How do you go about ranking Kobe Bryant?

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14871472]Not sure many were in that era. Don't think Kobe, AI, T-Mac, Vince, Houston, Finley, Pierce, or even Redd had a 60% TS% season from 2000-10. The only one who was really doing it was Ray Allen and he was an elite shooter. And get this, he played 18 seasons and only did it a total of 5 times.

**Just checked and Pierce did it twice. Once in 2010 and once in 2011, but you get the point.[/QUOTE]

yeah I had an argument with a friend a little while back about this and I told him to go look at every top wing from that era and tell me what you find. lol.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871453]kobe got shut down by a GOAT defense in legit probability the toughest defensive era. the league had to rewrite the rule book because of them

[/QUOTE]

The Spurs were the top DRtg team that year, and Kobe was a respectable 26ppg/46% in overcoming them two rounds earlier.

The Lakers couldn't stop Detroit. Mailman was injured. Kobe thought taking 30 more shots than Shaq who was averaging 26ppg/63% was the smart play. Take your pick.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14871474]The Spurs were the top DRtg team that year, and Kobe was a respectable 26ppg/46% in overcoming them two rounds earlier.

The Lakers couldn't stop Detroit. Mailman was injured. Kobe thought taking 30 more shots than Shaq who was averaging 26ppg/63% was the smart play. Take your pick.[/QUOTE]

That Detroit team was one of the best defensive teams of all time in probably the toughest defensive era ever in the NBA

If you want to say this statement is false, go for it

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14871469]Is she really a she? The last female I remember posting here was eons ago.[/QUOTE]

Earlier in this thread she said she is a woman and she’s been watching basketball for along time then Arbitrary Water tried to dismiss her opinion like she didn’t know what she’s talking about. When she actually watched the games he’s trying to pretend to know so much about. :lol

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871476]That Detroit team was one of the best defensive teams of all time in probably the toughest defensive era ever in the NBA

If you want to say this statement is false, go for it[/QUOTE]

You're equally free to go for whichever of my above statements you believe to be false.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871477]Earlier in this thread she said she is a woman and she’s been watching basketball for along time then Arbitrary Water tried to dismiss her opinion like she didn’t know what she’s talking about. When she actually watched the games he’s trying to pretend to know so much about. :lol[/QUOTE]

Great. Here are some flowers for her then. :cheers:

[IMG]https://www.flowersfromthefarm.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Ravenshill-Flower-Farm.-cut-flower-bucket-with-blues-and-pinks-summer.landscape-1024x683.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14871478]You're equally free to go for whichever of my above statements you believe to be false.[/QUOTE]

spurs being an amazing defensive team doesn’t make detroit’s any worse

that’s not how it works

i’m not going to dig for stats and i’m not trying to be rude but if you don’t believe the 04 Pistons was one of the best defensive teams of all time…

I’m sorry just gonna have to disengage from this conversation

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14871480]Great. Here are some flowers for her then. :cheers:

[IMG]https://www.flowersfromthefarm.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Ravenshill-Flower-Farm.-cut-flower-bucket-with-blues-and-pinks-summer.landscape-1024x683.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

:lol

she deserves them :cheers:

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14871472]Not sure many were in that era. Don't think Kobe, AI, T-Mac, Vince, Houston, Finley, Pierce, or even Redd had a 60% TS% season from 2000-10. The only one who was really doing it was Ray Allen and he was an elite shooter. And get this, he played 18 seasons and only did it a total of 5 times.

**Just checked and Pierce did it twice. Once in 2010 and once in 2011, but you get the point.[/QUOTE]



None of those guys are considered top 10 players, or even close. Not only did Pierce do it twice, he also had seasons of 59.9 and 59.5.

MJ had 4 straight seasons of 60% TS even though he didn't shoot many 3s. Kobe shot far more 3s which should help his efficiency relative to MJ.

What I find somewhat fascinating is how people can hate on a player they never watched and don’t know much about.

When I was a child maybe 6-8 years old I remember my first ever attempt at learning more about the players of the game from….the back of basketball trading cards. That was pretty much all we had to go with back then. A sports center update or the newspaper isn’t going to have much information about older players. We would read the backs of cards and look at their numbers. What’s funny about this is this was our earliest most rudimentary attempt of figuring out who’s better….and it was career totals, lol. Which of course much later we learned doesn’t mean nearly as much as we thought it did (which is funny because lebron guys still use this grade school analysis of career totals) But that’s another post for another time.


Eventually we came across a sports almanac and when we got to Wilt. Holy ****. My mind went the same place it went when in school your teacher tries to describe how there are more stars than grains of sand in all of the earth’s beaches. Completely stretching the imagination.

I was a warriors fan but was a huge MJ fan obviously. I didnt immediately instinctually (or ever in that case) go into a frenzy about “BS! NO WAY HE HAS MORE POINTS THAN JORDAN. THIS IS BULLSHIT. WILT SUCKS!!!!

I don’t know what happened. But it seemed to be this used to not be a thing.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14871483]None of those guys are considered top 10 players, or even close. Not only did Pierce do it twice, he also had seasons of 59.9 and 59.5.

MJ had 4 straight seasons of 60% TS even though he didn't shoot many 3s. Kobe shot far more 3s which should help his efficiency relative to MJ.[/QUOTE]

Taking nearly all end of the shotclock and end of the quarter shots didn't help him in this regard. But sure, he took plenty of crazy (meaning: bad) shots. It was a part of him being him. Sometimes it was very frustrating, yes. However, many good things also happened. Out of 3-4 insanely difficult shots he usually made one. Sometimes two. And the were periods when he just couldn't miss. So as much as this bad shot selection affected him badly, it also made him Kobe. You can literally make a 10 minute long highlight packed with crazy shots and you will not see the same shot twice.

I'll say it again: greatness is more than being a good player. Greatness is memories. Greatness is when kids 10,000 miles away throw something near a bin and they yell 'Kobe'. The 'Mamba mentality' is a real thing among ballers. The list goes on.

Greatness is this, here, this very thread. A thread about Tim Duncan? 5 replies. Hakeem? 20 replies, maybe. We are at 210. You have to be great to be discussed this much, especially if you are not a clear cut top 10 player and it's like 15 years ago when your actual play mattered. This is greatness.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871481]spurs being an amazing defensive team doesn’t make detroit’s any worse

that’s not how it works

i’m not going to dig for stats and i’m not trying to be rude but if you don’t believe the 04 Pistons was one of the best defensive teams of all time…

I’m sorry just gonna have to disengage from this conversation[/QUOTE]

Nothing I've said argues against Detroit's defensive prowess. The point in bringing up San Antonio is to say they were actually the number one ranked defensive team in 04, and Kobe played much better against them. That's not an opinion-based comment, that's what happened.

It's also factual that Shaq was being single-covered and a better scoring option in the context of how Detroit was defending LA. Here's where my opinion comes into play, the better strategy would have been to feature Shaq more in the offense and pressure the Pistons interior D, not Kobe forcing shots over double teams or Tayshaun Prince, effectively playing into their hands.

All that said, I also said that going more through Shaq doesn't change the outcome, but it's probably a more competitive series.

Every single all-timer has had a bad series. I saw live when Jordan went 9-35 against Miami or something like that in 97. Shit happens.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14871483]None of those guys are considered top 10 players, or even close. Not only did Pierce do it twice, he also had seasons of 59.9 and 59.5.

MJ had 4 straight seasons of 60% TS even though he didn't shoot many 3s. Kobe shot far more 3s which should help his efficiency relative to MJ.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think anyone here is arguing Kobe is as good as Michael Jordan

When you look at Kobe’s TS relative to league average and his peers it’s not bad at all

Mix this with his defense, playmaking, and countless other intangibles

It’s not a stretch to say he was one of the greatest players of all time.

If people (not necessarily saying you) want to hyperfocus on FG% while ignoring all other factors then fine.

It’s just not a very accurate representation of what really happened.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14871488]Nothing I've said argues against Detroit's defensive prowess. The point in bringing up San Antonio is to say they were actually the number one ranked defensive team in 04, and Kobe played much better against them. That's not an opinion-based comment, that's what happened.

It's also factual that Shaq was being single-covered and a better scoring option in the context of how Detroit was defending LA. Here's where my opinion comes into play, the better strategy would have been to feature Shaq more in the offense and pressure the Pistons interior D, not Kobe forcing shots over double teams or Tayshaun Prince, effectively playing into their hands.

All that said, I also said that going more through Shaq doesn't change the outcome, but it's probably a more competitive series.

Every single all-timer has had a bad series. I saw live when Jordan went 9-35 against Miami or something like that in 97. Shit happens.[/QUOTE]

So Kobe torched one of the best defenses then sputtered vs another one

Look out! Guys I think Kobe just fell out of the top 100!!!!

There are a lot of great players who aren't considered top ten players. That is a very select group.

Kobe had everything necessary to be in that group but his shot selection keeps him out for me, and for a lot of other people too it seems.

Saying a guy isn't top 10 all time isn't like calling him a scrub but some here seem to take it that way.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14871491]There are a lot of great players who aren't considered top ten players. That is a very select group.

Kobe had everything necessary to be in that group but his shot selection keeps him out for me, and for a lot of other people too it seems.

Saying a guy isn't top 10 all time isn't like calling him a scrub but some here seem to take it that way.[/QUOTE]

That’s fair. I honestly have pretty much given up on hard rankings awhile ago. If someone has him just outside the top 10 that seems somewhat reasonable. When people start to say 15-20 it’s like c’mon now, I hope you are trolling.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14871491]There are a lot of great players who aren't considered top ten players. That is a very select group.

Kobe had everything necessary to be in that group but his shot selection keeps him out for me, and for a lot of other people too it seems.

Saying a guy isn't top 10 all time isn't like calling him a scrub but some here seem to take it that way.[/QUOTE]

Polarizing figure even in his death. That in itself is saying a lot. Most top 10 players you cannot make this long a thread about. People just don't care that much. I'm happy with my 'top 5-15 since 1980' categorization and it is especially because of what you've just reiterated: very few spots for too many greats. Does it matter if he is top 8, 12 or 17? Not really. We talk about it regardless. And it just means he was great. We care. This way or that way. I'm not sure you can ask for more as a player.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871493]That’s fair. I honestly have pretty much given up on hard rankings awhile ago. [/QUOTE]

You gave up once you realized Curry would never be ranked ahead of LeBron.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871490]So Kobe torched one of the best defenses then sputtered vs another one

Look out! Guys I think Kobe just fell out of the top 100!!!![/QUOTE]

Except I said several pages ago that Kobe's career just from 2004-2013 post Shaq warrants top 15 status, never mind what he achieved playing with Shaq. Reacting with wild hyperbole when there's no evidence I'm hating on Kobe seems wasted energy on your part, but go for it.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14871496]Except I said several pages ago that Kobe's career just from 2004-2013 post Shaq warrants top 15 status, never mind what he achieved playing with Shaq. Reacting with wild hyperbole when there's no evidence I'm hating on Kobe seems wasted energy on your part, but go for it.[/QUOTE]

Sorry not trying to be rude but when you tried to say Detroit 04 wasn’t a goat defensive team because the spurs, felt like a troll post.

During the 2004 Pistons playoff run they gave up more than 100 points only once. (And it because the game had to go into triple overtime)

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871497]Sorry not trying to be rude but when you tried to say Detroit 04 wasn’t a goat defensive team because the spurs, felt like a troll post.[/QUOTE]

I didn't try to say anything of the sort. I said San Antonio was the number one ranked defensive team in 2004. It was tangential to the conversation when discussing Kobe's ability to attack elite defense. You determined this meant I was arguing that Detroit wasn't a GOAT defense, which wasn't even remotely inferred on my part. What I DID say/suggest/infer, is Kobe played into Detroit's GOAT defensive hands by forcing shots when you had Shaq having the relatively better offensive series. The Pistons effectively knew that Kobe would try to attack them by proving he could score on them, instead of deferring to Shaq's advantage on the inside.

Most overrated overhyped media created player after Jordan and Lebron.


Curry shits all over Kobe as an actual player and career.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871501]During the 2004 Pistons playoff run they gave up more than 100 points only once. (And it because the game had to go into triple overtime)[/QUOTE]

But there had to be a reason why Detroit's defense was disregarded and LA was so highly favored going into the series.

I was actually gonna type something, but I don't think it's worth it lol.

-Smak

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871501]During the 2004 Pistons playoff run they gave up more than 100 points only once. (And it because the game had to go into triple overtime)[/QUOTE]

Considering teams averaged like 93 ppg in 2004, it's not really surprising.

The '89 Pistons gave up more than 100 points two times in a league where teams were averaging 109 ppg.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871527]Considering teams averaged like 93 ppg in 2004, it's not really surprising.

The '89 Pistons gave up more than 100 points two times in a league where teams were averaging 109 ppg.[/QUOTE]

Shows how different the defensive climates were in Jordan and Kobe’s career compared to now.

Just how we deflate Wilts numbers, their numbers need inflation.

[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt;14871503]


Curry shits all over Kobe as an actual player and career.[/QUOTE]

Does he, really?

I've done these comparisons before. Steph and KB got the same raw averages in their primes in the POs but Steph has the higher efficiency. The league is also more efficient in this era by about the same margin and they play at a higher pace (more possessions aka more opportunities to put up higher numbers), so how is Kobe overrated and any worse when we weigh all that in? Steph's a better shooter and I'll even give him a slight edge in playmaking as well, but KB is better at a lot of areas, so I don't see how Curry shits all over Kobe to any extent. You can talk about the RS numbers for Steph but with the Playoffs KB has the edge.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14871483]None of those guys are considered top 10 players, or even close. Not only did Pierce do it twice, he also had seasons of 59.9 and 59.5.

MJ had 4 straight seasons of 60% TS even though he didn't shoot many 3s. Kobe shot far more 3s which should help his efficiency relative to MJ.[/QUOTE]

That is a good point.

People forget that when debating who's the GOAT, you're talking about the greatest of ALL time. Not the greatest of THEIR time. Would Steph Curry be as great in the 60's if his shot wasn't worth 3 points? No he would not. He would have to be a totally different player.

If you can remove the three point line and reduce that person to a much worse player, then they can't possibly be the greatest of all time. Greatest shooter maybe, not greatest player. Being great at basketball can't just be all about threes.

No matter what era you put him in, Bean is doing work. With spacing and without spacing. With a three or without the three.

The same way I go about judging all players – By taking into account their raw statistics (in the context of their era), their advanced metrics, their accolades, the era they played, the help they had.

Based on the above, Kobe is ranked anywhere from 7-12. I without question have MJ, LBJ, Kareem and Duncan over him. I also have personally Magic, Russell and Shaq over him, with Bird and Wilt just behind, but those 5 can be debated.

Some key points to remember with Kobe are;

He never had a historically great playoff run. 2001 is amazing statistically, but it comes with the caveat that he was still his own teams 2nd best player. 2009 is probably his best argument, and in that playoff run he beat 2 All-NBA players (Dwight and Melo). Statistically it’s great, but not historic. He never won a finals unless a teammate of his played better than his opponents best player.

Kobe only has 1 season in his career where he finished higher than a 7 seed or won a playoff series without an All-NBA teammate (and it was 08, his MVP season). Kobe isn’t someone who elevated mediocre players and teams. For reference, Duncan didn’t have an All-NBA teammate between 2000-2007, he still won 3 titles and competed in most of those seasons.

His defensive selections late in his career are near universally recognized (at least by non-Kobe fans) as being erroneous. There is just zero way as late as 2011 you can argue his defence was still top 4 in the league for a guard. I’d argue even after 2004 it dropped drastically. From 06-10, he could play lockdown defence when he wanted to, which meant sporadic regular season games and the playoffs. With that said, he had great defensive wings (Ariza/MWP) to alleviate the defensive pressure on Kobe.

You can take away Kobes first 3 seasons and last 6 seasons and nothing from his career really changes. That’s almost a decade of his career where nothing of note happens bar All-Star/All-NBA/All-Defensive team selections.

He is quite clearly the worst teammate and leader of anyone in the top 10 (he’s there with Wilt and Hakeem in that respect(. This matters to me.

The clutch narrative is just that. Kobe is one of the most mediocre elimination game/Game 7 players of any top 15 player. His finals stats don’t jump off the page (weird, because I thought the East in LBJs era was weak)? He has 3 pretty pathetic finals performances (00/04/08), with 01/09 being very good, 02/10 being good.

^^ I like this analysis. A few things I disagree with (Hakeem, Bird) but the Kobe part seems objective. (It is of course subjective, but in a way that's not overboard.) However, something surprised me. As I read your paragraphs I had the feeling you have lot of bad things to say about Kobe, yet you have him in the 7-12 range. (I have him somewhere there, too.) It made me think as to what you would write about some other good players. :-)

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14872238]^^ I like this analysis. A few things I disagree with (Hakeem, Bird) but the Kobe part seems objective. (It is of course subjective, but in a way that's not overboard.) However, something surprised me. As I read your paragraphs I had the feeling you have lot of bad things to say about Kobe, yet you have him in the 7-12 range. (I have him somewhere there, too.) It made me think as to what you would write about some other good players. :-)[/QUOTE]

I despise Kobe and the way he was, I will admit it. In some ways it blurs my view of him, but I still try to be as objective as I can. I feel having him 8th attests to that.

Give me another player and I'll be glad to dissect them the same way.

Kobe never had a great playoff run?

In 2010 the Lakers beat:

- The KD / Westbrook OKC team (inexperienced but would see the finals two years later)
- The D-Will / Boozer Jazz
- The Nash / Amare Suns (not the best version of that team but still a damn good team)
- The Big 3 Celtics (one of the best teams of that era)

Not exactly a cake walk.

You tell me what that team accomplishes with just Gasol, Odom and Bynum.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14872260]

You tell me what that team accomplishes with just Gasol, Odom and Bynum.[/QUOTE]

With a healthy Bynum? Not bad actually. It's a small sample size, but the Lakers were 6-3 without Kobe from '08-'10

Kobe stans will point out that he used to have injuries that impeded him in some of his playoff performances before (like in the 2000 finals and 2010 finals). However, it still doesn't take away the fact that it's likely due to a lot of unnecessary and selfish ball-jacking that contributed to those, as well as his atrophies later on in his career. No matter how 'hardworking' he made himself look like when he did them. He probably tried to challenge himself numerous times by letting his opponents dominate or come back in the game with tons of missed shots he had, usually at the expense of his own team. Even the zenmaster became mad about his own shtick. Tho kobe himself was very lucky to have some useful teammates that could bail him out once some situations went out of control.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14872262]With a healthy Bynum? Not bad actually. It's a small sample size, but the Lakers were 6-3 without Kobe from '08-'10[/QUOTE]

He only missed games in 2010, and in that sample size they were still worse without him that year. That team with Phil at the helm and with a decent Kobe replacement would still have been solid tbh. If you just took Kobe off the scoring would be too hard to maintain, but if you gave them another wing who fit in the triangle they'd still contend for the Playoffs, as we saw from Pau in Memphis.

[QUOTE=Axe;14872265]Kobe stans will point out that he used to have injuries that impeded him in some of his playoff performances before (like in the 2000 finals and 2010 finals). However, it still doesn't take away the fact that it's likely due to a lot of unnecessary and selfish ball-jacking that contributed to those, as well as his atrophies later on in his career. No matter how 'hardworking' he made himself look like when he did them. He probably tried to challenge himself numerous times by letting his opponents dominate or come back in the game with tons of missed shots he had, usually at the expense of his own team. Even the zenmaster became mad about his own shtick. Tho kobe himself was very lucky to have some useful teammates that could bail him out once some situations went out of control.[/QUOTE]

So explain to me how Jalen Rose intentionally injuring KB was actually KB's fault? Or the finger injuries that were freak accidents, where he wasn't even shooting the ball?

I have him 5th behind MJ, LeBron, Kareem and Magic

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14872277]So explain to me how Jalen Rose intentionally injuring KB was actually KB's fault? Or the finger injuries that were freak accidents, where he wasn't even shooting the ball?[/QUOTE]
Ok, we will try to excuse him from those. But there are some elite players that went through their own injuries who were still able to put up good numbers on better ts or efficiency.