Russell to LeBron: "Thank you for leaving me off your Mt. Rushmore."

[QUOTE=RoseCity07]Kidd is 6-5:facepalm[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jason-Kidd-3144/[/url]

6-3

Reason why anyone strive to win as much and as often as Russell is because of their sensitivity towards their legacy. The same thing can be said about many of the all time greats in fact it is the reason for their greatness. Russell did all you can basically do to have a flawless legacy as a winner and yet people 45 years later are attempting to tear him down.

[QUOTE=RoseCity07]Kidd is 6-5:facepalm[/QUOTE]

Yes, he was almost 65 when he shut down Lebron , almost. :applause:

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Right.[/QUOTE]
He is talking about team awards won with different teams...he cant say "we" or "us" or any plurals cause no one else was involved in all of those awards, "I" is basically all he could use. Notice he didnt mention his MVPs....nice try though.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]? And why would he waste his time on that sh*t when he's winning every single season?

There's NOTHING bad 'on him' about how he played the game given how much success he had winning at every stage, absolutely nothing. Maybe all the people who focus on skill should take a page out of his book for wasting their time polishing skills and not focusing enough on figuring out the absolute basic raw intangibles necessary that go into winning you know? I'm actually more inclined to think that than to take your stance on the matter. The way Russell played the game just might be the [I]perfect[/I] way to play.[/QUOTE]

That is just so disrespectful to the game. So basketball is the only sport where you don't need skill to be the best? One of the few things on the planet you don't need skill to excel in. You are only insulting the game when you say something like that. It says that anybody can come along and be the best in the game. You work on your craft you become better at it. The distance between two players usually isn't great at all as any ten different fans will usually have ten different top tens. But if one player is very skilled, and the other isn't, is there every really a conversation.

Whatever you take for granted you pay for it. And Russell rested on his laurels. MJ worked at his game tirelessly. And for every natural advantage you name me that Russell has I will most definitely name you two that Jordan has. Lets say Jordan didn't have to do develop skills. Did it make him better or worse? Every player could use it in every sport or endeavor in life.

[QUOTE=RoseCity07]Dude is so mad Lebron doesn't respect him. Guy won his titles against 5-5 white guys. 1 Lebron titles is like 8 from the 60's.[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE] When Wilt Chamberlain entered the NBA in 1960, there were only four players in the league that were taller than 6-8 (including Wilt at 7-1 and Russell at 6-9).[/QUOTE]

Coincidence that they all dominated the league full of financial consultants back then? Nope. Kwame Brown probably would have averaged 50-30 back then. Joakim Noah would have averaged 35-35-15 back then and would have been etched on the NBA Mount Rushmore. Crazy how the date when you were born can affect your NBA legacy so much.

Btw the 100 meter record was 10.00 seconds in 1960. Now it's 9.58...imagine Bolt racing the record holder from back then :roll:

Shaq/Duncan
MJ
KAJ
Bird
Hakeem
Lebron
Kobe
Magic
Wilt

Russell not in my top ten.

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT]:biggums:

:facepalm[/QUOTE]
So what are you saying.

Russell was very skilled? That he practiced hard? We know the answers to those two. What exactly are you saying?

[QUOTE=secund2nun]Coincidence that they all dominated the league full of financial consultants back then? Nope. Kwame Brown probably would have averaged 50-30 back then. Joakim Noah would have averaged 35-35-15 back then and would have been etched on the NBA Mount Rushmore. Crazy how the date when you were born can affect your NBA legacy so much.

Btw the 100 meter record was 10.00 seconds in 1960. Now it's 9.58...imagine Bolt racing the record holder from back then :roll:[/QUOTE]

Using eras to demean a player will ultimately come back to bite you in the butt.

Kids in 2050 will be rolling their eyes when you mention Lebron.

[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]Jordan
Magic
Bird
Duncan
[B]Hakeem[/B]
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Kobe
Russell[/QUOTE]

:kobe:

On what ******* planet is Hakeem better than Oscar Robertson?

[QUOTE=Magic 32]Using eras to demean a player will ultimately come back to bite you in the butt.

Kids in 2050 will be rolling their eyes when you mention Lebron.[/QUOTE]

It could, but progression levels off after a while. The league was trash back in the 60s compared to now. If you compare the league now vs the league in 30 years the gap between them will be much smaller than the gap between now/60s. Ex. In a span of 40 years the 100 meter record went from 10 to 9.58. 40 years from now will the record be 9.18? Absolutely not. It will be maybe 9.49 or something like that.


Kids in the future can at least see video of today's stars and freaks like Lebron at 6'8 270 running 4.4 speed against other freaks..they can see 6'5 230 pound 4.3 speed Calvin Johnson torching people...unlike back then when the grainy film shows a bunch of regular 6'9 black guys dunking over slow small short white guys.

Do I think the league will get better in talent over time? Yes I do. The talent pool just keeps getting larger and larger. One of these days I think a prospect is gonna come out with the size and athleticism of Shaq with the passing ability of Lebron.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]That is just so disrespectful to the game. So basketball is the only sport where you don't need skill to be the best? One of the few things on the planet you don't need skill to excel in. You are only insulting the game when you say something like that. It says that anybody can come along and be the best in the game. You work on your craft you become better at it. The distance between two players usually isn't great at all as any ten different fans will usually have ten different top tens. But if one player is very skilled, and the other isn't, is there every really a conversation.

Whatever you take for granted you pay for it. And Russell rested on his laurels. MJ worked at his game tirelessly. And for every natural advantage you name me that Russell has I will most definitely name you two that Jordan has. Lets say Jordan didn't have to do develop skills. Did it make him better or worse? Every player could use it in every sport or endeavor in life.[/QUOTE]
Bill Russell thought outside the box, he probably had the most clarity in his mind of just exactly what needed to be done to win out of any NBA player. All that hard work towards polishing skillsets might literally be a pointless endeavour and a distraction when it is done beyond a certain point. Pistol Pete was infinitely more skilled than Bill Russell, but what the hell did he ever do as far as winning goes?

Sorry you feel it is a disrespectful conclusion but it might just be true. Bill Russell didn't need to shoot 1,000 shots a day from 20+ feet nor shoot another 1,000 turnaround J's, nor dribble between cones with oven mitts on his hands to be the best player ever. That shit, though it might result in looking pretty out there on the floor, might be a whole lot of work for little to no reward compared to all the little things HE was aware of on the court and what HE figured out he had to do to control the outcomes of games. And let's not act like he didn't work. He did work, on rebounding, and on defense, and offensively he fed his teammates and scored a lot of cleanup and backdoor points. The level that he refined all those things might just be all it takes to reach as close to basketball [I]perfection[/I] as possible. It is quite possible that polishing 'skills' to the degree that some players do is culminating to nothing more than an isolated distraction away from winning. The objective is to win. The objective is not to become more skilled.

[IMG]http://s17.postimg.org/q309lba9b/phil_jackson_would_pick_bill_russell_over_michae.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Right.[/QUOTE]

Whether I (or anyone else) agrees with this or not, it is still funny.

I have to admit, I am getting some genuine laughs tonight.

:applause:

Funny is still funny...

[QUOTE=secund2nun]Coincidence that they all dominated the league full of financial consultants back then? Nope. Kwame Brown probably would have averaged 50-30 back then. Joakim Noah would have averaged 35-35-15 back then and would have been etched on the NBA Mount Rushmore. Crazy how the date when you were born can affect your NBA legacy so much.

Btw the 100 meter record was 10.00 seconds in 1960. Now it's 9.58...imagine Bolt racing the record holder from back then :roll:[/QUOTE]

:facepalm

[B]Kwame Brown is not even remotely close to Bill's level of skill, plus IQ and other intangibles, he's not even close to him as an athlete lmfao. Noah is not a better athlete than Russell and although really good too in things like skill and intangibles, doesn't compare to Bill

No, better yet imagine Bolt running on some ****ed up track/floor with some wack-ass shoes and overall equipment, not having all of these modern luxuries, everything you can account for (and I won't even mention more, yea you know what I'm talkin about)... He wouldn't be even be close - considering 100 meter standpoint - to 9.58.

Ban these ignorant-ass children.[/B]

[QUOTE=9erempiree]I usually don't get upset on here but it is pretty sad that people are disrespecting Russell.

:facepalm[/QUOTE]


This. I mean the guy had 11 rings. I don't care if it was filled with unathletic 6'1 guys (it wasn't) but 11 Championships, in [I]any[/I] sport, irrespective of era is extremely impressive. Be real now. If you have 11 rings, and Russell's HOF teammates had 7 or 8 rings, that shows you Russell was the reason for victory, period. 11 of anything whether it be superbowls, world series, gold medals in the 1500m it doesn't matter, 11 championships is just insane

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Russell didn't realize that Lebron picked guys with all around games, smart and had immaculate skill. Russell isn't remotely in that conversation. If Lebron were to name a center it would have been Wilt or Hakeem.

Lebron's intention was obvious as hell.[/QUOTE]

And thats why hes dead wrong.. Russell may not have been an elite scorer, but he certainly had elite ability in every other facet and it was enough to form an all time great package.


Is there ANYONE that would take bran over Bill Russell?? That guy would literally make bran shit his pants.. Lebron is so damn coddled and sheltered all his life compared to Bill fcking Russell lol the Malcolm X of the NBA. He would get MURKED.

[QUOTE=oarabbus]This. I mean the guy had 11 rings. I don't care if it was filled with unathletic 6'1 guys (it wasn't) but 11 Championships, in [I]any[/I] sport, irrespective of era is extremely impressive. Be real now. If you have 11 rings, and Russell's HOF teammates had 7 or 8 rings, that shows you Russell was the reason for victory, period. 11 of anything whether it be superbowls, world series, gold medals in the 1500m it doesn't matter, 11 championships is just insane[/QUOTE]

yep.

It doesn't matter how many people try to say he can't score or he can't do this but the fact of the matter is, he is the team's best player.

If people watch games from the past, they would know the Centers were the team's top dogs back in the days. They were like the QB directing traffic on defense while their teammates had their back turned.

Bill Walton was like this too.

[QUOTE=secund2nun]It could, but progression levels off after a while. The league was trash back in the 60s compared to now. If you compare the league now vs the league in 30 years the gap between them will be much smaller than the gap between now/60s. Ex. In a span of 40 years the 100 meter record went from 10 to 9.58. 40 years from now will the record be 9.18? Absolutely not. It will be maybe 9.49 or something like that.


Kids in the future can at least see video of today's stars and freaks like Lebron at 6'8 270 running 4.4 speed against other freaks..they can see 6'5 230 pound 4.3 speed Calvin Johnson torching people...unlike back then when the grainy film shows a bunch of regular 6'9 black guys dunking over slow small short white guys.

Do I think the league will get better in talent over time? Yes I do. The talent pool just keeps getting larger and larger. One of these days I think a prospect is gonna come out with the size and athleticism of Shaq with the passing ability of Lebron.[/QUOTE]

Wilt ran a 40 yard dash at 4.6 seconds.. he was a damn seven footer with elite strength and size. :oldlol:

Bill Russel guarded Wilt Chamberlain.. he was an olympic level athlete himself. The guards back then honestly do look less athletic, but the big men back then were flat out just as big and fast as todays but they actually had skill.

Overall you're severley overestimating todays athletes in favor of those only 30- 40 years ago.. human evolution simply doesnt happen fast enough for there to be that big a gap in genetics between than and now.

Give Russell equivalent players from today's era and Russell being Russell, he can carry a lot of teams in this era.

[QUOTE=tpols]Wilt ran a 40 yard dash at 4.6 seconds.. he was a damn seven footer with elite strength and size. :oldlol:

Bill Russel guarded Wilt Chamberlain.. he was an olympic level athlete himself. The guards back then honestly do look less athletic, but the big men back then were flat out just as big and fast as todays but they actually had skill.[/QUOTE]
Why can't people just admit that the NBA back then was a D-League in comparison to today's talent? It's ok. We all know it to be true, but most people have this aversion to admitting they know it.

[QUOTE=tpols]And thats why hes dead wrong.. Russell may not have been an elite scorer, but he certainly had elite ability in every other facet and it was enough to form an all time great package.


Is there ANYONE that would take bran over Bill Russell?? [B]That guy would literally make bran shit his pants.. Lebron is so damn coddled and sheltered all his life compared to Bill fcking Russell lol the Malcolm X of the NBA. He would get MURKED.[/B][/QUOTE]
This is very true, MJ and Dirk had flue games right? Impressive, Wilt a broken hand game, also impressive.

Bill Russell? He got STABBED in a bar fight during the Finals one season and the opposing Lakers center deliberately was hammering his stab wound all game. I haven't looked into which game/series that was yet. But Russell still won, and apparently went at the opposing center hard after he started targeting the wound.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]This is very true, MJ and Dirk had flue games right? Impressive, Wilt a broken hand game, also impressive.

Bill Russell? He got STABBED in a bar fight during the Finals one season and the opposing Lakers center deliberately was hammering his stab wound all game. I haven't looked into which game/series that was yet. But Russell still won, and apparently went at the opposing center hard after he started targeting the wound.[/QUOTE]

He just seems like an absurdly fierce competitor.. grew up in a tough area, had to deal with shit Bran could only dream of in terms of the times..

Bron is a spoiled prodigy.. weve seen how he reacts to moments of extreme stress or pressure. He cracks. He hasnt been through adversity like Bill Russell. I remember him and Wade mocking Dirk being sick, fake coughing in the Finals laughing at the mavs when they were about to go up 3-0:oldlol: Hes a frontrunning pos and immature as they come.

Russel was on another plane mentally, discipline wise and would just absolutely destroy bran

branities=delusional clowns

Bill Russell wouldn't even make the playoffs if you replace Lebron with him on the Heat team.

At best a Nene-like player and impact.

[QUOTE=MichaelCorleone]Bill Russell wouldn't even make the playoffs if you replace Lebron with him on the Heat team.

At best a Nene-like player and impact.[/QUOTE]

:biggums:

Just take away LeBron (no Russell) and that Heat team is still a top 2 seed in the East

[QUOTE=tpols]He just seems like an absurdly fierce competitor.. grew up in a tough area, had to deal with shit Bran could only dream of in terms of the times..

Bron is a spoiled prodigy.. weve seen how he reacts to moments of extreme stress or pressure. He cracks. He hasnt been through adversity like Bill Russell. I remember him and Wade mocking Dirk being sick, fake coughing in the Finals laughing at the mavs when they were about to go up 3-0:oldlol: Hes a frontrunning pos and immature as they come.

Russel was on another plane mentally, discipline wise and would just absolutely destroy bran[/QUOTE]

So you wouldn't pick Kobe over Russell? And stop trying to act like you've actually seen Bill play.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Bill Russell thought outside the box, he probably had the most clarity in his mind of just exactly what needed to be done to win out of any NBA player. All that hard work towards polishing skillsets might literally be a pointless endeavour and a distraction when it is done beyond a certain point. Pistol Pete was infinitely more skilled than Bill Russell, but what the hell did he ever do as far as winning goes?
[/quote]
I think in general people have a top twelve and then there is a fall off. If all of the top ten won 5 rings, then we focus on the difference in the player. Russell was a great winner and that does make a difference. Duncan is a player that most people up because of his winning ability. He could have easily won one more ring with a bad bounce. Most people have Hakeem as a better player but like other players the organization comes into play and Duncan wins more. Aurabach was a bit ahead of other organizations. He was able to get Bird, Bias (the bigger version of MJ), Russell and if Wilt wasn't head strong he would have gotten him in territorial rights.

How many other teams were constructed to play defense before the NY Knicks won in 1970 outside of the Celtics? Aurabach was ahead of his time.
[quote]
Sorry you feel it is a disrespectful conclusion but it might just be true. Bill Russell didn't need to shoot 1,000 shots a day from 20+ feet nor shoot another 1,000 turnaround J's, nor dribble between cones with oven mitts on his hands to be the best player ever. That shit, though it might result in looking pretty out there on the floor, might be a whole lot of work for little to no reward compared to all the little things HE was aware of on the court and what HE figured out he had to do to control the outcomes of games. And let's not act like he didn't work. He did work, on rebounding, and on defense, and offensively he fed his teammates and scored a lot of cleanup and backdoor points. The level that he refined all those things might just be all it takes to reach as close to basketball [I]perfection[/I] as possible. It is quite possible that polishing 'skills' to the degree that some players do is culminating to nothing more than an isolated distraction away from winning. The objective is to win. The objective is not to become more skilled.[/QUOTE]
Russell had a great work ethic on the court. His hustle got him rebounds and his smart play helped get him rings. But he could survive a lot of very close playoff series without being the clutch shooter, the creator, the guy making sure its in the right hands. He could depend on others to do that. His team took a lot of the burden off of him. If he's playing against the majority of the top ten with equal teams he's not going to win more than most of them. He was a great athlete but not an overwhelming one like Shaq. So he needs something to couple with that. Jordan needed it and Jordan has all the intangibles Russell had. I could be missing something but I doubt it.

Now I do understand there were times when Russell went off in crucial games in a big way, but it wasn't like that most of the time. And if he was skilled, I'm sure it would have done it most of the time. But skills is a big thing in every sport and I'm definitely don't see an exception for a guy who didn't apply himself that way. If you have skills you can adapt and control more the game. If Russell didn't have shooters, creators and even other defensive pieces he would be gauged differently.

[QUOTE=HoopsFanNumero1]So you wouldn't pick Kobe over Russell? And stop trying to act like you've actually seen Bill play.[/QUOTE]

hell no I wouldnt choose kobe over russell.. I havent seen him play, but Ive read a lot about him and specifically seen what past legends have said and all signs point towards him being the master of intangibles and on another level of understandoing how to impact the game

[QUOTE=tpols]And thats why hes dead wrong.. Russell may not have been an elite scorer, but he certainly had elite ability in every other facet and it was enough to form an all time great package.
[/quote]
You never saw him play. You don't know that. Was he creative? Could he make something out of nothing? If he got the ball outside of ten feet and the clock is running out, what was he like?

[quote]
Is there ANYONE that would take bran over Bill Russell?? That guy would literally make bran shit his pants.. Lebron is so damn coddled and sheltered all his life compared to Bill fcking Russell lol the Malcolm X of the NBA. He would get MURKED.[/QUOTE]
Magic and Bird changed the game. Now you had ultimately skilled, super smart players, that could penetrate, post, run, shoot, pass in four directions at very fast speeds and were deadly from every part of the floor, control nearly every part of the game, manipulate every type of defender, go left hand or right hand and use the whole court in one body, and get players the ball in their sweet spots all day. They could play chess with any team.

If Russell comes out to guard them they will hit the cutter and run all day. Russell probably was the greatest defender but he wasn't from Mars. I mean we just got around to realizing he wasn't the best one on one defender at the time. He was quick a foot like KG but outside of Regular8, Flppi and Lazuruss, who are very consistent, KG isn't getting much love from the Russell camp.

Russell is bitter.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]You never saw him play. You don't know that. Was he creative? Could he make something out of nothing? [B]If he got the ball outside of ten feet and the clock is running out, what was he like?[/B]
[/QUOTE]
[url]http://youtu.be/SF22xiRxHv8?t=47s[/url]
Clutch. Confident. And Dominant. That's what he was like.

He was a complete player. He wasn't allergic to offense, and he could run any play on his team regardless of what position it was intended for.

[QUOTE=RoseCity07]Dude is so mad Lebron doesn't respect him. Guy won his titles against 5-5 white guys. 1 Lebron titles is like 8 from the 60's.[/QUOTE]

Come on. You're one of the best posters on this forum. Don't stoop to the trolls' level. You cannot seriously believe that statement.

If you are going to pick 4 players of the NBA greats, somebody's bound to be snubbed.
As omissions go, Russell is a big one, but you can't really blame Lebron.
If memory serves he picked MJ(obvious choice, everybody would go crazy if he left him off), Magic and Bird(reflects the players that were talked about and respected when he was growing up) and Oscar(most people on this board don't have him in their TOP 10, but he has a case and most importantly he was supporting Lebron when pretty much everybody else was criticizing him).
If he said Mj,Russ,Wilt,Oscar there would be backlash from the Bird and Magic camp, you can't win with this amount of scrutiny.
It's not that Russell cares about what Lebron thinks per se, he is probably more upset that in the conversation this created, he was being left out more often than not.

[QUOTE=Pointguard][B]You never saw him play. You don't know that.[/B] Was he creative? Could he make something out of nothing? If he got the ball outside of ten feet and the clock is running out, what was he like?
[/QUOTE]
Did you see him play? All I can go off is the words of his contemporaries.. who thought he was better than players who had way gaudier numbers.. and who explained that he was the glue holding the C's dynasty together.


[QUOTE=jlip]
[I]“[B]We don’t fear the Celtics without Bill Russell. Take him out and we can beat them[/B] … He’s the guy who whipped us psychologically. Russell has our club worrying every second.” [/I]
--Lakers head coach John Kundia after getting swept in the 1959 Finals by Russell’s Celtics

[I]"We can win without me, we can win without Heinsohn, we can win without Sharman, [B]but without Big Bill, we don't win[/B]."[/I]
--Bob Cousy,1961

[I]“If it weren’t for Russell, you guys wouldn’t be crap.” [/I]
--Oscar Robertson to Red Auerbach, 1963

[I]“[B]If we played Boston four on four, without Russell, we probably would have won every series.[/B] The guy killed us. H[B]e's the one who prevented us from achieving true greatness.[/B]”[/I]
-- L.A. Lakers forward "Hot Rod" Hundley
.[/QUOTE]

credit to jlip obviously.. read this a while ago. You think these guys dont know what theyre talking about? Ever think Russel knew the strengths and weaknesses of his team and adapted accordingly.. ie if he was on a shit team he would have worked/adapted in a different way?

[QUOTE=tpols]specifically seen what past legends have said [/QUOTE]


Michael Jordan once said 'This Adam Morrison kid is a can't miss"

[QUOTE=Akrazotile]Michael Jordan once said 'This Adam Morrison kid is a can't miss"[/QUOTE]

Theres a difference between projecting the future and judging an established all time great.. one is rooted in speculation and uncertainty.. the other is just a telling of what happened. Its silly to compare the two

[QUOTE=Akrazotile]Michael Jordan once said 'This Adam Morrison kid is a can't miss"[/QUOTE]
And notice how he didn't quote MJ?

50s and 60s are irrelevant.

[QUOTE=Ratnik]50s and 60s are irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.

NBA started when Magic and Bird were drafted.