1994 Pippen should have been mvp

[QUOTE=tpols;14028990]that's what people miss.

Reggie was an above average defender in the playoffs especially man defense. He wasnt a guy you could pick on.

So the gap between the two on defense wasnt as big as it was for [B]offense... where scottie was very poor.[/B]

Bad efficiency... no volume... so unclutch a ROOKIE is tasked with taking the last second biggest shot of the game over him.

it just is what it is....[/QUOTE]
:coleman:

Tpols there's now way to read this other than you saying Pip was bad at offense.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14029032]0-3 in Game 7 of the ECF is clutch? 1-4 in the ECF, 0-1 in the finals. "Winning Time" ended with the Pacers losing.

Chris Paul is 1st in o rating, Miller 2, D. Jordan 3. The real GOATs! MJ 20th, LeBron is 39th. Shaq 106, Kobe 174. Meanwhile when Reggie actually played coaches were saying he wasn't even the best player on his team.[/QUOTE]
Chris Paul actually is one of the best offensive players of all time. ESPN ranking him 40th was blasphemy. I believe backpicks had him 20th or 19th which is probably about right. I could see him a little higher even. He's probably the least flawed player I've ever seen from a skillset standpoint.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14029032]0-3 in Game 7 of the ECF is clutch? 1-4 in the ECF, 0-1 in the finals. "Winning Time" ended with the Pacers losing..[/QUOTE]

Winning time: Reggie Miller vs the New York Knicks was about their battles with whom? Did they win against the Knicks in the end? Have you even watched the documentary or are you still waiting for them to make an Espn 30 for 30 about Pippen :roll:

I don't see how he can possibly counter 3ball.

3ball is a legitimate sociopath. You can't get to him, except when you rank LeBron or edit/delete his threads.

Roundball_Rock is a much worse, pretentious version of jlauber.

Miller was a shooter. That was it. He was great at it but he offered nothing as a passer or creator (part of offense). Nothing on defense. Nothing on the glass. He was 21/3/3 for his prime. When his shot was off, he was useless (as his team would learn in many key games). He lacked the skill set to handle a #1 option work load. How many screens can you run to get a guy who can't get open open? He took his 14 shots a game but there was always Smits, Person, Schrempf, or Rose there to be #1 in usage--and Miller sometimes was #3 or #4 in usage.

So he is the second GOAT offensive player ever but his coaches couldn't figure it out? Opposing coaches couldn't? Guys on the internet 25 years later know better?

Miller was Klay without the defense, without the scale (Miller's "efficiency" wouldn't hold up at 18 shots a game, for example).

[QUOTE]Chris Paul actually is one of the best offensive players of all time. ESPN ranking him 40th was blasphemy. I believe backpicks had him 20th or 19th which is probably about right[/QUOTE]

True but is he the offensive GOAT, as this stat suggests?

Here is some insight on Reggie from KBlaze in a thread weeks ago:

[QUOTE][B]At no point in the 90s would a single person outside his home market call Reggie the best wing after Jordan. You can find articles from Reggies prime with local writers saying Detlef(the 6th man) was the teams best player.

Coaches were picking dudes like Mookie Blaylock.[/B]

Stockton was more respected than Reggie.

[B]Pippen, Drexler, Grant Hill, Mitch and others would all have been taken over Reggie by every team[/B] in the nba. The Pacers didn’t thrive till[B] Larry Brown got there and told Reggie he wasn’t a superstar type who could win trying to take over games and made them more of an ensemble team[/B]. If I posted what Larry Brown said he had to sit Reggie down and tell him ish would be calling me a hater like I said it......[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]I could also ask [B]Larry Brown, George Karl, and Phil Jackson all of whom said at the time Reggie was his teams second or third best player. You ask nba coaches in like 94 to pick Mckey or Miller Reggie probably won’t win that[/B]. The only reason that sounds odd today is you not having been there to see lots of basketball lifers not be that impressed. [B]28 years old dead prime and the coaches take Mookie and John Starks. He ends up behind 6 guards In the East alone but magically 25 years later he’s I suppose the best guard in the league with Jordan retired[/B].....[/QUOTE]

Quotes from 1994 and 1995--right in the middle of Reggie's prime:

[QUOTE]It’s along the lines of asking peak Draymond or Klay....except 25 years ago they wouldn’t make full use of what guys like Klay could do. And Klay is a great defender. So it’s not exactly that but it’s along those lines. I’d take Reggie for today’s game no doubt. For 1993? I’ll just give you what the coaches said....

[B]Bulls coach Phil Jackson voted for McKey for the All-Star team, saying: "He's their best player. He's the reason they are where they are."
[/B]
And Indiana's defense starts with Derrick McKey.

"He's as good a defender as there is in the league," coach Larry Brown said. "He's a great all-around player. I don't know where we'd be without him."

"He's the best. He defends every night. He does whatever we need him to do to win," Brown said.

[B]While Brown and teammates call McKey the most important player on the team[/B], McKey was characteristically modest about his play following the win over Charlotte.

Derrick [B]McKey has settled in with the Pacers and become the catalyst through which all offensive plays are run[/B]. "People used to tell me Derrick didn't come to play every night," said [Larry Brown]. "He may not have come to play offensively, but he's come to play defensively in every single game I've seen. [B]He's the best all-around player I've ever coached[/B]."[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Hes one of several pacers that players, coaches, and writers flatly said were the best player on teams Reggie was on in his prime. What you feel about that with nerd stats a quarter century later obviously was not factored in.[/QUOTE]

[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480370-After-Jordan-who-was-the-BEST-perimeter-player-in-the-90s/page4"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480370-After-Jordan-who-was-the-BEST-perimeter-player-in-the-90s/page4[/URL]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14029059]Here is some insight on Reggie from KBlaze in a thread weeks ago:





Quotes from 1994 and 1995--right in the middle of Reggie's prime:





[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480370-After-Jordan-who-was-the-BEST-perimeter-player-in-the-90s/page4"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480370-After-Jordan-who-was-the-BEST-perimeter-player-in-the-90s/page4[/URL][/QUOTE]

Dude cant formulate his own arguments :roll:

Already had a back and forth with Kblaze about that many years ago and seeing that you love to dig out old threads how about searching for my replies?

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14029064]Dude cant formulate his own arguments :roll:[/QUOTE]

3ball is worth reading.

Andre Roberson :roll:

The irony here? When Miller was asked who would want to be among the Dream Team III players he, like 5 of 11 players, selected Pippen. Why did Miller want to be Pippen? His quote was something like "Because he can score 4 points and dominate a game."

Gee, why would Reggie Miller admire a player who could dominate without scoring? It is obvious why.

More from KBlaze (bold added by me in those quotes):

[QUOTE]And yet....it takes people who weren’t there....to run some equations....to see it. Why do you think that is?

[B]Why do you think people who played and coached for decades watched him do it from feet away and didn’t think it was that special....when your blind numbers 25 years later says it was[/B]?

When [B]his coach is trying to defend him after one of his many many many many offensive no shows[/B] and says:

"I know people are going to say Reggie didn't do this or that, but I've always said it's a team thing for him," [B]said Brown. "He has trouble getting his own shot, beating people off the dribble. He's not what people make him out to be."

What do your numbers understand that he doesn’t?[/B]

His coach tells you...lay off....he’s not some super scorer who is gonna bring it every night. Stop expecting so much. That’s said in defense of him.

Why?

Because [B]Reggie would disappear all the time. You would forget he was there for 30 minutes as his team struggled to score. The narrative is that he would just turn it on and win them all these games late....except he won exactly
one big playoff series in 19 years[/B]. [B]People remember 6 things from ESPN and read some numbers on an irrelevant 25 points in 47 minutes while being destroyed in a series and make up whole new narratives over the shooting percentages on his largely ineffective totals. The people watching it closest were not nearly as impressed as your calculators are now.[/B]

[B]Reggie Millers career was usually 125 screens for 16-25 points and going home when games started to matter and players who could actually bring the ball across half court under a press or just post up and get a shot started to exert more influence.[/B]

[B]Reggie was nice. And he would look a lot nicer today. But there’s a reason people weren’t blown away[/B]. Those advanced numbers did not translate to a particularly dominant individual. He has moments to point to like every other hall of famer.....but generally speaking he wasn’t gonna matter when it was time to do shit worth remembering.

We remember 8 in 9. But it was of no real consequence. Like everything else you remember him doing.[/QUOTE]

This happened often. A lot of 10, 15, 20 point games where Reggie scored points but did nothing else that mattered on the court.

He would be a monster in today's game, though.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14029070]The irony here? When Miller was asked who would want to be among the Dream Team III players he, like 5 of 11 players, selected Pippen. Why did Miller want to be Pippen? His quote was something like "Because he can score 4 points and dominate a game."

Gee, why would Reggie Miller admire a player who could dominate without scoring? It is obvious why.

More from KBlaze (bold added by me in those quotes):



This happened often. A lot of 10, 15, 20 point games where Reggie scored points but did nothing else that mattered on the court.

He would be a monster in today's game, though.[/QUOTE]

You could say this shit about a ton of players because they had bad games that get overshadowed by their greater ones.

On the topic of disappearing what are you thoughts about the Migraine game or him disappearing on the last 1.8 seconds of a crucial playoff game :roll:

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14029076]You could say this shit about a ton of players because they had bad games that get overshadowed by their greater ones.

On the topic of disappearing what are you thoughts about the Migraine game or him disappearing on the last 1.8 seconds of a crucial playoff game :roll:[/QUOTE]

Are you still melting down? You ****ing loser. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14029064]Dude cant formulate his own arguments :roll:[/QUOTE]

the guy is so played out he has to run to kblaze to make any sense. :lol

but the problem is blaze is a bulls stan who seees reality through those rose tinted glasses.

anybody saying reggie miller wasnt impacting the game just because he wasnt doing a fancy dribble or dime doesnt deserve a seat at the table of this debate.

The man was dropping elite volume on elite efficiency while pouring in the clutchest of buckets and spacing decoying for everybody else.

It's an open and shut case to anyone with an objective eye.

So his one calling card was scoring (21 PPG, evidently that is some GOAT-level # now as goal posts move) and being "clutch." So what happened in the biggest games in series that mattered?

Compare this to what Miller did when he had something to play for (i.e., had real pressure):

Game 6 94' ECF: 27/4/4 on 38% (with a trip to the finals on the line)
Game 7 94' ECF: 25/2/0 on 41%

Game 7 95' ECSF: 29/1/3 on 56%
Game 6 95' ECF: 36/7/2 on 68% (to stave off elimination)
Game 7 95' ECF: 12/4/0 on 39%

Game 6 98' ECF: 8/2/0 on 15% (elimination game)
Game 7 98' ECF: 22/0/4 on 54%

Game 6 99' ECF: 8/3/4 on 17% (Pacers eliminated)

Game 5 00' Finals: 25/4/6 on 58%
Game 6 00' Finals: 25/1/3 on 42%

8 points two years in a row in ECF elimination games.

At least Klay can defend the opposing team's best player when his shot is off. Other inferior scorers can provide some creation and passing. Miller? If he is shooting 15% or 38% it is game over.

When Miller was going 25/2/0 Ewing was going 24/22/7 in the same Game 7. Guess which team won and went to the finals?

[QUOTE=Smoke117;14029079]Are you still melting down? You ****ing loser. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Is this dude really gonna talk about meltdowns when basically every reply you have is a meltdown :roll:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14029082]So his one calling card was scoring (21 PPG, evidently that is some GOAT-level # now as goal posts move) and being "clutch." So what happened in the biggest games in series that mattered?

Compare this to what Miller did when he had something to play for (i.e., had real pressure):

Game 6 94' ECF: 27/4/4 on 38% (with a trip to the finals on the line)
Game 7 94' ECF: 25/2/0 on 41%

Game 7 95' ECSF: 29/1/3 on 56%
Game 6 95' ECF: 36/7/2 on 68% (to stave off elimination)
Game 7 95' ECF: 12/4/0 on 39%

Game 6 98' ECF: 8/2/0 on 15% (elimination game)
Game 7 98' ECF: 22/0/4 on 54%

Game 6 99' ECF: 8/3/4 on 17% (Pacers eliminated)

Game 5 00' Finals: 25/4/6 on 58%
Game 6 00' Finals: 25/1/3 on 42%

8 points two years in a row in ECF elimination games.

At least Klay can defend the opposing team's best player when his shot is off. Other inferior scorers can provide some creation and passing. Miller? If he is shooting 15% or 38% it is game over.

[B]When Miller was going 25/2/0 Ewing was going 24/22/7 in the same Game 7. Guess which team won?[/B][/QUOTE]
Well, Ewing is top 5 all time.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14029084]Well, Ewing is top 5 all time.[/QUOTE]

True. :oldlol: Ewing>Miller>Kemp>Iggy>Pippen/LeBron.

[QUOTE]Are you still melting down? You ****ing loser. [/QUOTE]

:lol He is acting like limited Reggie didn't routinely disappear in games. He couldn't create shots on his own. He didn't defend. He didn't rebound. He didn't pass. It isn't hard to see how he could be contained. Why does he think Indiana need to rely on Rik Smits, Chuck Person, Schrempf, and Rose so much? Miller was this "alpha alpha" GOAT-level scorer and the guy was operating on Hornacek or Hersey Hawkins usage?

It is obvious why his coaches and opposing coaches viewed him as they did.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14029082]So his one calling card was scoring (21 PPG, evidently that is some GOAT-level # now as goal posts move) and being "clutch." So what happened in the biggest games in series that mattered?

Compare this to what Miller did when he had something to play for (i.e., had real pressure):

Game 6 94' ECF: 27/4/4 on 38% (with a trip to the finals on the line)
Game 7 94' ECF: 25/2/0 on 41%

Game 7 95' ECSF: 29/1/3 on 56%
Game 6 95' ECF: 36/7/2 on 68% (to stave off elimination)
Game 7 95' ECF: 12/4/0 on 39%

Game 6 98' ECF: 8/2/0 on 15% (elimination game)
Game 7 98' ECF: 22/0/4 on 54%

Game 6 99' ECF: 8/3/4 on 17% (Pacers eliminated)

Game 5 00' Finals: 25/4/6 on 58%
Game 6 00' Finals: 25/1/3 on 42%

8 points two years in a row in ECF elimination games.

At least Klay can defend the opposing team's best player when his shot is off. Other inferior scorers can provide some creation and passing. Miller? If he is shooting 15% or 38% it is game over.

When Miller was going 25/2/0 Ewing was going 24/22/7 in the same Game 7. Guess which team won?[/QUOTE]

So Miller defending Jordan never happened? He got praise and had the good Jordan defender rep because of his work in that seven game series. Even Jordan himself praised his annoying handchecking physical defense. Every matchup with a star shooting guard he relished going one on one with them. Heck they are youtube videos of him taking the challenge of defending Prime Grant Hill because Mckey's skills has fallen off a cliff at the time and they needed someone to matchup and surely Mullin and Rose are not better options.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14029094]True. :oldlol: Ewing>Miller>Kemp>Iggy>Pippen/LeBron.



:lol He is acting like limited Reggie didn't routinely disappear in games. He couldn't create shots on his own. He didn't defend. He didn't rebound. He didn't pass. It isn't hard to see how he could be contained. Why does he think Indiana need to rely on Rik Smits, Chuck Person, Schrempf, and Rose so much? Miller was this "alpha alpha" GOAT-level scorer and the guy was operating on Hornacek or Hersey Hawkins usage.[/QUOTE]

Are you acting that Pippen didnt routinely disappear in games? Remember that 1.8 seconds :roll:

The second GOAT offensive player, right?

1994 ECF: Miller 25, Ewing 22, Smits 16, Oakley 14. Only 2.6 APG, though.
1995 ECSF: Miller/Smits 22.6 each, Ewing 19, Starks 17. 3.0 APG.
1995 ECF: Shaq 27, Miller 26, Penny 20, Smits 18. 1.1 APG.
1998 ECF: MJ 32, Miller 17, Pippen 17, Smits 16. 2.0 APG.
1999 ECF: Houston 19, Sprewell 18, Johnson 17, Miller 16. 2.2 APG.
2000 ECF: Miller 22, Sprewell 20, Rose 19, Johnson 13. 1.8 APG.
2000 Finals: Shaq 38, Miller 24, Rose 23, Kobe 16. 3.7 APG.

This is Earth-shattering offensive production? The "average of averages" here are 22 with 2.3 APG. GOAT offensive player? That O rating, huh?

Prime Miller in the playoffs averaged 25 PPG from the WNBA three point line; 22.5 PPG from the NBA line. Keep that in mind when reading those 1995 numbers.

His playoff number jump was driven by playing much higher minutes in the playoffs.

Seeing that you love to dig into old threads how about searching for a quote where I overrate Miller? Putting words in peoples mouths wont make you credible unless you prove it.

Worst I probably had was about Paul Pierce but imagine seeing Miller at 39 years old destroy the Celtics in 2 playoff games (28 points plus the dagger and 33 points in a blowout) While trigerring the whole Celtic team with his tactics and you would understand why I would rather have Miller than Pierce.

[QUOTE=tpols;14029080]the guy is so played out he has to run to kblaze to make any sense. :lol

but the problem is blaze is a bulls stan who seees reality through those rose tinted glasses.

anybody saying reggie miller wasnt impacting the game just because he wasnt doing a fancy dribble or dime doesnt deserve a seat at the table of this debate.

The man was dropping elite volume on elite efficiency while pouring in the clutchest of buckets and spacing decoying for everybody else.

It's an open and shut case to anyone with an objective eye.[/QUOTE]

Elite volume? Reggie was never that greatbof a scorer. Elite was close to 30 during his prime not about 20. He was way too dependent on teams play to get his game going, because well he he couldn't dribble fancy. The reality is that Reggie was one of the greatest off ball players ever, but it was the only dimension to his game.
The overrating of his game is beyond retarded.

[QUOTE=Overdrive;14029303]Elite volume? Reggie was never that greatbof a scorer. Elite was close to 30 during his prime not about 20. He was way too dependent on teams play to get his game going, because well he he couldn't dribble fancy. The reality is that Reggie was one of the greatest off ball players ever, but it was the only dimension to his game.
The overrating of his game is beyond retarded.[/QUOTE]
Reggie was a better playoff scorer than everyone in the era except Jordan and Hakeem.

Reggie Miller playoff scoring(90 - 95): 34.4 per 100 poss / .628 TS%

Barkley playoff scoring (89 - 95): 32 per 100 poss / .578 TS%

It really isn’t even a given Hakeem was a better scorer in the playoffs. He’s actually worse in all honesty. Only Jordan was on Millers level as an offensive player in the postseason. Then baby Shaq when Miller was out of prime.

[QUOTE=Overdrive;14029303]Elite volume? Reggie was never that greatbof a scorer. Elite was close to 30 during his prime not about 20. He was way too dependent on teams play to get his game going, because well he he couldn't dribble fancy. The reality is that Reggie was one of the greatest off ball players ever, but it was the only dimension to his game.
The overrating of his game is beyond retarded.[/QUOTE]

You call Miller overrated then proceed to underrate his game. He got 24.6ppg .514 fg% .414 3p% at his peak which very few players has done at those percentages without the help of modern no handcheck freedom of movement rules.

Too dependent on team play to get going? Non pacers fans always mistake playing the right way for the benefit of the team as a limitation to his game not knowing he could go one on one and "dribble fancy" if he wanted to which he did when they had average teams in the early 90s and early 2000s when they broke up their core. There are tons of clips of these on youtube its just that he was the Goat offball player so he decided to focus on his strengths.

Miller had an elite face up game buoyed by a very quick first step that enabled him to shoot his runner, go all the way to the basket or draw fouls. At his peak he was going close to 8 times a game to the line good for 9th in the league and ahead of guys like Olajuwon, Drexler, Dominique etc.

He had these types of moves in his arsenal but I guess posters saw too much of "Uncle Reggie" when he was about to retire so he never got credit for it.

[video=youtube_share;JH-atJOyWDY]https://youtu.be/JH-atJOyWDY[/video]

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14029323]Miller had an elite face up game buoyed by a very quick first step that enabled him to shoot his runner, go all the way to the basket or draw fouls. At his peak he was going close to 8 times a game to the line good for 9th in the league and ahead of guys like Olajuwon, Drexler, Dominique etc.[/QUOTE]

true that. you cant really get to the line that often unless youre a serious scorer... it means youre constantly beating and tricking the defense.

or youre just too damn good and they have to foul you just to throw your rhythm off.

[QUOTE=999Guy;14029314]Reggie Miller playoff scoring(90 - 95): 34.4 per 100 poss / .628 TS%

Barkley playoff scoring (89 - 95): 32 per 100 poss / .578 TS%

It really isn’t even a given Hakeem was a better scorer in the playoffs. He’s actually worse in all honesty. Only Jordan was on Millers level as an offensive player in the postseason. Then baby Shaq when Miller was out of prime.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14029321]You call Miller overrated then proceed to underrate his game. He got 24.6ppg .514 fg% .414 3p% at his peak which very few players has done at those percentages without the help of modern no handcheck freedom of movement rules.

Too dependent on team play to get going? Non pacers fans always mistake playing the right way for the benefit of the team as a limitation to his game not knowing he could go one on one and "dribble fancy" if he wanted to which he did when they had average teams in the early 90s and early 2000s when they broke up their core. There are tons of clips of these on youtube its just that he was the Goat offball player so he decided to focus on his strengths.[/QUOTE]

The right way for the benefit of the team? If Reggie was that great of a scorer, an efficient one at that, why wouldn't the team hand him more shots? Raise the pace for more possessions. Acting like Reggie was an AT elite scorer is revisionist history. Nobody thought like that back then.

[QUOTE=tpols;14029329]true that. you cant really get to the line that often unless youre a serious scorer... it means youre constantly beating and tricking the defense.

or youre just too damn good and they have to foul you just to throw your rhythm off.[/QUOTE]

[quote]
7. Reggie Miller
9 of 16

Easily one of the best three-point shooters ever to step onto an NBA court, Reggie Miller also made quite the career out of flailing his wiry frame around at any given moment.

Having that wiry frame gave Miller the advantage when it came to flopping since he could easily sell someone as skinny as himself getting pushed around by just about anyone.

Miller even revolutionized a different style of flopping by perfecting the leg kick. The leg kick basically involves you going up for a normal jump shot, but then sticking your leg to make contact with the defender nearest to you to get the automatic foul.

Worst instance of flopping: Gus Johnson calls Reggie out[/quote]

[url]https://bleacherreport.com/articles/869637-15-worst-floppers-in-nba-history[/url]

[QUOTE=Overdrive;14029333]The right way for the benefit of the team? If Reggie was that great of a scorer, an efficient one at that, why wouldn't the team hand him more shots? Raise the pace for more possessions. Acting like Reggie was an AT elite scorer is revisionist history. Nobody thought like that back then.





[url]https://bleacherreport.com/articles/869637-15-worst-floppers-in-nba-history[/url][/QUOTE]

Maybe because other players on the team need their touches as well to be effective and provide good chemistry for the team. Would Smits be effective if Miller takes away his shots? Or Mark Jackson if he tries those "fancy dribble moves" and take the ball away from him?

Never said he was elite just better than you think he was.

Raise the pace for more possessions? There’s no advantage to that. You’re never gonna have more possessions than the other team.

[QUOTE=Overdrive;14029333]The right way for the benefit of the team? If Reggie was that great of a scorer, an efficient one at that, why wouldn't the team hand him more shots? [B]Raise the pace for more possessions.[/B] Acting like Reggie was an AT elite scorer is revisionist history. Nobody thought like that back then.





[url]https://bleacherreport.com/articles/869637-15-worst-floppers-in-nba-history[/url][/QUOTE] Responding to bolded: I think you mean hand over the ball more. Pace does not factor in plays designed for that specific player. Pace just takes in # of team possessions and # of opponent's possessions in a game of 48 minutes. It is just purely a estimate of # of possessions for a team.

I think you meant usage rate.

[QUOTE]Raise the pace for more possessions? There’s no advantage to that. You’re never gonna have more possessions than the other team.[/QUOTE] I agree.

[video=youtube_share;Cgk24LrIeGk]https://youtu.be/Cgk24LrIeGk[/video]

Is this a player that is too dependent on team play to get going?

Shows his full arsenal with stepbacks, fadeaways, faceup drives runners etc.

Miller wasn't on the very shortlist in the 90s, but that only means the 90s were great.

It's reasonable to take Richmond over him, especially in a vacuum, because Richmond was one of the game's best players.

But Reggie was great. Terrifying to play against, and not just because a little me saw him do something crazy against us.

I saw an older him go off against the Nets, taking it to the rim in OT. Miller can stand against Ray and all the guards of that class.

[QUOTE=999Guy;14029338]Raise the pace for more possessions? There’s no advantage to that. You’re never gonna have more possessions than the other team.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Turbo Slayer;14029339]Responding to bolded: I think you mean hand over the ball more. Pace does not factor in plays designed for that specific player. Pace just takes in # of team possessions and # of opponent's possessions in a game of 48 minutes. It is just purely a estimate of # of possessions for a team.

I think you meant usage rate.

I agree.[/QUOTE]

No, I did not mean usage rate. I meant possessions. If you have someone so great that he could score alot of points on high efficiency if he had more possessions I'd raise them. Most teams become less effective on more possessions. It's a legitimate strategy and quite some teams thoughout history used it. Raising usage takes away shots from teammates.

[QUOTE]If Reggie was that great of a scorer, an efficient one at that, why wouldn't the team hand him more shots? Raise the pace for more possessions. Acting like Reggie was an AT elite scorer is revisionist history. Nobody thought like that back then.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. His team knew he couldn't handle real #1 option usage. He was 21 PPG with 3 APG for his prime. These are not elite numbers. Players with more offensive production get ripped as offensive players (including in this thread) by these Reggie advocates so why are we praising 21/3?

Reggie was a great shooter but that was it. He did not have the skill set to be a real #1 option and he couldn't impact games via passing/creating, defense, rebounding, etc. There is a reason he never finished even top 10 in MVP despite theoretically being the #1 option on a perennial contender.

[QUOTE]Raising usage takes away shots from teammates.[/QUOTE]

Which would mean taking shots away from Rik Smits, Chuck Person, Detlef Schrempf, or Jalen Rose. His team preferred those guys getting higher usage than the supposed all-time great offensive player...but Reggie43 and tpols know better than Larry Brown, Larry Bird, et al.

[QUOTE=Overdrive;14029410]No, I did not mean usage rate. I meant possessions. If you have someone so great that he could score alot of points on high efficiency if he had more possessions I'd raise them. Most teams become less effective on more possessions. It's a legitimate strategy and quite some teams thoughout history used it. Raising usage takes away shots from teammates.[/QUOTE]No.

Why do Robinson and Shaq get a pass for going from 30 PPG to 20 PPG and from 29 PPG to 21 PPG, respectively, in the playoffs? Pippen went from 22 PPG to 23 PPG (yes, the guy who scored slightly [I]more[/I] is the one getting ripped) and people are jumping up and down about that constituting choking. So playoff production is paramount--but the guys who shrunk to 65% or so of their scoring en route to losing in first round upsets, get a pass? Why is Pippen held to a separate standard by "unbiased" fans who have no agenda regarding him (certainly nothing to do with MJ!)?

Here is the career head-to-head production of players compared here.

[U]Pippen vs. Miller[/U]

Pippen 17/[B]6[/B]/[B]5[/B] on [B]49%[/B]. [B]2[/B] steals, [B]1[/B] block.
Miller [B]19[/B]/3/3 on 45%. 1 steal, 0 blocks.

Bulls 4-1 against the Pacers in 94' so the MJ excuse doesn't work. Pippen's teams 36-12 overall in the RS against Miller's.

[U]Hakeem vs. Ewing[/U]

Hakeem 21/11/2 on 50%. 3 blocks, 2 steals.
Ewing 18/9/1 on 46%. 2 blocks, 1 steal.

Hakeem wins across the board. Their teams went 14-14.

[U]Ewing vs. Robinson[/U]

Robinson 23/9/3 on 51%. 3 blocks, 2 steals.
Ewing 20/10/2 on 43%. 3 blocks, 1 steal.

Nearly a clean sweep for Robinson but Ewing averaged 1.1 more RPG (Robinson 2.8 BPG versus 2.6 for Ewing).

[U]Ewing vs. Smits[/U]

Ewing dominated him in the RS.

Ewing 24/10/2 51%. 3 blocks, 1 steal.
Smits 13/6/1 49%. 1 block, 1 steal.

Playoffs a different story...:

Ewing 19/9/2 46%. 2 blocks, 1 steal.
Smits 17/6/1 54%. 1 block, 1 steal.

Similar story with Ewing vs. Mourning. Ewing wins the RS match ups but Mourning in the playoffs. They are a bit harder to assess, though, as they don't have much overlap in primes.

[U]Ewing vs. Daughtery[/U]

Ewing 24/10/2 53%. 1 block, 1 steal.
Daughtery 18/9/3 53%. 2 blocks, 1 steal.

Ewing wins this, although Daughtery basically got his career average numbers against Ewing (19/10/4 on 53% for his career). They never met in the playoffs.

Shaq crushed Ewing but hard to say much since, like Mourning, their primes only briefly overlapped. Suffice it to say, in the 94' season in question, they fought each other to a draw in the RS (although both declined in the playoffs so a playoff meeting would have been interesting).

This should extinguish the dumb "offensive rating" TP (from another thread where tpols was being tpols):

Fact check on their playoff oRTG's from 1991-1994 (no need to cherry pick and omit 91', as if it is different than 92'):

1994 playoffs oRTG: Pippen 104 (7th on CHI), Ewing 101 (6th on NY)
1993 playoffs oRTG: Ewing 109 (3rd on NY), Pippen 102 (9th on CHI)
1992 playoffs oRTG: Pippen 112 (4th on CHI), Ewing 110 (3rd on NY)
1991 playoffs oRTG: Pippen 116 (6th on CHI), Ewing 88 (9th on NY)
Playoff career: Pippen 108, Ewing 104

So using this dumb stat and TP, Ewing comes out behind 3 of 4 years during the time the two teams meet four consecutive years and behind career versus career. Jordan stans will careen from TP to TP, with or without the facts.

It is a dumb stat---as you can see they both ranked low on their own teams on this measure. It favors low usage role players.

Roundball the usage guy still at it again :facepalm

Tell me how peak numbers of 24.6ppg .514 fg% .414 3p% on 15.7 shots is bad because of usage?