"Pippen was the best player in the world in 93, 94, 95" - Dennis Rodman

.
[SIZE=3]* Rodman is mad that he couldn't do shit with the league MVP in 1995 (Robinson)

* 95' Pippen had a .500 team before MJ returned to carry him to another 3-peat

* Pippen was bad in the playoffs for each of the 3 years that Rodman said Pippen was good:[/size]


[Indent][B]13' Wade. Playoffs[/B]...... 18.7 PER.. 3.0 bpm.. 1.0 vorp.. 0.108 ws/48
[B]93' Pippen Playoffs[/B]'.... 16.9 PER.. 2.0 bpm.. 0.8 vorp.. 0.083 ws/48

[B]94' Ewing. ECSF[/B].... 23/12 on 53%
[B]94' Pippen ECSF[/B]..... 22/8 on 41%

[B]14' Wade. ECF[/B]........ 20 and 5 apg... 47% (1b to bron's 22 ppg)
[B]95' Pippen ECSF[/B]'.... 19 and 6 apg... 41%[/Indent]



[SIZE=3] Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat[/SIZE]


[Indent][B]14' Wade Playoffs[/B]...'.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
[B]93' Pippen Playoffs[/B]... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


[U]Per 100 Possessions[/U]

[B]14' Wade[/B]...'.. 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
[B]93' Pippen[/B]... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg[/indent]



[B]TLDR:[/B] Rodman is off his rocker

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14335286]Top 2-3 is a stretch when you consider Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Ewing, and Malone. Not to mention MJ returned in 1995 and played in 1996. [/QUOTE]
It cant be a stretch if hes garnering more all-NBA votes than these players. Come on.

[QUOTE]Ewing in 1994 beat Chicago with Pippen. In 1995, Ewing led his team to 55 wins and the #3 seed.
[/QUOTE]
You're joking right? We gonna hold this against Pippen in that the Bulls lost their best player and go in to play their rival and they barely lose?

[QUOTE]Barkley's impact in both 1994 and 1995 can't be ignored either.

Also, I'm putting Penny above Pippen those years. Pippen has the clear advantage in 1994 as Penny was a rookie, but Penny outplayed Pippen in the 1995 and 1996 playoffs with comparable regular season production.

Remember, it was Pippen that guarded Penny in the '96 ECF and Penny dominated him.

mehya has a point in that he's top 8, maybe 9 if you throw in Kemp. People forget how well Kemp would play in the playoffs against elite competition.[/QUOTE]

Hardaway did not dominate Pippen in 96. Look at Penny's FG% in each game. 71% in a 38pt blowout loss. 43%, 33, and 40%. Hardly dominant.

I obviously cant argue you guys perception of Pip. I think it's clear that you guys are more Jordan lovers that unbiased basketball fans. At the least you guys are revisionist. This doesnt apply to you Hoops. While I think you're a fair poster, I think you are trying to inflict your own personal view on what was perceived back then. And that's where you're wrong bro. The facts dont support your way of thinking.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14335412]It cant be a stretch if hes garnering more all-NBA votes than these players. Come on.


You're joking right? We gonna hold this against Pippen in that the Bulls lost their best player and go in to play their rival and they barely lose?[/QUOTE]

How am I "holding" it against Pippen? The teams were evenly matched and Ewing and NY won. In addition, Ewing had a better year in 1995. What's so outrageous about that?

[QUOTE]Hardaway did not dominate Pippen in 96. Look at Penny's FG% in each game. 71% in a 38pt blowout loss. 43%, 33, and 40%. Hardly dominant.
[/QUOTE]

On paper, the games were a 2-2 split but anyone who watched Penny that series saw him outplay Pippen. In addition, some of the statistics are skewed because when Chicago switched MJ onto Penny, he rarely scored. It's a small sample size but the numbers are skewed a bit.

[QUOTE]I obviously cant argue you guys perception of Pip. I think it's clear that you guys are more Jordan lovers that unbiased basketball fans. At the least you guys are revisionist. This doesnt apply to you Hoops. While I think you're a fair poster, I think you are trying to inflict your own personal view on what was perceived back then. And that's where you're wrong bro. The facts dont support your way of thinking.[/QUOTE]

I can't speak for the other posters, but I don't see how this is revisionist in the least. I was around back then, too, and right off the bat, Hakeem, Malone, Robinson, and Shaq get the nod unanimously over Pippen. Then you have MJ for a small sample in 1995 but definitely 1996. So that's 5 guys right there.

Ewing, Kemp, Barkley, and Penny are closer in rank, but it's not unfounded to put them over Pippen, collectively, for all 3 years.

Kemp was a 21/11 player on high efficiency. Did you see what he did to Malone, Rodman, and Hakeem in the paint in the playoffs? Seattle won 63, 57, and 64 games in that three year stretch. Granted, Kemp had GP. But Kemp's performances in the playoffs trump that of Pippen's.

I'm not sure what your argument is for Pippen decisively being better than Ewing in those years. Can you explain that?

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14335506]How am I "holding" it against Pippen? The teams were evenly matched and Ewing and NY won. In addition, Ewing had a better year in 1995. What's so outrageous about that?
[/QUOTE]
The Bulls barely beat the Knicks WITH Jordan. Now you're saying they shouldve beat their biggest competitors at the time without their best player? And I'm sure if I put let's say Latrell Sprewell or Hersey Hawkins on the 94 Bulls, then you'd say theh dont get any further because you want to protect Michael Jordan's legacy. The fact that they took the Knicks to 7 hard fought games, and one being lost in a controversial manner says a lot.

[QUOTE]On paper, the games were a 2-2 split but anyone who watched Penny that series saw him outplay Pippen. In addition, some of the statistics are skewed because when Chicago switched MJ onto Penny, he rarely scored. It's a small sample size but the numbers are skewed a bit.
[/QUOTE]
I watched that series. And I didn't come away thinking Penny outplayed Pip much less dominated him. And while I agree Jordan obviously checked Penny at times, Pippen was the main guy. Theres a website that was made to actually prop up MJ that even said Pippen guarded Penny most of time in 96. The website was made to squash the argument that Pippen always guarded the opposition's best scorer.

[QUOTE]I can't speak for the other posters, but I don't see how this is revisionist in the least. I was around back then, too, and right off the bat, Hakeem, Malone, Robinson, and Shaq get the nod unanimously over Pippen. Then you have MJ for a small sample in 1995 but definitely 1996. So that's 5 guys right there.

Ewing, Kemp, Barkley, and Penny are closer in rank, but it's not unfounded to put them over Pippen, collectively, for all 3 years.

Kemp was a 21/11 player on high efficiency. Did you see what he did to Malone, Rodman, and Hakeem in the paint in the playoffs? Seattle won 63, 57, and 64 games in that three year stretch. Granted, Kemp had GP. But Kemp's performances in the playoffs trump that of Pippen's.

I'm not sure what your argument is for Pippen decisively being better than Ewing in those years. Can you explain that?[/QUOTE]

Look where they finished in MVP, All-NBA, DPOY, and All-Defense teams bro. Go back and read this thread. Roundball Rock plainly lays out why Pip was so highly regarded by his peers from 94-96. Even in the video, Max Kellerman called Pippen the 2nd best player after Olajuwan. And hes no Pippen fan.

97 Bulls taking these Jordan stans to class :applause:

[QUOTE=Pip' N Rodman;14335256]:eek:

:banana:[/QUOTE]
:lebronamazed:

Class is in session. We have a real Bulls fan here.

97 Bulls taking these Jordan stans to class :applause:

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14335220]But that's the thing. Its nots just me bro. I ask again, did you read the information Roundball Rock put out? He was clearly top 2-3 over 94-96. Based on All NBA, MVP, All defense and DPOY voting. Not to mention what the players were saying. Rodman wasnt the only one that felt that way about Pippen.[/QUOTE]

we can pullup cherry-picked quotes for most stars. thats not an argument dude. some of pippen's peers like shaq/barkley/webber don't believe he was that guy. others, like reggie for example, thought he was a great all-around player. it really depends on your source, although by most objective measures, pippen never produced like a top 5 guy. forget best in the world. again, that's with defense & postseason play accounted for.

shaq/drob/malone/barkley/jordan are all guys i'd take over pippen. and so would most gm's back then.

[quote=HoopsNY]mehya has a point in that he's top 8, maybe 9 if you throw in Kemp. People forget how well Kemp would play in the playoffs against elite competition.[/QUOTE]

that's the reality here, hoops. top 8 is really generous when you start talking impact. bigmen ruled the scene in the 90s, and the only perimeter player who had bigman-like impact was jordan.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14335519]The Bulls barely beat the Knicks WITH Jordan. Now you're saying they shouldve beat their biggest competitors at the time without their best player? And I'm sure if I put let's say Latrell Sprewell or Hersey Hawkins on the 94 Bulls, then you'd say theh dont get any further because you want to protect Michael Jordan's legacy. The fact that they took the Knicks to 7 hard fought games, and one being lost in a controversial manner says a lot.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what Jordan not being on the team has to do with it. The two teams were evenly matched. If Pippen was indeed the better player, then the combination of him and Grant should have proven to be successful. If we go by what you're saying, Pippen+Grant are the better combo than Ewing+Starks and resulted in a win.

But that didn't happen. Chicago lost and Ewing also had a better year the following season. So if he led his team to a higher seed in both 1994 and 1995, put up better numbers or at least comparable, and beat Pippen head to head while performing better, why would we just assume that Pippen > Ewing during that stretch of time?

[QUOTE]I watched that series. And I didn't come away thinking Penny outplayed Pip much less dominated him. And while I agree Jordan obviously checked Penny at times, Pippen was the main guy. Theres a website that was made to actually prop up MJ that even said Pippen guarded Penny most of time in 96. The website was made to squash the argument that Pippen always guarded the opposition's best scorer.
[/QUOTE]

Okay, I agree that he didn't dominate him, but he did outplay him. Pippen did guard Penny most of the time, which is essentially my point. He didn't shut down Penny and Penny did in fact have the better series. Not to mention, did you watch Penny in the '95 finals?

Penny put up 26/5/8 on 64% TS%. Penny's performance was better than Pippen's 1996 finals and anything Pippen did between 1994-96, on the biggest stage.

That of course is lost in the conversation and completely ignored.

[QUOTE]Look where they finished in MVP, All-NBA, DPOY, and All-Defense teams bro. Go back and read this thread. Roundball Rock plainly lays out why Pip was so highly regarded by his peers from 94-96. Even in the video, Max Kellerman called Pippen the 2nd best player after Olajuwan. And hes no Pippen fan.[/QUOTE]

Kellerman is wrong. Pippen definitely doesn't rank higher than Robinson, Shaq, Malone, and MJ from 1994-96. And then there are a host of players who are better if not equal.

One thing you're forgetting is that MJ missed all of 1994 and most of 1995. Shaq missed a significant portion of 1995 and 1996. Penny was a rookie in 1994. And Barkley missed a lot of games as well between the three years (42 in total).

It makes sense that Pippen received more votes looking for various accolades as he was consistently healthy and played full seasons. You have to take that into consideration if you're going to look at voting. But that doesn't automatically mean he was the better player.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14335519]The Bulls barely beat the Knicks WITH Jordan. Now you're saying they shouldve beat their biggest competitors at the time without their best player? And I'm sure if I put let's say Latrell Sprewell or Hersey Hawkins on the 94 Bulls, then you'd say theh dont get any further because you want to protect Michael Jordan's legacy. The fact that they took the Knicks to 7 hard fought games, and one being lost in a controversial manner says a lot.


I watched that series. And I didn't come away thinking Penny outplayed Pip much less dominated him. And while I agree Jordan obviously checked Penny at times, Pippen was the main guy. Theres a website that was made to actually prop up MJ that even said Pippen guarded Penny most of time in 96. The website was made to squash the argument that Pippen always guarded the opposition's best scorer.



Look where they finished in MVP, All-NBA, DPOY, and All-Defense teams bro. Go back and read this thread. Roundball Rock plainly lays out why Pip was so highly regarded by his peers from 94-96. Even in the video, Max Kellerman called Pippen the 2nd best player after Olajuwan. And hes no Pippen fan.[/QUOTE]

Fellow Jordan stains, read the above from a legitimate Bulls fan.

Class is in session.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24;14335596]we can pullup cherry-picked quotes for most stars. thats not an argument dude. some of pippen's peers like shaq/barkley/webber don't believe he was that guy. others, like reggie for example, thought he was a great all-around player. it really depends on your source, although by most objective measures, pippen never produced like a top 5 guy. forget best in the world. again, that's with defense & postseason play accounted for. [/QUOTE]
Barkley is on video calling Scottie Pippen the best player in the world in 95.
[QUOTE]
shaq/drob/malone/barkley/jordan are all guys i'd take over pippen. and so would most gm's back then.
[/QUOTE]
Shaq was young, Jordan wasnt there, Pippen got more All NBA voted than Malone and Barkley at the time. That sounds like about 2-3 right? Definitely not 10ish

[QUOTE]That's the reality here, hoops. top 8 is really generous when you start talking impact. bigmen ruled the scene in the 90s, and the only perimeter player who had bigman-like impact was jordan.[/QUOTE]

Bro. This isnt about my opinion or your opinion. It's a matter of how Pippen was regarded at that time. And you surely cant draw conclusions based on how 2 player played in 6 or 7 games.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14335629]Barkley is on video calling Scottie Pippen the best player in the world in 95.

Bro. This isnt about my opinion or your opinion. It's a matter of how Pippen was regarded at that time. And you surely cant draw conclusions based on how 2 player played in 6 or 7 games.[/QUOTE]

barkley also thought pippen was selfish & couldn't lead a team. again, pippen was regarded different by various players. think of another argument, this one isn't working.

my opinion is also backed by facts aka production - playoffs included. yours isn't and that is the difference.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14335599]I'm not sure what Jordan not being on the team has to do with it. The two teams were evenly matched. If Pippen was indeed the better player, then the combination of him and Grant should have proven to be successful. If we go by what you're saying, Pippen+Grant are the better combo than Ewing+Starks and resulted in a win.

But that didn't happen. Chicago lost and Ewing also had a better year the following season. So if he led his team to a higher seed in both 1994 and 1995, put up better numbers or at least comparable, and beat Pippen head to head while performing better, why would we just assume that Pippen > Ewing during that stretch of time?



Okay, I agree that he didn't dominate him, but he did outplay him. Pippen did guard Penny most of the time, which is essentially my point. He didn't shut down Penny and Penny did in fact have the better series. Not to mention, did you watch Penny in the '95 finals?

Penny put up 26/5/8 on 64% TS%. Penny's performance was better than Pippen's 1996 finals and anything Pippen did between 1994-96, on the biggest stage.

That of course is lost in the conversation and completely ignored.



Kellerman is wrong. Pippen definitely doesn't rank higher than Robinson, Shaq, Malone, and MJ from 1994-96. And then there are a host of players who are better if not equal.

One thing you're forgetting is that MJ missed all of 1994 and most of 1995. Shaq missed a significant portion of 1995 and 1996. Penny was a rookie in 1994. And Barkley missed a lot of games as well between the three years (42 in total).

It makes sense that Pippen received more votes looking for various accolades as he was consistently healthy and played full seasons. You have to take that into consideration if you're going to look at voting. But that doesn't automatically mean he was the better player.[/QUOTE]

Again. This is not about your opinion bro. It's about how Pippen was regarded.

Again you want to fall back on stats. Accolades say something totally contrary to what you feel.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14335635]Again. This is not about your opinion bro. It's about how Pippen was regarded.

Again you want to fall back on stats. Accolades say something totally contrary to what you feel.[/QUOTE]

Great, so what this boils down to is cherry picking quotes to suit your argument. Never mind what the data, eye test, and analysis actually says.

You just ignored the fact that when you look at year-by-year voting for accolades, it ignores the context like injuries and players like Penny being a rookie and MJ missing a year and three quarters.

damn, 97 Bulls still spit roasting this Jordan stain per usual



HuggiesNY soiling himself attempting to defend Ordan and his competition at ever teet :oldlol:

[QUOTE=LAmbruh;14335651]damn, 97 Bulls still spit roasting this Jordan stain per usual



HuggiesNY soiling himself attempting to defend Ordan and his competition at ever teet :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

:lol:roll: @--'--,-<

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14335647]Great, so what this boils down to is cherry picking quotes to suit your argument. Never mind what the data, eye test, and analysis actually says.

You just ignored the fact that when you look at year-by-year voting for accolades, it ignores the context like injuries and players like Penny being a rookie and MJ missing a year and three quarters.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's the key part. Barkley and MJ were the two best players in '93 and in the middle of their primes. MJ retires and Barkley has his injuries in the '94 & '95 Regular Seasons. Pippen was not better than Hakeem, D-Rob, Ewing, Malone & Shaq anyways, you add MJ and Barkley to that list and he's just a borderline top 10 player as a 2nd option, who could never be the #1 option on a championship team. If Barkley's healthy in '94 & '95, Pippen doesn't make 1st team All-NBA and is not top 3 in the MVP voting, the forward spot wasn't all that deep either in those years, it's Pippen, Malone & Barkley, the Center position was deep, and only one of them could make 1st team.

Funny how he brings up the Knicks series being close in '94, but ignores that Pippen was way worse against them, even averaged less points than the year before, despite not having MJ there. Grant and Armstrong carried his ass offensively and Pippen quit on his team because Phil didn't trust him to take the last shot. He had 13 points on 5/16 shooting in Game 6 and his team still pushed it to a Game 7, even with Ewing having 26/14 on 9/18 FG.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14335679]Yeah, that's the key part. Barkley and MJ were the two best players in '93 and in the middle of their primes. MJ retires and Barkley has his injuries in the '94 & '95 Regular Seasons. Pippen was not better than Hakeem, D-Rob, Ewing, Malone & Shaq anyways, you add MJ and Barkley to that list and he's just a borderline top 10 player as a 2nd option, who could never be the #1 option on a championship team. If Barkley's healthy in '94 & '95, Pippen doesn't make 1st team All-NBA and is not top 3 in the MVP voting, the forward spot wasn't all that deep either in those years, it's Pippen, Malone & Barkley, the Center position was deep, and only one of them could make 1st team.

Funny how he brings up the Knicks series being close in '94, but ignores that Pippen was way worse against them, even averaged less points than the year before, despite not having MJ there. Grant and Armstrong carried his ass offensively and Pippen quit on his team because Phil didn't trust him to take the last shot. He had 13 points on 5/16 shooting in Game 6 and his team still pushed it to a Game 7, even with Ewing having 26/14 on 9/18 FG.[/QUOTE]

Yea. I'm a big Pippen fan. But singling out total votes for accolades doesn't tell me much because guys like MJ were out, Barkley injured, Penny was a rookie in 1994, Shaq was injured, etc.

Not to mention, there is no mention of Pippen's playoff performances between 1994-96. Kemp was far more impactful. Heck, if we look at the '96 finals, Kemp dominated Rodman in game 1, putting up 32 points on 64% (led all scorers including MJ). Phil then made the switch and had Longley guard Kemp the rest of the series.

We saw what Penny did against Chicago in both 1995 and 1996. And in the 1995 finals against Houson, Penny played extremely well. Penny 1995 performance was better than Pippen in all of his finals except for maybe 1991, but definitely better than anything Pippen had done in [I]all[/I] of the 1994-96 playoffs.

mehya is right, if you're a GM and you have a choice, Pippen definitely isn't your #2 pick. Who would honestly take Pippen over peak David Robinson?

Pippen won MVP votes? Well, David Robinson won an MVP award..... in one of the very years that's being argued here - 1995.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14335686]Yea. I'm a big Pippen fan. But singling out total votes for accolades doesn't tell me much because guys like MJ were out, Barkley injured, Penny was a rookie in 1994, Shaq was injured, etc.

Not to mention, there is no mention of Pippen's playoff performances between 1994-96. Kemp was far more impactful. Heck, if we look at the '96 finals, Kemp dominated Rodman in game 1, putting up 32 points on 64% (led all scorers including MJ). Phil then made the switch and had Longley guard Kemp the rest of the series.

We saw what Penny did against Chicago in both 1995 and 1996. And in the 1995 finals against Houson, Penny played extremely well. Penny 1995 performance was better than Pippen in all of his finals except for maybe 1991, but definitely better than anything Pippen had done in [I]all[/I] of the 1994-96 playoffs.

mehya is right, if you're a GM and you have a choice, Pippen definitely isn't your #2 pick. Who would honestly take Pippen over peak David Robinson?

Pippen won MVP votes? Well, David Robinson won an MVP award..... in one of the very years that's being argued here - 1995.[/QUOTE]

#2 is just asinine :facepalm . I don't care how good Pippen was defensively, he's nowhere near top 5 for that era with how mediocre his offensive impact actually was.

guys, i though players knew best :confusedshrug:

why are folks so triggered by Rodmans take :oldlol:

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14335647]Great, so what this boils down to is cherry picking quotes to suit your argument. Never mind what the data, eye test, and analysis actually says.

You just ignored the fact that when you look at year-by-year voting for accolades, it ignores the context like injuries and players like Penny being a rookie and MJ missing a year and three quarters.[/QUOTE]

Ok. So if he had great stats (even historic in 95) finished top 5 in both MVP and DPOY, 2 of three years in question, led the NBA in All-NBA votes in 94, and we've pulled up quotes from his peers, and articles of what was being said at the time, Im supposed to disregard that for how you feel? Oh and overlook my eye test?

What is everyone basing their assessment on?

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14335679]Yeah, that's the key part. Barkley and MJ were the two best players in '93 and in the middle of their primes. MJ retires and Barkley has his injuries in the '94 & '95 Regular Seasons. Pippen was not better than Hakeem, D-Rob, Ewing, Malone & Shaq anyways, you add MJ and Barkley to that list and he's just a borderline top 10 player as a 2nd option, who could never be the #1 option on a championship team. If Barkley's healthy in '94 & '95, Pippen doesn't make 1st team All-NBA and is not top 3 in the MVP voting, the forward spot wasn't all that deep either in those years, it's Pippen, Malone & Barkley, the Center position was deep, and only one of them could make 1st team.

Funny how he brings up the Knicks series being close in '94, but ignores that Pippen was way worse against them, even averaged less points than the year before, despite not having MJ there. Grant and Armstrong carried his ass offensively and Pippen quit on his team because Phil didn't trust him to take the last shot. He had 13 points on 5/16 shooting in Game 6 and his team still pushed it to a Game 7, even with Ewing having 26/14 on 9/18 FG.[/QUOTE]

Pippen got more votes than Malone. And he was healthy. Most people felt Malone was better than Barkley.

You guys are incredible. In this very thread. Roundball Rock showed articles saying Pippen was the front runner for MVP before HE GOT HURT IN 96. But that doesn't matter. Only Barkelys and Shaqs and Penny's injuries matter. Lol. Hell Jordan is now so great, he doesnt even have to play in the league and he still gets a top 5 ranking!!! This is insane.

How can a guy that you feel that the guy that is less talented, be held to a higher standard than the guys you feel are more talented? Shouldnt that be the other way around?

[QUOTE=LAmbruh;14335651]damn, 97 Bulls still spit roasting this Jordan stain per usual



HuggiesNY soiling himself attempting to defend Ordan and his competition at ever teet :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
:(

Careful. Or else he might shift back to spamming trash with his 3ball and his trada7029 dup.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14335704]#2 is just asinine :facepalm . I don't care how good Pippen was defensively, he's nowhere near top 5 for that era with how mediocre his offensive impact actually was.[/QUOTE]

Well, the title says 93, 94, and 95. But Rodman actually stated 93-94 and 94-95 seasons. Pippen was definitely top 5 then.

[QUOTE=Pip' N Rodman;14335667]:lol:roll: @--'--,-<[/QUOTE]
:lebronamazed::dancin


LETS F*CKING GOOOOOOO:hammertime:

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14335704]#2 is just asinine :facepalm . I don't care how good Pippen was defensively, he's nowhere near top 5 for that era with how mediocre his offensive impact actually was.[/QUOTE]
Ppg numbahs again? Goddamn...

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14335755]Pippen got more votes than Malone. And he was healthy. [B]Most people felt Malone was better than Barkley. [/B]

You guys are incredible. In this very thread. Roundball Rock showed articles saying Pippen was the front runner for MVP before HE GOT HURT IN 96. But that doesn't matter. Only Barkelys and Shaqs and Penny's injuries matter. Lol. Hell Jordan is now so great, he doesnt even have to play in the league and he still gets a top 5 ranking!!! This is insane.

How can a guy that you feel ithe guy that is less talented be held to a higher standard than the guys you feel are more talented? Shouldnt that be the other way around?[/QUOTE]

Barkley was better at his peak but Malone's longevity can't be denied. Chuck was better in '93 though.

Pippen was not a front runner for MVP, please stop it :facepalm . You're going off the deep end here.

Pippen was not a top 5 player of the 90s, he was not a top 3 player in '94 nor '95, you can't just base that off a couple articles or some nit-picked advanced stats or All-NBA/MVP votes. MVP doesn't = best player to begin with, and you can't overlook the unique circumstances in those years, you also can't overlook Pippen's Playoff production. Chris Paul is likely going to finish top 5 in MVP voting this season, does ANYONE here think he's even top 10 in the league right now? Was Steve Nash even a top 3 player when he won his MVPs in 2005 and 2006? Was Dirk the best player in the league in 2007?

[QUOTE=Axe;14335769]Ppg numbahs again? Goddamn...[/QUOTE]

Not just ppg, scoring efficiency too... Pippen does not stack up well AT ALL, look at all the mediocre Playoff runs he's had with the GOAT on his side.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14335770]Barkley was better at his peak but Malone's longevity can't be denied. Chuck was better in '93 though.

Pippen was not a front runner for MVP, please stop it :facepalm . You're going off the deep end here.

Pippen was not a top 5 player of the 90s, he was not a top 3 player in '94 nor '95, you can't just base that off a couple articles or some nit-picked advanced stats or All-NBA/MVP votes. MVP doesn't = best player to begin with, and you can't overlook the unique circumstances in those years, you also can't overlook Pippen's Playoff production. Chris Paul is likely going to finish top 5 in MVP voting this season, does ANYONE here think he's even top 10 in the league right now? Was Steve Nash even a top 3 player when he won his MVPs in 2005 and 2006? Was Dirk the best player in the league in 2007?



Not just ppg, scoring efficiency too... Pippen does not stack up well AT ALL, look at all the mediocre Playoff runs he's had with the GOAT on his side.[/QUOTE]

I think you guys are caught up in emotion. Were talking about 3 years here. 94, 95, and 96. The whole of the seasons. Not just 6-7 games.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14335686]mehya is right, if you're a GM and you have a choice, Pippen definitely isn't your #2 pick. Who would honestly take Pippen over peak David Robinson?

Pippen won MVP votes? Well, David Robinson won an MVP award..... in one of the very years that's being argued here - 1995.[/QUOTE]

no gm with any sense would lol. add shaq, hakeem, malone & barkley into the pot. truth is you can find a number of quotes talking up drob, especially in 95. he was the mvp so naturally fans associate that with "the best". ditto with playoff hakeem & shaq. like you also mentioned, barkley missed a quarter of the season however still put up superior numbers, impact & playoff production.

idk. from my vantage point the debate is loaded with revisionism. no point arguing opinion vs facts.

I do remember a Pip for MVP buzz in 96 before he got injured. I don't recall if it was a huge national discussion about it, but I do recall either a few articles about it or it got mentioned by broadcasters during some nationally televised Bulls game. How much of a thing I can't recall, this shit is 25 years old. But I do recall even MJ( by no means short on ego) himself pushing a Pippen4MVP thing at one point. It was a conversation that lost steam once Scottie got injured, but I do know he was damn good up to that point.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14335898]I do remember a Pip for MVP buzz in 96 before he got injured. I don't recall if it was a huge national discussion about it, but I do recall either a few articles about it or it got mentioned by broadcasters during some nationally televised Bulls game. How much of a thing I can't recall, this shit is 25 years old. But I do recall even MJ( by no means short on ego) himself pushing a Pippen4MVP thing at one point. It was a conversation that lost steam once Scottie got injured, but I do know he was damn good up to that point.[/QUOTE]
That's the funny thing. Every players gets a pass due to injury but Pippen. I cant quite figure out where all this vitriol for Pippen is coming from. I mean why does everybody get a pass for being injured but Pippen?

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14335930]That's the funny thing. Every players gets a pass due to injury but Pippen. I cant quite figure out where all this vitriol for Pippen is coming from. I mean why does everybody get a pass for being injured but Pippen?[/QUOTE]

It's mostly coming from one compulsive MJ nut who can't seem to let MJs greatness stand on it's own merits without bashing his teammates, notably Scottie. The sad outcome is, at least on this poor excuse for a basketball discussion board, Pip has become a lighting rod between the MJ and Bron stan camps.

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14335352]Lebrons never played for a team that was even capable of winning 35 games without him

Levels to this GOAT shit my man.[/QUOTE]

Newsflash, healthy Wade took the Heat to the 2nd round, game 7 without lebron or Bosh..... 2016

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14335898]I do remember a Pip for MVP buzz in 96 before he got injured. I don't recall if it was a huge national discussion about it, but I do recall either a few articles about it or it got mentioned by broadcasters during some nationally televised Bulls game. How much of a thing I can't recall, this shit is 25 years old. But I do recall even MJ( by no means short on ego) himself pushing a Pippen4MVP thing at one point. It was a conversation that lost steam once Scottie got injured, but I do know he was damn good up to that point.[/QUOTE]

There's never a moment in 1995-'96 season were Pippen was remotely close to being considered for MVP. Not the beginning, not the middle, and certainly not the end.

A Pippen stan. What do you know... lol

Now i have seen everything

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14335930]That's the funny thing. Every players gets a pass due to injury but Pippen. I cant quite figure out where all this vitriol for Pippen is coming from. I mean why does everybody get a pass for being injured but Pippen?[/QUOTE]

Pippen wasn't injured during the the '95-'96 season.

[QUOTE=RogueBorg;14335970]There's never a moment in 1995-'96 season were Pippen was remotely close to being considered for MVP. Not the beginning, not the middle, and certainly not the end.[/QUOTE]

I never said it was a serious discussion, only that I recall it being part of the vernacular in the first half of the season. It may have been jumpstarted by MJ himself campaigning for it, but It was out there. Like there were whispers early in the year that Penny was the best player before Shaq returned. I recall those comments being made during games at times. It's not something I'm conjuring up out of thin air. Again, in retrospect it may seem silly but I'm not speaking about things that weren't discussed at the time, even if only casually.

[QUOTE=RogueBorg;14335975]Pippen wasn't injured during the the '95-'96 season.[/QUOTE]

Sure he was

[url]https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1996-06-18-9606180023-story,amp.html[/url]

Pippen just played through the injuries. Most people that watched the Bulls saw how those injuries effected him toward the last 1/3 of the season.

Heres another link where Pippen said he was banged up the last 4 months of the 95-96 season.

[url]https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.spokesman.com/stories/1996/jul/03/injuries-affect-pippens-pep-in-small-way/%3famp-content=amp[/url]