Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson - Complete Career Head-to-Head Stats

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Skills? Clutch play?

Magic was a better playoff performer, he was more versatile because of his ballhandling/speed/size combo that allowed him to play more roles/positions. He was a bigger matchup problem due to said versatility. He was more efficient. He could make an impact on D when needed, and even led the league in steals. Bird's got him in shooting but Magic was more efficient from the field, and could score in other ways(he could attack the paint in a way Bird couldn't).[/QUOTE]
This.

Magic could feature a player much better than anybody ever. He could could control the pace/tempo much better than anybody whoever played the game. Magic got teammates easy baskets better than anybody as well. His creativity for others is unmatched in the game as well. Ran the best break ever and could excel in the half court game as well.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Agreed. I'm a Magic fan, but I've always considered Bird more skillfull, and an overall BETTER basketball player. Hands down. Magic, suffice to say, took advantage of Bird's injuries (as he should have) and never looked back.

In a vacuum, they're about equal in the impact department, but Bird's intangibles i.e. his clutch play and skills give him the clear edge.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]I think it's pretty clear, that while both the 80's Lakers, and Celtics were stacked ... that overall Bird was working with less individual star talent. Also, he faced much tougher competition in his own conference. IMO he's the tougher, better basketball player.

Bird is even more versatile defensively across eras. Today he'd be a stretch PF. Who would Magic be able to guard?

Great playmaker, quarterback and passer while being ball dominant. Bird had great assist numbers considering he was playing out of the post, or on the wing.[/QUOTE]

well said fellas. magic is also one of my favorite players but I'm taking bird and i'm not even a celtics fan. let's see some categories....

- scoring: bird (magic could score great when he worked into it though)
- shooting: bird
- passing: magic (but bird was not far behind)
- rebounding: bird
- defense: bird
- making teammates better: equal
- clutch: bird (magic was still clutch)
- ball-handling: magic
- athleticism: magic
- post-game: bird (magic was also good)
- footwork: bird
- in-game iq: equal

all in all, i'm taking bird. magic as swish said already had an established hofer and a great team - both had amazing teams they made better though. as well, both revived the league but larry REVIVED a dying franchise. that's got to count for something.

they both had great accomplishments - but Bird faced far better competition in the east and NOBODY can deny that.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Agreed. I'm a Magic fan, but I've always considered Bird more skillfull, and an overall BETTER basketball player. Hands down. Magic, suffice to say, took advantage of Bird's injuries (as he should have) and never looked back.

In a vacuum, they're about equal in the impact department, but Bird's intangibles i.e. his clutch play and skills give him the clear edge.[/QUOTE]
Bird wasn't a better clutch player. That's false. Bird had two seasons where he was Big Time clutch in the post season. Magic had Four. And Magic played better ball in the finals and playoffs overall. Even during Bird's prime, it was very close - it wasn't close after '86. Bird was more skillful but to what effect? Magic's judgement was so much better he was significantly more efficient, which is the purpose of skill.

You have to give Dirk a lot of credit for his post season play and rightfully so. It matters. Dirk doesn't have hardly any great RS years. And many here consider him top three PF ever. That's how much PS matters.
[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]I think it's pretty clear, that while both the 80's Lakers, and Celtics were stacked ... that overall Bird was working with less individual star talent. Also, he faced much tougher competition in his own conference. IMO he's the tougher, better basketball player.

Bird is even more versatile defensively across eras. Today he'd be a stretch PF. Who would Magic be able to guard?

Great playmaker, quarterback and passer while being ball dominant. Bird had great assist numbers considering he was playing out of the post, or on the wing.[/QUOTE]
Bird played with the best frontcourt ever. The Celtics were better defenders and had three solid rebounders. DJ was also a very clutch player. Magic shared PG duties for four years. He wasn't ball dominant those years and he was a better offensive rebounder than Bird those years as well.

Magic wasn't a bad defender. He could guard most SF's today and most PF's today. You know back in the day, in the finals, he was guarding Adrew Toney, Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars and Paxson. Now that's a good representation of today's type of play. And its not like he was getting burned by them.

lmao at all the jordan fans in this thread saying larry is better than magic just to prop their boy because magic has a solid case for GOAT :roll:

fck me I can't stand lazareus and his wilt dick slurping but the old man knows some basketball tbh. One might argue that he props magic to decrease kareem in order to increase wilt>kareem argument, but he dropped a dime with them stats and he provided some solid reasoning.

Magic was more versatile than bird, he played PG as a natural position, a lot of 2 in his early days, some 3, and did some heavy lifting at PF/C when needed. Furthermore, this board needs to understand that scoring != shooting, look at magic's TS&FG and look at bird's TS&FG, even when they went head to head. Not to mention magic's controlling the pace of the game and ability to actually guard multiple positions (bird was a scrappy sob but he wasn't such a good defender). The reality with magic's scoring is that magic could obviously score much more efficiently (as he proved it numerous times) but he did what the team needed to get a W.

Bird was also 3 years older and thus he hit his prime faster, but both players have careers of comparable length played out on stacked teams so the injury argument is bogus. If magic didn't get aids he'd probably play till '95/'9, but it didn't happen.

Also, the argument with the weaker conference is bogus. Look at magic's record and stats on the east coast trips. Look at what he did in the finals. It's the same troll argument today used in lebron vs durant, that's been used by your daddies 25 years ago when they was giving it to your mommies. Shit never changes in sport sons.

Just face reality: Magic was simply a better, more complete and versatile player that won more, including in the h2h. Both teams were stacked as fck.

also 13/14 assists means at least 26/28 easy points ... should be taken into account as offensive production.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Agreed. I'm a Magic fan, but I've always considered Bird more skillfull, and an overall BETTER basketball player. Hands down. Magic, suffice to say, took advantage of Bird's injuries (as he should have) and never looked back.

In a vacuum, they're about equal in the impact department, but Bird's intangibles i.e. his clutch play and skills give him the clear edge.[/QUOTE]

Good points. Bird could shoot better, and could also get to the hole better. In my opinion, Bird was also a better passer, but Magic threw fastballs for quick two's, and would would push the ball up court hard, right in the center spot of floor -- this would give him three options (pass left, right, or in the middle). Due to Bird's shooting and volume scoring (more 40 and 50 point games) along with defense, I would say he had a more complete game, therefor the better player.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]I think it's pretty clear, that while both the 80's Lakers, and Celtics were stacked ... that overall Bird was working with less individual star talent. Also, he faced much tougher competition in his own conference. IMO he's the tougher, better basketball player.

Bird is even more versatile defensively across eras. Today he'd be a stretch PF. Who would Magic be able to guard?

Great playmaker, quarterback and passer while being ball dominant. Bird had great assist numbers considering he was playing out of the post, or on the wing.[/QUOTE]

Bird is probably the least ball dominant superstar in the history of the NBA. That doesn't necessarily make him superior, but certainly... Unique. To be a consistent triple double threat in that sort of fashion. When people talk greatest passing forward of all-time it's a difficult comparison for me because his play style was just so drastically different from Lebron's. Obviously, he didn't possess the physical tools of a PG at his height, couldn't create the same way as far as penetrating and making a defense collapse on him before kicking out zip passes on a dime (well, he could and did but not at the same level consistently). His threat was quite different from the aforementioned and more 'stationary' based, but as far as literally creating assists that otherwise probably wouldn't be there through his vision and use of angles nobody else on the court could see, he's still the best for me. Far (far) less ball handling, far less indecisive and able to create and improvise on IQ and Instinct. He often got rid of the rock like a hot potato and made decisions that resulted in buckets in less than a split second. Flawless in terms of the more fundamental aspects.

An Elite Scorer at his peak. Probably the most lethal off the ball scoring threat ever, ATG pure shooter with unlimited range but nobody would mistake him for Reggie Miller. He could certainly take about anybody 1v1 and got some of the nastiest bites on his pump fakes that you'll ever see on film. Such was the respect his shooting touch demanded. Had a great post-game to boot. On top of that, you're getting 10 boards a game and someone who was an absolute pest for the opposition as far as team defense and ability to make game changing, impact plays in the biggest of games. Just a bad, bad mother****er who has to be in the conversation for Most Skilled Ever considering his athletic limitations compared to his contemporaries. There is simply no other way he could've done it and still be relevant today if not for his pure skill, iq and instincts.

Not sure why Bird's pass through the legs of Sikma is so famous.

"Oh, he couldn't do that to Greaaaat Defender."

Oh yea, it's a good thing you weren't betting your existence on it huh?

He did the same shit to Michael Cooper [URL="http://youtu.be/0tbYj0Flg9k"]Here[/URL]

And Hakeem Olajuwon [URL="http://youtu.be/ROWAj7pAeZM"]Here[/URL]

You guys just keep yapping your bullshit though.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Agreed. I'm a Magic fan, but I've always considered Bird more skillfull, and an overall BETTER basketball player. Hands down. Magic, suffice to say, took advantage of Bird's injuries (as he should have) and never looked back.

In a vacuum, they're about equal in the impact department, but Bird's intangibles i.e. his clutch play and skills give him the clear edge.[/QUOTE]


This is an opinion I don't have a problem with. If you count their whole careers where Bird unfortunately gets injured; then I can accept opinions where Magic is rated ahead. Afterall, longevity and fitness counts. It depends how much you want to put on it IMO.

But I still think Bird was the better player. I still think Magic never really got to his level when Bird was fit. From 79-86, Magic never finished above Bird in the MVP voting. He finally got there in 87, but the next year (88), Bird took over him again as Jordan began his ascent.

If you had ended their careers at 88; I don't think it'd really even be close. Bird was already a serious GOAT contender; whereas Magic was a slight tier below - something like Kobe level. To his credit, he continued and established himself once Kareem faded and so he deserves that credit.

On the whole, when I look at it in the cold light; I just can't go past Larry anyway. He had all the disadvantages yet still made it competitive. If Bird was on the Lakers and Magic went to the Celtics; does anyone really think Bird wins less than Magic? I'm thinking more like 7 rings.

And just look at it in terms of basketball skills. Is there anything Magic did better than Bird than pass (and Larry himself is probably #2 only to Magic in that regard)? Shooter, passer, rebounder, defender, etc...Bird. And Bird got his without needing the ball that often. A player that efficient, that doesn't require that much ball contact to post those numbers is just unheard of. It's kind of mindblowing actually.

[QUOTE=Hands of Iron]Bird is probably the least ball dominant superstar in the history of the NBA. That doesn't necessarily make him superior, but certainly... Unique. To be a consistent triple double threat in that sort of fashion. When people talk greatest passing forward of all-time it's a difficult comparison for me because his play style was just so drastically different from Lebron's. Obviously, he didn't possess the physical tools of a PG at his height, couldn't create the same way as far as penetrating and making a defense collapse on him before kicking out zip passes on a dime (well, he could and did but not at the same level consistently). His threat was quite different from the aforementioned and more 'stationary' based, but as far as literally creating assists that otherwise probably wouldn't be there through his vision and use of angles nobody else on the court could see, he's still the best for me. Far (far) less ball handling, far less indecisive and able to create and improvise on IQ and Instinct. He often got rid of the rock like a hot potato and made decisions that resulted in buckets in less than a split second. Flawless in terms of the more fundamental aspects.

An Elite Scorer at his peak. Probably the most lethal off the ball scoring threat ever, ATG pure shooter with unlimited range but nobody would mistake him for Reggie Miller. He could certainly take about anybody 1v1 and got some of the nastiest bites on his pump fakes that you'll ever see on film. Such was the respect his shooting touch demanded. Had a great post-game to boot. On top of that, you're getting 10 boards a game and someone who was an absolute pest for the opposition as far as team defense and ability to make game changing, impact plays in the biggest of games. Just a bad, bad mother****er who has to be in the conversation for Most Skilled Ever considering his athletic limitations compared to his contemporaries. There is simply no other way he could've done it and still be relevant today if not for his pure skill, iq and instincts.[/QUOTE]

I love this breakdown. It's absurd in how many ways Bird was an ATG talent.

He was an elite scorer - could go toe to toe with anyone. He was an elite rebounder - look at the series against Moses. He was an elite passer - him and Magic are still on a different level, to this day. He was an incredible team defender - just read RoundMound's breakdown and his defensive rating contribution.

On top of that freakish ability to be amazing at almost everything...he was clutch as ****. Maybe, probably, the clutchest ever.

But with injuries he was the unluckiest mofo ever too. And yet he still has an incredible resume.

[QUOTE=Hands of Iron]Bird is probably the least ball dominant superstar in the history of the NBA. That doesn't necessarily make him superior, but certainly... Unique. To be a consistent triple double threat in that sort of fashion. When people talk greatest passing forward of all-time it's a difficult comparison for me because his play style was just so drastically different from Lebron's. Obviously, he didn't possess the physical tools of a PG at his height, couldn't create the same way as far as penetrating and making a defense collapse on him before kicking out zip passes on a dime (well, he could and did but not at the same level consistently). His threat was quite different from the aforementioned and more 'stationary' based, but as far as literally creating assists that otherwise probably wouldn't be there through his vision and use of angles nobody else on the court could see, he's still the best for me. Far (far) less ball handling, far less indecisive and able to create and improvise on IQ and Instinct. He often got rid of the rock like a hot potato and made decisions that resulted in buckets in less than a split second. Flawless in terms of the more fundamental aspects.

An Elite Scorer at his peak. Probably the most lethal off the ball scoring threat ever, ATG pure shooter with unlimited range but nobody would mistake him for Reggie Miller. He could certainly take about anybody 1v1 and got some of the nastiest bites on his pump fakes that you'll ever see on film. Such was the respect his shooting touch demanded. Had a great post-game to boot. On top of that, you're getting 10 boards a game and someone who was an absolute pest for the opposition as far as team defense and ability to make game changing, impact plays in the biggest of games. Just a bad, bad mother****er who has to be in the conversation for Most Skilled Ever considering his athletic limitations compared to his contemporaries. There is simply no other way he could've done it and still be relevant today if not for his pure skill, iq and instincts.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=LeBird]This is an opinion I don't have a problem with. If you count their whole careers where Bird unfortunately gets injured; then I can accept opinions where Magic is rated ahead. Afterall, longevity and fitness counts. It depends how much you want to put on it IMO.

But I still think Bird was the better player. I still think Magic never really got to his level when Bird was fit. From 79-86, Magic never finished above Bird in the MVP voting. He finally got there in 87, but the next year (88), Bird took over him again as Jordan began his ascent.

If you had ended their careers at 88; I don't think it'd really even be close. Bird was already a serious GOAT contender; whereas Magic was a slight tier below - something like Kobe level. To his credit, he continued and established himself once Kareem faded and so he deserves that credit.

On the whole, when I look at it in the cold light; I just can't go past Larry anyway. He had all the disadvantages yet still made it competitive. If Bird was on the Lakers and Magic went to the Celtics; does anyone really think Bird wins less than Magic? I'm thinking more like 7 rings.

And just look at it in terms of basketball skills. Is there anything Magic did better than Bird than pass (and Larry himself is probably #2 only to Magic in that regard)? Shooter, passer, rebounder, defender, etc...Bird. And Bird got his without needing the ball that often. A player that efficient, that doesn't require that much ball contact to post those numbers is just unheard of. It's kind of mindblowing actually.



I love this breakdown. It's absurd in how many ways Bird was an ATG talent.

He was an elite scorer - could go toe to toe with anyone. He was an elite rebounder - look at the series against Moses. He was an elite passer - him and Magic are still on a different level, to this day. He was an incredible team defender - just read RoundMound's breakdown and his defensive rating contribution.

On top of that freakish ability to be amazing at almost everything...he was clutch as ****. Maybe, probably, the clutchest ever.

But with injuries he was the unluckiest mofo ever too. And yet he still has an incredible resume.[/QUOTE]

:applause:


[QUOTE=Hands of Iron]Not sure why Bird's pass through the legs of Sikma is so famous.

"Oh, he couldn't do that to Greaaaat Defender."

Oh yea, it's a good thing you weren't betting your existence on it huh?

He did the same shit to Michael Cooper [URL="http://youtu.be/0tbYj0Flg9k"]Here[/URL]

And Hakeem Olajuwon [URL="http://youtu.be/ROWAj7pAeZM"]Here[/URL]

You guys just keep yapping your bullshit though.[/QUOTE]

[B]Making two all-time great defenders look like "fools"...

Sikma was a great defender, in his best days, though.
I've made my own list of DPOY's before it was awarded, reading articles, going over most stats, so on... And Jack was my choice in 1982 (even though he wasn't all-nba 1st, but that also happened afterwards)[/B]

With these two if could go either way. But offensively, Magic is the most versatile player of all time. I also think he's a bigger defensive matchup problem than Bird as well. Magic is also the greatest passer of all time and is still an alpha dog. And finally, Magic is more durable. So I'm fine with many saying Bird is better. But Magic is more of an anamoly who redefined his position more than any player did IN ANY SPORT. So peak wise i'm fine with people saying Bird. GOAT wise, (which is the defining measurement of a player) Magic HAS to be the answer!

For me, I think if you look at individual skills Bird might be better, but if you look at impact on a team, a 6'8" point guard might change a team more than a 6'9" small forward who could play big or small.

The Showtime Lakers's identity was built around his skills on the break. And the fact, you absolutely had to put a man on him or else he would just right to rim.

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]For me, I think if you look at individual skills Bird might be better, but if you look at impact on a team, a 6'8" point guard might change a team more than a 6'9" small forward who could play big or small.

The Showtime Lakers's identity was built around his skills on the break. And the fact, you absolutely had to put a man on him or else he would just right to rim.[/QUOTE]

Well said! Skill for skill, Bird is better than Magic. Bird is arguably the most skilled offensive player of all time. But I think Magic is the most versatile offensive player of all time. The mismatches Magic created were insane. He was bigger than the PG's, SG's, and even most SF's. Plus he's likely the best passer of all time. Which was enhanced by his size.