dirk didn't win any close games. I torched that assertion. You also claimed that Dirk didn't have the impact those other guys did...I torched that one as well.
All the stuff you say about Wade and Lebron is just false. That is the flaw in how you view the game. You are one of those retarded offense vs offense and defense vs defense guys. I've repeatedly shredded just how flawed that way of thinking is. You get stupid conclusions like KG better than Magic and Kobe...we've been over it. You simply don't give Dirk enough credit for his true impact on the game. What he does offensively overall combined with his much better defense and rebounding (especially in his prime) than you give him credit for makes one of the best impact players ever. See...he's way better than his stats show. It's why his impact in 11 is shown in those on/off stuff.
And I also find it funny coming from someone that rails on Dirk for his 07 series. If one series is just not that big of a deal...than I guess Dirk has a claim for best player in 07. Shit...he was the best regular season player...if one series and the playoffs don't matter much. Guess he takes the cake on that one...
ISH...where averaging 28/8/3 on 61% TS while having the most clutch playoff run of the era by far doesn't matter as much as meaningless regular season games...of which Dirk won at a rate as well as anyone with less help.
Seriously? Wade, Lebron, and Bosh only mustered up 58 wins in a weak ass conference. If they were as good as you say they are...how did Dirk lead his team to only 1 less win despite injuries and playing in a much harder conference? How did that happen?
I also just have to laugh at the "without Chandler" Dirk is nothing comment. Think about that for a second. That is what Dirk needs to win. A guy nobody in the league even wanted...and a 6th man one dimensional sub 20 ppg scorer. Yet all the other guys you mention in 11 need more. Durant couldn't win with Westbrook and Harden. What does that make Lebron? Worse than nothing? Dude ****ing needed Wade and Bosh and deep as **** teams to win. Kobe has needed more help than Dirk had in 11...although at least it's more comparable than what Lebron/Wade have needed...and what Durant is looking like he'll need.
Like seriously. You people that use Chandler against Dirk...what the **** are you thinking? Is that supposed to be a negative? Like...yea, Dirk's good, but he needed Tyson Chandler and Terry to win a title so it's not that impressive. That is seriously going through your retarded minds?
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
KG was on more contending teams? Oh...you mean when he joined two other first ballot hall of famers and only won 1 title? When he got his shit kicked by Pau Gasol in the 10 finals? That guy?
[/quote]
We can bring up bad playoff nonsense all day right? They won on defense and neither of the two were good defenders and past prime KG lead the team in scoring in the playoffs.
[quote]
You can keep ignoring it all you want. First is that the playoffs matter more when comparing all time great players. It's just a fact. Second is that Dirk improved his team more than anyone you have mentioned in the 2011 regular season. Not only was his team garbage without him, but in games they were garbage when he went to the bench. As the offense fell off over 10 points and the defense fell by 6 points. What player have you mentioned made that kind of impact on his team? Nobody... [/quote]
They won two finals games with Dirk playing bad for most of the game.
[quote]
I do value defense. I just also value offense and overall impact. By you ranking Rose over Dirk...you clearly don't value either. Rose was a worse defender than Dirk in 11...and a worse offensive player as well. And he choked in the playoffs.[/quote]
Rose greatly affected ever elite PG over the course of the year and guarded DWade very well in the playoffs. Dirk plays with a handicapp. You are just being stupid now.
[quote]
All the stuff you say about Wade and Lebron is just false. That is the flaw in how you view the game. You are one of those retarded offense vs offense and defense vs defense guys. I've repeatedly shredded just how flawed that way of thinking is. You get stupid conclusions like KG better than Magic and Kobe...we've been over it. [/quote]
:lol I love it when I get you flustered. You begin lying, saying off the wall stuff and say you destroyed stuff. You destroyed your composure and that's been about it.
Is this lie on me day here. LOL, I know I never said that about Magic because I never have Magic ranked below three all time.
[quote]
And I also find it funny coming from someone that rails on Dirk for his 07 series. If one series is just not that big of a deal...than I guess Dirk has a claim for best player in 07. Shit...he was the best regular season player...if one series and the playoffs don't matter much. Guess he takes the cake on that one... [/quote]
I thought Nash had his best year that year and deserved it that year moreso than the other two years he won. Offensively he was better than Dirk as was Kobe too. Duncan was the best all around player with Lebron behind him. They were all much better in the playoffs. That year was tigher than usual but if Dirk played good defense I would have given him the regular season.
[quote]
ISH...where averaging 28/8/3 on 61% TS while having the most clutch playoff run of the era by far doesn't matter as much as meaningless regular season games...of which Dirk won at a rate as well as anyone with less help.
Seriously? Wade, Lebron, and Bosh only mustered up 58 wins in a weak ass conference. If they were as good as you say they are...how did Dirk lead his team to only 1 less win despite injuries and playing in a much harder conference? How did that happen?[/QUOTE]
They were a well constructed team that could win two games in the finals with him playing bad most of the game.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]You greatly underestimate defense, without Tyson Chandler Dirk wouldn't be in conversation of best PFs.[/QUOTE]
What is this implying ?
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]What is this implying ?[/QUOTE]
Without Tyson's defense they didn't win a playoff game the next year. If he wasn't around in 2011 no way does Dirk get lumped in with Barkley, Malone, McHale and Garnett. Dirk wasn't in that conversation before.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]Without Tyson's defense they didn't win a playoff game the next year. If he wasn't around in 2011 no way does Dirk get lumped in with Barkley, Malone, McHale and Garnett. Dirk wasn't in that conversation before.[/QUOTE]
They didn't win a playoff game because the roster was completely different.
When you state one of the best PF's, I assume it's the Top 10. And Nowitzki had already enough on his resume to be considered one of the Top 50 players of all-time, which would put him in the Top 10 of PF's already. So really, Tyson Chandler had very little (if not nothing) to do with Nowtizki being one of the best PF's. Infact, he outproduced him.
And I can't see what case McHale has over Nowitzki outside of peak play. His individual achievements were already better before the ring. I don't really see how he can be above him all-time before that time. Infact, what puts him over Bob Pettit and Elvin Hayes outside of his rings ?
[QUOTE=Pointguard]We can bring up bad playoff nonsense all day right? They won on defense and neither of the two were good defenders and past prime KG lead the team in scoring in the playoffs.
They won two finals games with Dirk playing bad for most of the game.
Rose greatly affected ever elite PG over the course of the year and guarded DWade very well in the playoffs. Dirk plays with a handicapp. You are just being stupid now.
:lol I love it when I get you flustered. You begin lying, saying off the wall stuff and say you destroyed stuff. You destroyed your composure and that's been about it.
Is this lie on me day here. LOL, I know I never said that about Magic because I never have Magic ranked below three all time.
I thought Nash had his best year that year and deserved it that year moreso than the other two years he won. Offensively he was better than Dirk as was Kobe too. Duncan was the best all around player with Lebron behind him. They were all much better in the playoffs. That year was tigher than usual but if Dirk played good defense I would have given him the regular season.
They were a well constructed team that could win two games in the finals with him playing bad most of the game.[/QUOTE]
You can't follow as usual. I'm saying your retarded way of thinking leads to terrible conclusions. I didn't say you specifically said KG was better than Magic. Although I don't know how you stay consistent and not say that if individual defense is this important.
Rose made no impact on defense. His team absurdly better without him. Just a fact. It was the bench play defensively that made the Bulls such a great team....great regular season team in a shit conference of course.
Look. It all comes down to you not valuing the playoffs much. Which is fine. Just don't pretend like you do.
Because in the regular season...Dirk was at least a top 3 impact guy on his team. Only Rose and Howard would have a case for better...and really only Howard.
Then Dirk was just factually the best player in the playoffs. If that doesn't add up to best player overall in 11...then so that is your take...fine.
Just don't come on here and act like you don't just prop up guys for regular season shit when they get rocked in the playoffs.
You ranked Kobe and Rose over Dirk in 11...nothing else needs to be said. You are a hater...
[QUOTE=Pointguard]Without Tyson's defense they didn't win a playoff game the next year. If he wasn't around in 2011 no way does Dirk get lumped in with Barkley, Malone, McHale and Garnett. Dirk wasn't in that conversation before.[/QUOTE]
Actually he was by anyone that watched them all play. I think even Kblaze had Dirk over Malone years ago...and he's not a big Dirk fan at all.
Keep thinking that though.
Also, the same could be said for any of them. Take Stockton away from Malone. KG doesn't go to Boston. Barkley never gets those Suns teams...etc.
They were all made. The difference? Tyson Chandler is easily the worst 2nd best guy out of any guys the above players played with.
I mean...are you listening to yourself right now? You are knocking Dirk for needing Chandler to win. Malone never won with Stockton and Sloan...and really good teams. Barkley never won with a loaded Suns team. KG needed an absurdly stacked team to win...
But yea...Dirk needing Chandler is a knock...GTFO
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You can't follow as usual. I'm saying your retarded way of thinking leads to terrible conclusions.
Rose made no impact on defense. His team absurdly better without him. Just a fact. It was the bench play defensively that made the Bulls such a great team....great regular season team in a shit conference of course.
Look. It all comes down to you not valuing the playoffs much. Which is fine. Just don't pretend like you do.
Because in the regular season...Dirk was at least a top 3 impact guy on his team. Only Rose and Howard would have a case for better...and really only Howard.
Then Dirk was just factually the best player in the playoffs. If that doesn't add up to best player overall in 11...then so that is your take...fine.
Just don't come on here and act like you don't just prop up guys for regular season shit when they get rocked in the playoffs.
You ranked Kobe and Rose over Dirk in 11...nothing else needs to be said. You are a hater...[/QUOTE]
Chalk it up to the dumb mentality of sports fans. Every current, OK player is an all time great...
But...
Every all time great of the past is an untouchable god who no current player could ever touch.
If Dirk had the same career but 10 years earlier, it would be blasphemous to compare Durant to him. Since they play at the same time, fcuk it. Durant is entering his prime and Dirk is past his. Meh. Let's pretend Durant is better only because he's better right now.
[QUOTE=NumberSix]Chalk it up to the dumb mentality of sports fans. Every current, OK player is an all time great...
But...
Every all time great of the past is an untouchable god who no current player could ever touch.[/QUOTE]
Could you imagine if Malone and Barkley played out their entire careers in this era and never won? With Malone playing his entire career with Jason Kidd and Barkley playing on at least a few loaded teams?
These morons would be saying;
Malone/Barkley can't touch McHale...etc.
What gets me the most...is that people think it's a knock on Dirk that he needed Chandler to win. Chandler was nothing before 11. No team in the league even wanted him. And it wasn't his contract because it was expiring...the league concluded he was a bum. A cast off player nobody wanted...and somehow Dirk needing a guy that can't average a double double to win is a knock on him?
Now, don't get me wrong, I actually like Chandler and thought he was great for us, but certainly nowhere near as good as most 2nd best guys on title winning teams.
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]They didn't win a playoff game because the roster was completely different. [/quote]
Tyson Chandler was the only starter missing. That definitely not a completely different roster. Starters are considered the core.
[quote]
When you state one of the best PF's, I assume it's the Top 10. And Nowitzki had already enough on his resume to be considered one of the Top 50 players of all-time, which would put him in the Top 10 of PF's already. So really, Tyson Chandler had very little (if not nothing) to do with Nowtizki being one of the best PF's. Infact, he outproduced him. [/quote]
I spelled it out for you. I said the names of the PFs. Why are you talking about the top ten?
Dirk was not mentioned with the players I NAMED before 2011.
[quote]
And I can't see what case McHale has over Nowitzki outside of peak play. His individual achievements were already better before the ring. I don't really see how he can be above him all-time before that time. Infact, what puts him over Bob Pettit and Elvin Hayes outside of his rings ?[/QUOTE]
Best to handle this question with players seen before we go back with other guys. McHale was a premier post up player, great defender and winner. So he gets his respect - he gets a nod here because Barkley - the most versatile scorer at the position said he was one of the best. Pettite and Hayes are a separate conversation because of other factors involved in assessing them. To keep it simple KG, Malone and Barkley were a separate category. Dirk joined them after 2011.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Could you imagine if Malone and Barkley played out their entire careers in this era and never won? With Malone playing his entire career with Jason Kidd and Barkley playing on at least a few loaded teams?
These morons would be saying;
Malone/Barkley can't touch McHale...etc.
What gets me the most...is that people think it's a knock on Dirk that he needed Chandler to win. Chandler was nothing before 11. No team in the league even wanted him. And it wasn't his contract because it was expiring...the league concluded he was a bum. A cast off player nobody wanted...and somehow Dirk needing a guy that can't average a double double to win is a knock on him?
Now, don't get me wrong, I actually like Chandler and thought he was great for us, but certainly nowhere near as good as most 2nd best guys on title winning teams.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. Imagine Dirk actually needing a what, top 30 current player? That's just unfair stacking. Lol. The guy is not even as good as Nikola Pekovic.
The same idiot you're arguing with probably thinks Rose was "carrying" the Bulls even though Noah is unquestionably better than Chandler.
[QUOTE=NumberSix]Yeah. Imagine Dirk actually needing a what, top 30 current player? That's just unfair stacking. Lol. The guy is not even as good as Nikola Pekovic.
The same idiot you're arguing with probably thinks Rose was "carrying" the Bulls even though Noah is unquestionably better than Chandler.[/QUOTE]
He doesn't get it. Somehow guys like Deng and Noah aren't good, but Chandler and Terry (two clearly worse players)...made it unfair that Dirk won.
I thought I had heard it all until the the combo of Chandler/Terry is leading to;
Dirk needed too much help to win.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]He doesn't get it. Somehow guys like Deng and Noah aren't good, but Chandler and Terry (two clearly worse players)...made it unfair that Dirk won.
I thought I had heard it all until the the combo of Chandler/Terry is leading to;
Dirk needed too much help to win.[/QUOTE]
Hes just fishing for excuses to try and back up his arguement. The notion that role players like terry and chandler are even comparable to some of the recent championship teams players (discounting the FMVP) is insane, i mean think:
Wade/Bosh
Wade/Bosh
Gasol
Gasol
Garnett/Allen
Duncan/Ginobili
Now tell me that Jason Terry and Chandler are on these players levels
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]He doesn't get it. Somehow guys like Deng and Noah aren't good, but Chandler and Terry (two clearly worse players)...made it unfair that Dirk won.
[B]I thought I had heard it all until the the combo of Chandler/Terry is leading to[/B];
Dirk needed too much help to win.[/QUOTE]
Is Dirk having the combo of Chandler/Terry any better than what Kevin Love has with Pekovic/Rubio?
I'd STRONGLY argue that Pekovic/Rubio is better. Kevin Martin and Corey Brewer are about as good as over-the-hill Kidd and Peja. JJ Barea and Jos
[QUOTE=NumberSix]Is Dirk having the combo of Chandler/Terry any better than what Kevin Love has with Pekovic/Rubio?
[B]I'd STRONGLY argue that Pekovic/Rubio is better.[/B] Kevin Martin and Corey Brewer are about as good as over-the-hill Kidd and Peja. JJ Barea and Jos
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Actually he was by anyone that watched them all play. I think even Kblaze had Dirk over Malone years ago...and he's not a big Dirk fan at all.
Keep thinking that though.
Also, the same could be said for any of them. Take Stockton away from Malone. KG doesn't go to Boston. Barkley never gets those Suns teams...etc.
They were all made. The difference? Tyson Chandler is easily the worst 2nd best guy out of any guys the above players played with.
I mean...are you listening to yourself right now? You are knocking Dirk for needing Chandler to win. Malone never won with Stockton and Sloan...and really good teams. Barkley never won with a loaded Suns team. KG needed an absurdly stacked team to win...
But yea...Dirk needing Chandler is a knock...GTFO[/QUOTE]
It wasn't a knock. It was an allusion to the teams defensive makeup. If you don't understand context you can't provide a counter argument. It was an defensive team and that's why they won. You advance this argument when you bring up Chicago ALL the time. Durant/Kobe/Wade/Westbrook and Lebron all play far below their standards and level of play. Dirk had nothing to do with that. Kobe, Lebron and Wade usually out produce Dirk. And all have several playoffs where they had superior outputs to Dirk's output in this playoff run. Was Chauncey Billups considered better than Kobe and Shaq? Should he called a better player than Kobe because he looked way better in that series. Heck no. Without Ben Wallace we see that Billups would have been helpless.
Kidd was the second best player to me on that team and Tyson isn't a clear third either but he had it so that Kidd and Marion had the best defensive stands ever in a playoff run. Better than Hakeems, better than Mutombo's, and better than Ben Wallace's run. Dirk can't claim that.
Dmavs, the Bulls defense didn't come close to stopping Lebron like that but you claim they win on defense. You can't have it both ways. The Bulls stopped Wade in the fourth quarter, only when they put Rose on him.
[QUOTE=NumberSix]Is Dirk having the combo of Chandler/Terry any better than what Kevin Love has with Pekovic/Rubio?
I'd STRONGLY argue that Pekovic/Rubio is better. Kevin Martin and Corey Brewer are about as good as over-the-hill Kidd and Peja. JJ Barea and Jos
Chicago had the #1 ranked defense (they're routinely in the top 3) and Rose was held in check against Miami. Terrible argument.
[QUOTE=Black and White]Hes just fishing for excuses to try and back up his arguement. The notion that role players like terry and chandler are even comparable to some of the recent championship teams players (discounting the FMVP) is insane, i mean think:
Wade/Bosh
Wade/Bosh
Gasol
Gasol
Garnett/Allen
Duncan/Ginobili
Now tell me that Jason Terry and Chandler are on these players levels[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=NumberSix]Yeah. Imagine Dirk actually needing a what, top 30 current player? That's just unfair stacking. Lol. The guy is not even as good as Nikola Pekovic.
The same idiot you're arguing with probably thinks Rose was "carrying" the Bulls even though Noah is unquestionably better than Chandler.[/QUOTE]
:lol You are hopeless stupid clown, on a good day. Noah was hurt and was way off his game, D Rose's last healthy year and wasn't performing well the whole year. He got benched twice in ECF in the fourth quarter that year.
Chandler won DPOY the next year and was a best bigman defender that year in the playoffs for Dallas. The current Knicks would have a better record if he played and Mello missed the games instead. Chandler brings a ton of intangibles. But if you don't know, you don't know. Dirk had a ton of great things to say about his character and influence.
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Chicago had the #1 ranked defense (they're routinely in the top 3) and Rose was held in check against Miami. Terrible argument.[/QUOTE]
Huh???
[QUOTE=Pointguard]:lol You are hopeless stupid clown, on a good day. Noah was hurt and was way off his game, D Rose's last healthy year and wasn't performing well the whole year. He got benched twice in ECF in the fourth quarter that year.
Chandler won DPOY the next year and was a best bigman defender that year in the playoffs for Dallas. The current Knicks would have a better record if he played and Mello missed the games instead. Chandler brings a ton of intangibles. But if you don't know, you don't know. Dirk had a ton of great things to say about his character and influence.[/QUOTE]
I am not denying that he was essential to the title run for Dirk, but im saying that the notion that you think Dirk had too much help is insane, look at the list i put in front of you, did he have any players on his team of that quality??
[QUOTE=Pointguard]It wasn't a knock. It was an allusion to the teams defensive makeup. If you don't understand context you can't provide a counter argument. It was an defensive team and that's why they won. You advance this argument when you bring up Chicago ALL the time. Durant/Kobe/Wade/Westbrook and Lebron all play far below their standards and level of play. Dirk had nothing to do with that. Kobe, Lebron and Wade usually out produce Dirk. And all have several playoffs where they had superior outputs to Dirk's output in this playoff run. Was Chauncey Billups considered better than Kobe and Shaq? Should he called a better player than Kobe because he looked way better in that series. Heck no. Without Ben Wallace we see that Billups would have been helpless.
Kidd was the second best player to me on that team and Tyson isn't a clear third either but he had it so that Kidd and Marion had the best defensive stands ever in a playoff run. Better than Hakeems, better than Mutombo's, and better than Ben Wallace's run. Dirk can't claim that.
Dmavs, the Bulls defense didn't come close to stopping Lebron like that but you claim they win on defense. You can't have it both ways. The Bulls stopped Wade in the fourth quarter, only when they put Rose on him.[/QUOTE]
We won because we played good defense and happened to have Dirk go nuts in close games. If you talk about which is more valuable...it was Dirk. And you continue to ignore what Dirk did to the defense...which was make it better by 3.6 points when he was on the floor.
What good is that defense without a guy giving you 28/8/3 on 61% TS and coming through in the clutch? You do realize that 16 of the Mavs 21 playoff games went into crunch time...right? We didn't blow anyone out consistently. Shit, the Lakers were ahead in 2 of the first 3 games with like 9 minutes left.
Context? How about you stop ignoring what Dirk did and what he did factually to the defense.
Like...is it just nothing to you that the Mavs fell apart without Dirk in the playoffs? Getting 13.2 points worse on offense in addition to slipping on defense?
The Mavs had something around a 106 defensive rating in the playoffs. That is good, but hardly this all time great defense or something...it was worse than the 09 Lakers defense for example.
But the offense...that was special. When Dirk was in the game the offense had a 115 rating. That is great
[QUOTE=Pointguard]:lol You are hopeless stupid clown, on a good day. Noah was hurt and was way off his game, D Rose's last healthy year and wasn't performing well the whole year. He got benched twice in ECF in the fourth quarter that year.
Chandler won DPOY the next year and was a best bigman defender that year in the playoffs for Dallas. The current Knicks would have a better record if he played and Mello missed the games instead. Chandler brings a ton of intangibles. But if you don't know, you don't know. Dirk had a ton of great things to say about his character and influence.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, he's a good player. You seem to think that I'm arguing that he's an awful player. No, he's good. Just good. By no means some kind of star player that turned the Mavs into some kind of super team.
Case in point, nobody in the world picked Dallas to win the title in 2011. If they were so fcuking stacked, why was EVERYBODY picking them to LOSE in the first round to Portland?
[QUOTE=Black and White]I am not denying that he was essential to the title run for Dirk, but im saying that the notion that you think Dirk had too much help is insane, look at the list i put in front of you, did he have any players on his team of that quality??[/QUOTE]
Hey I didn't mean that post for you. Sorry about that.
While the second best player wasn't very distinct they had a lot of things every champion or runner up would wish for:
1. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at guard ever - greatly reducing roles of Kobe/Westbrook and Wade.
2. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at SF ever - greatly reducing roles of Lebron and Durant.
3. They had great 3point shooting for most of the playoffs (Kidd and Terry
4. Terry was as clutch as any number 2 player in recent memory and scored 20ppg in their wins and was very efficient in the final three games. To me it was better than most number two's in the last 10 years.
5. Their main player played bad in one game, and played bad in three quarters in another win, yet the team pulled out wins.
6. Dallas played their game (primarily Kidd)
7. Kidd, primarily controlled tempo perfectly and didn't turn the ball over.
8. Teams did not penetrate on them due to Chandler
9. Teams did not run on them (primarily Kidd)
Dirk would be at the top but it was a very much a great team effort.
Both SA and OKC beat Miami if these qualities, minus Dirk, existed.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]Hey I didn't mean that post for you. Sorry about that.
While the second best player wasn't very distinct they had a lot of things every champion or runner up would wish for:
1. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at guard ever - greatly reducing roles of Kobe/Westbrook and Wade.
2. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at SF ever - greatly reducing roles of Lebron and Durant.
3. They had great 3point shooting for most of the playoffs (Kidd and Terry
4. Terry was as clutch as any number 2 player in recent memory and scored 20ppg in their wins and was very efficient in the final three games. To me it was better than most number two's in the last 10 years.
5. Their main player played bad in one game, and played bad in three quarters in another win, yet the team pulled out wins.
6. Dallas played their game (primarily Kidd)
7. Kidd, primarily controlled tempo perfectly and didn't turn the ball over.
8. Teams did not penetrate on them due to Chandler
9. Teams did not run on them (primarily Kidd)
Dirk would be at the top but it was a very much a great team effort.
Both SA and OKC beat Miami if these qualities, minus Dirk, existed.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you that team ball will take you to more championships than a team with a superstar and some role players, all the players stepped up in that series and played their part, but Dirk was the one that lead from the front, it was his work ethic and play level that forced the team to elevate theirs to match it and they did.
[QUOTE=NumberSix]Yeah, he's a good player. You seem to think that I'm arguing that he's an awful player. No, he's good. Just good. By no means some kind of star player that turned the Mavs into some kind of super team.
[/quote]
They weren't a super team before or after him. That's for sure.
[quote]
Case in point, nobody in the world picked Dallas to win the title in 2011. If they were so fcuking stacked, why was EVERYBODY picking them to LOSE in the first round to Portland?[/QUOTE]
I have post here saying that Tyson was much better than they were giving him credit in Feb. of 2011. People might have expected Portland to win because they really thought Dirk would flop, he had somewhat of a different reputation before 2011.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]They weren't a super team before or after him. That's for sure.
I have post here saying that Tyson was much better than they were giving him credit in Feb. of 2011. People might have expected Portland to win because they really thought Dirk would flop,[B] he had somewhat of a different reputation before 2011[/B].[/QUOTE]
Before the chip alot of people still considered Dirk one of the best PFs of all time.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]They weren't a super team before or after him. That's for sure.
I have post here saying that Tyson was much better than they were giving him credit in Feb. of 2011. People might have expected Portland to win because they really thought Dirk would flop, he had somewhat of a different reputation before 2011.[/QUOTE]
So what point is it exactly that you're trying to make. That Dirk isn't that good? Or, that Durant is better than Dirk ever was.
Don't dance around. Just a straight answer.
IMO, prime Dirk is clearly better than anything we have yet seen from Durant.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]We won because we played good defense and happened to have Dirk go nuts in close games. If you talk about which is more valuable...it was Dirk. And you continue to ignore what Dirk did to the defense...which was make it better by 3.6 points when he was on the floor.
[/quote]
Defense and offense always go together. If Lebron, Wade, Westbrook, Durant have big games they lose. Its never one or the other. Dirk was mediocre defender his whole life, it didn't magically get better at 32. Stats sometimes lie.
[quote]
What good is that defense without a guy giving you 28/8/3 on 61% TS and coming through in the clutch? You do realize that 16 of the Mavs 21 playoff games went into crunch time...right? We didn't blow anyone out consistently. Shit, the Lakers were ahead in 2 of the first 3 games with like 9 minutes left. [/quote]
The closer the games the more important defense is. Its basic knowledge in the playoffs. But Dirk was lights out.
[quote]
Context? How about you stop ignoring what Dirk did and what he did factually to the defense.[/quote]
Dirk wasn't stopping anybody who wasn't stopping themselves.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]Hey I didn't mean that post for you. Sorry about that.
While the second best player wasn't very distinct they had a lot of things every champion or runner up would wish for:
1. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at guard ever - greatly reducing roles of Kobe/Westbrook and Wade.
2. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at SF ever - greatly reducing roles of Lebron and Durant.
3. They had great 3point shooting for most of the playoffs (Kidd and Terry
4. Terry was as clutch as any number 2 player in recent memory and scored 20ppg in their wins and was very efficient in the final three games. To me it was better than most number two's in the last 10 years.
5. Their main player played bad in one game, and played bad in three quarters in another win, yet the team pulled out wins.
6. Dallas played their game (primarily Kidd)
7. Kidd, primarily controlled tempo perfectly and didn't turn the ball over.
8. Teams did not penetrate on them due to Chandler
9. Teams did not run on them (primarily Kidd)
Dirk would be at the top but it was a very much a great team effort.
Both SA and OKC beat Miami if these qualities, minus Dirk, existed.[/QUOTE]
This is so Meh...
The production of the Mavs role players was at best average for a title winning team on both ends.
Shit...the 09 Lakers played better defense and had a 2nd option Gasol that destroys the value of Chandler and Terry. And had a guy like Ariza going nuts...etc.
The Celtics (KG stan moron) had a far more stacked team in 08 than the 11 Mavs...they just played much worse competition en route to that gift wrapped title for a loaded team playing in a shit conference.
I could do this for just about every year other than Duncan in 03.
[QUOTE=NumberSix]So what point is it exactly that you're trying to make. That Dirk isn't that good? Or, that Durant is better than Dirk ever was.
Don't dance around. Just a straight answer.
IMO, prime Dirk is clearly better than anything we have yet seen from Durant.[/QUOTE]
I don't think its outrageous or very wrong to think as you do. I like all around players and already said I like Durant. I think Durant has been a top tier scorer for three years and I don't believe Dirk was there. I think Durant's very clutch too. I think he can hit from the same spots on the floor and already is as accurate of shooter as Dirk. And I think he's more skilled because he can dribble. I also think he's quicker.
But I won't lose it because you think otherwise.
[QUOTE=NumberSix]T-Mac had more of a man's game than Durant though. Kobe DEFINITELY had more of a man's game than Durant.
Maybe you can say it doesn't matter, but to me it does matter that he is so frail and officiated with marshmallow padded kid-gloves.
IMO, its a fair criticism. I get sick of seeing him trying to handle the ball while fumbling around like a newborn giraffe and hearing the refs whistle to send him to the free throw line for dribbling the ball off of his own foot.[/QUOTE]
Last five games: 31.4 PPG and 7.0 FTA/game. The freebies to the line have slowly started to regress to the mean, yet he's still scoring at a high clip.
I mean your argument/belief might be valid if Durant hasn't proved in both the regular season and playoffs he can score at a high volume on good efficiency. The year they made the Finals, Durant averaged 29 PPG on 52/37/86 shooting and 63% TS...on 7.7 FTA/game.
i will just go with the context .. i laughed hard of what ive read on some of the pages... I would choose prime dirk ... it is scary though what prime durant can do ...
but if am building a team i would go with durant .
its just not fair to compare prime vs 80% prime of current player
specially when they say your so called prime is when you won the ring. rings are so valuable to some that the supporting casts gets to little credit ...
its funny that people say westbrook is a superstar when 2 years ago his finals performance was not even better than barea.. :facepalm
westbrook maybe showing he is back and maybe better now but lets not get outta hand and say its his team.. without westbrook that team is still playoff bound
without durant that team is lottery bound...
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]This is so Meh...
The production of the Mavs role players was at best average for a title winning team on both ends.
Shit...the 09 Lakers played better defense and had a 2nd option Gasol that destroys the value of Chandler and Terry. And had a guy like Ariza going nuts...etc.
The Celtics (KG stan moron) had a far more stacked team in 08 than the 11 Mavs...they just played much worse competition en route to that gift wrapped title for a loaded team playing in a shit conference.
I could do this for just about every year other than Duncan in 03.[/QUOTE]
:lol you just aren't bright enough to understand that it was a team doing things in unison. Gasol has never had a defensive stand near that of Chandler and will never win DPOY. Then you compared him to Terry??? Terry was the most proficient/productive scorer in the majority of the team's finals wins. Really now?
The Celtics were one of the best defensive teams ever, clown. And guess why? And defense is hard work, nothing giftwrapped. Giftwrapped is when you can't win a game the next year :D and all of a sudden the players that usually outscore Dirk start doing it again.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]:lol you just aren't bright enough to understand that it was a team doing things in unison. Gasol has never had a defensive stand near that of Chandler and will never win DPOY. Then you compared him to Terry??? Terry was the most proficient/productive scorer in the majority of the team's finals wins. Really now?
The Celtics were one of the best defensive teams ever, clown. And guess why? And defense is hard work, nothing giftwrapped. Giftwrapped is when you can't win a game the next year :D and all of a sudden the players that usually outscore Dirk start doing it again.[/QUOTE]
Wait...hold on...did you just claim that Terry was better than Gasol?
Celtics one of the best teams ever? Dude...they needed 7 to beat the Hawks and Cavs...rofl.
KG needed way more help than Dirk to win...and then only won once...while getting his shit kicked by Pau Gasol in 2010.
The Mavs role players in 11 worth worse than the average title winning team. Like...you have no idea what you are ****ing talking about.
The ****ing 2009 Lakers played better defense, quite considerably, than the 11 Mavs in the playoffs.
The defense of the 11 Mavs is getting absurdly over-rated. We had like a 106 defensive rating...LOL
The Bulls played great defense...not the Mavs. The mavs were like maybe the 10th best defense in the league? Somewhere around there...and didn't get any better in the playoffs...
Oh...and you do realize that Dirk made deep playoff runs in 03 and 06 without Chandler...and with shit centers...right?
But again...I'd never thought I'd see the day in which Chandler/Terry is too much help...I've now seen it all...until morons like you say something else
Oh...and stats lie? No...they actually don't. They are facts. You can make of them what you will...but it's just a fact that Dirk improved his teams defense in both the regular season and playoffs when he was on the floor. You call him a pathetic defender...the truth is that Dirk is a fine defender. He's just not great.
[QUOTE=NumberSix]Is Dirk having the combo of Chandler/Terry any better than what Kevin Love has with Pekovic/Rubio?
I'd STRONGLY argue that Pekovic/Rubio is better. Kevin Martin and Corey Brewer are about as good as over-the-hill Kidd and Peja. JJ Barea and Jos
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Wait...hold on...did you just claim that Terry was better than Gasol?
[/quote]
If my star player is off, this isn't even a question.
[quote]
Celtics one of the best teams ever? Dude...they needed 7 to beat the Hawks and Cavs...rofl. [/quote]
Did you miss the word DEFENSIVE.
[quote]
KG needed way more help than Dirk to win...and then only won once...while getting his shit kicked by Pau Gasol in 2010.[/quote]
He wasn't 100% healthy. Hello? Anybody home? He wins two maybe three if healthy. You always act brand new. Why you talking about KG, tho.
[quote]
The Mavs role players in 11 worth worse than the average title winning team. Like...you have no idea what you are ****ing talking about.
[/quote]
Sorry I just named nine main things that every contender would love to have. Keep up.
[quote]
The ****ing 2009 Lakers played better defense, quite considerably, than the 11 Mavs in the playoffs. [/quote]
They held four all time greats below their average. Stop lying. Keep up
[quote]
The defense of the 11 Mavs is getting absurdly over-rated. We had like a 106 defensive rating...LOL [/quote]
Had to have been Dirks man because it wasn't the better scoring guard or SF for sure. And it wasn't Tyson's man.
[quote]
The Bulls played great defense...not the Mavs. The mavs were like maybe the 10th best defense in the league? Somewhere around there...and didn't get any better in the playoffs... [/quote]
Yeap, the Bulls definitely played Lebron a lot better.
[quote]
But again...I'd never thought I'd see the day in which Chandler/Terry is too much help...I've now seen it all...until morons like you say something else [/quote]
Dmav's you so stupid it takes you 24 hours to watch 60 minutes.
Dmav's you so stupid you thought Taco Bell was a Mexican phone company.
Dmav's you so stupid you refused to go in a car pool because you thought you drown. :lol
[quote]
Oh...and stats lie? No...they actually don't. They are facts. You can make of them what you will...but it's just a fact that Dirk improved his teams defense in both the regular season and playoffs when he was on the floor. You call him a pathetic defender...the truth is that Dirk is a fine defender. He's just not great.[/QUOTE]
Average defenders guard the best and worse at their position. Below average defenders don't.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]If my star player is off, this isn't even a question.
Did you miss the word DEFENSIVE.
He wasn't 100% healthy. Hello? Anybody home? He wins two maybe three if healthy. You always act brand new. Why you talking about KG, tho.
Sorry I just named nine main things that every contender would love to have. Keep up.
They held four all time greats below their average. Stop lying. Keep up
Had to have been Dirks man because it wasn't the better scoring guard or SF for sure. And it wasn't Tyson's man.
Yeap, the Bulls definitely played Lebron a lot better.
Dmav's you so stupid it takes you 24 hours to watch 60 minutes.
Dmav's you so stupid you thought Taco Bell was a Mexican phone company.
Dmav's you so stupid you refused to go in a car pool because you thought you drown. :lol
Average defenders guard the best and worse at their position. Below average defenders don't.[/QUOTE]
Wait...now Terry is better than Gasol.
Just for fun.
18/2/3 60% TS...and poor defense vs 20/11/4 60% TS and solid defense
Terry was factually one of the worst 2nd options on a title team of this era. Especially on your criteria of valuing individual defense so much...Terry is an awful defensive player.
What? I thought defense was important? Now Terry is better than Gasol? How? Gasol is a better overall offensive player and is a far better rebounder and defender.
You are a ****ing moron.
And no...the Mavs had a worse defensive rating with Dirk off the floor. His man wasn't scoring. It was actually more likely it was Chandler's...as Rick had to pull Chandler off Aldridge in round 1 as LA was raping him.
It's a simple fact that the 09 Lakers played as good or better defense. They factually played better defense by most measures, but it's hard to compare defensive metrics between years.
I don't care if it was "defensive"...it's the same thing. KG played on a way more stacked team and played inferior competition. Does that mean his title isn't worth anything? Try this was on...without two first ball hall of famers...KG doesn't have a ring....LOL
You gave 9 points? What? Your points are retarded...they literally didn't even happen. The other SF wasn't scoring? KD averaged 28/10/4 against the Mavs...rofl. And Wade went off against us in the finals...
I want you to take a look at what the Mavs were;
Terry 18/2/3
Kidd 9/5/7
Marion 12/6/2
Chandler 8/9/0
Barea 9/2/3
Peja 7/2/0
Stevenson 5/1/1
Haywood 3/4/0
And again. They played good, but hardly great defense. Had about a 106 defensive rating in the playoffs...just not special overall. That is just meh at best historically for title winning teams. There was a reason they were 20 to 1 underdogs and it wasn't because of "Dirk" like you said...
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Wait...now Terry is better than Gasol.
Just for fun.
18/2/3 60% TS...and poor defense vs 20/11/4 60% TS and solid defense
What? I thought defense was important? Now Terry is better than Gasol? How? Gasol is a better overall offensive player and is a far better rebounder and defender. [/quote]
When you play on a defensive team where guys can hold down all time greats on their own and you need clutch shooting because your clutch shooter is off isn't a question as to who is better. I'd take Terry everytime.
[quote]
You are a ****ing moron.
And no...the Mavs had a worse defensive rating with Dirk off the floor. His man wasn't scoring. It was actually more likely it was Chandler's...as Rick had to pull Chandler off Aldridge in round 1 as LA was raping him.
[/quote]
:lol You're pathetic. But at least you are persistently consistent pathetic.
[quote]
It's a simple fact that the 09 Lakers played as good or better defense. They factually played better defense by most measures, but it's hard to compare defensive metrics between years.
[/quote]
Than who bozo? Well here's the deal, in the playoffs if you stop the superstars the rest will fall in line.
[quote]
I don't care if it was "defensive"...it's the same thing. KG played on a way more stacked team and played inferior competition. Does that mean his title isn't worth anything? Try this was on...without two first ball hall of famers...KG doesn't have a ring....LOL [/quote]
Whoopde dam Dooo.
[quote]
You gave 9 points? What? Your points are retarded...they literally didn't even happen. The other SF wasn't scoring? KD averaged 28/10/4 against the Mavs...rofl. [B]And Wade went off against us in the finals[/B]...[/QUOTE]
hahaha, no not in 2006... Wade couldn't take over and KD scored a lot when games were out of reach and almost devoid when the games got close. So what else didn't happen?