Can people post their rosters while making their final selections?
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Can people post their rosters while making their final selections?
It's just poor logic. Basketball analysis needs to match the reality of the game's complexity. Fans like to simplify things because it makes it easier to understand.
RRR3 is 100% someone who thought replacing Ben Simmons with a star that can shoot would make Philly better but it didn't. Not by any measurable degree. And all these years later the most dangerous the 76ers have ever looked was in the 2019 Playoffs with a lineup of Simmons-Reddick-Butler-Harris-Embiid.
That 2018-19 post-trade starting lineup was ridiculously good. +22.4 per 100 possessions in the regular season and +26.7 per 100 possessions in the playoffs per Cleaning the Glass. And they had one good three-point shooter. Horrible shooting/spacing; that lineup shouldn't have worked according to RRR3 but it did.
If only they had a good bench...
[QUOTE=tpols;14937281]There isn't a single team today that has Kareem or Kevin McHales level of post and midrange scorer either. Except Jokic and to a lesser extent Embiid.
Not everything comes down to 3s when we're dealing with superstar talent. You're shitting on McHale @ the 4 when he produced a higher offensive output from 2pt range than most stretch 4s do. He had monster efficiency and game inside the arc.
And again Chris Paul is literally one of the best shooting point guards ever. His jumper and spacing were terrific. Kobe even by a haters opinion is a top 15 GOAT and he was mostly a jump shooter whose shot was widely respected and chased after with double teams on the perimeter. To say Kobe couldn't shoot and space the floor is just a total nonsense opinion. And then Pierce obviously could as well. Kareem and Mchale have some of the best big man shooting touch ever too.
That team is not lacking for shooting skill at all.[/QUOTE]
From midrange, ttrolls, midrange. Yes they were some of the GOAT midrange shooters, but good luck beating 3s with 2s.
[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14937285]It's just poor logic. Basketball analysis needs to match the reality of the game's complexity.
RRR3 is 100% someone who thought replacing Ben Simmons with a star that can shoot would make Philly better but it didn't. Not by any measurable degree. And all these years later the most dangerous the 76ers have ever looked was in the 2019 Playoffs with a lineup of Simmons-Reddick-Butler-Harris-Embiid.
That 2018-19 post-trade starting lineup was ridiculously good. +22.4 per 100 possessions in the regular season and +26.7 per 100 possessions in the playoffs per Cleaning the Glass. And they had one good three-point shooter. Horrible shooting/spacing; that lineup shouldn't have worked according to RRR3 but it did.[/QUOTE]
And they lost as soon as they faced a team they couldn't overwhelm with raw talent. They beat the Brooklyn Nets and lost to Kawhi and shooters despite the fact Kawhi could barely move. None of these bad shooting teams drafted are that far ahead of the other teams talent wise.
[QUOTE=dankok8;14937283]Not to mention Dr J/McHale/Kareem can all shoot up to 15 feet really well. They just aren't 3pt shooters.
As my last pick, I am going for a monster 3pt shooter though. Give me [B]Glen Rice[/B]. Dude shot 44% from 3pt range (!) on 5 attempts a game from 1996-1998 and then was a key player on the 2000 championship Lakers.[/QUOTE]
Teams will concede midrange shots even to guys who are good from there though, that's the difference. I'd much rather have one of those elite paint guys shooting midrange shots at 45 TS% then being at the rim or a guy who is capable from 3. You have to shoot 50% from midrange to be equal in value to a guy shooting 33% on 3s.
Dankok's final roster
C - Kareem | Zo
F - McHale
F - Pierce | Dr. J
G - Kobe | Rice
G - CP3
[QUOTE=RRR3;14937288]And they lost as soon as they faced a team they couldn't overwhelm with raw talent. They beat the Brooklyn Nets and lost to Kawhi and shooters despite the fact Kawhi could barely move. None of these bad shooting teams drafted are that far ahead of the other teams talent wise.[/QUOTE]
You are incapable of arguing in good faith. Why do I even bother with you...
[img]https://24.media.tumblr.com/486e18ae6eecfff97fdc19dbc33ab4ca/tumblr_mhqc9iSDIg1qed7g8o2_400.gif[/img]
[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14937293]You are incapable of arguing in good faith. Why do I even bother with you...
[img]https://24.media.tumblr.com/486e18ae6eecfff97fdc19dbc33ab4ca/tumblr_mhqc9iSDIg1qed7g8o2_400.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
That was in good faith, but ok
[QUOTE=RRR3;14937295]Steaming.[/QUOTE]
In all these years on ISH I would've expected you to mature a little.
Jmaster’s final roster
C- Duncan - Wemby
F -Rasheed
F- Middleton
G - R. Miller - SGA
G - Magic - Kidd
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937292]Dankok's final roster
C - Kareem | Zo
F - McHale
F - Pierce | Dr. J
G - Kobe | Rice
G - CP3[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937297]Jmaster’s final roster
C- Duncan - Wemby
F -Rasheed
F- Middleton
G - R. Miller - SGA
G - Magic - Kidd[/QUOTE]Thanks for doing that.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937297]Jmaster’s final roster
C- Duncan - Wemby
F -Rasheed
F- Middleton
G - R. Miller - SGA
G - Magic - Kidd[/QUOTE]
Middleton sticks out as a fatigued lets get this overwith pick :lol
Would have liked to see another prime time finisher like Worthy or Amare even if it meant playing big in the front court. I think you get more out of Magic and Kidd that way than any gains Middleton's 3pt shot brings.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14937289]Teams will concede midrange shots even to guys who are good from there though, that's the difference. I'd much rather have one of those elite paint guys shooting midrange shots at 45 TS% then being at the rim or a guy who is capable from 3. You have to shoot 50% from midrange to be equal in value to a guy shooting 33% on 3s.[/QUOTE]
Dude... I have CP3, Kobe, Pierce in my starting lineup all of whom shoot threes well. Ain't nobody leaving them open on the perimeter. And either McHale or Kareem can be 10-12 feet from the basket while the other posts up. No defense is leaving either of them open either. If you're giving Kareem wide open 12 foot sky hooks/jumpers that won't end well for you.
Of course a bigger problem is how is the other team gonna score on me. Four elite defenders plus Pierce and I'm choosing the 2008 version so he was quite good on D as well. My defense is pretty scary probably the best of all the rosters. Don't forget defense is 50% of the game.
[QUOTE=dankok8;14937307]Dude... I have CP3, Kobe, Pierce in my starting lineup all of whom shoot threes well. Ain't nobody leaving them open on the perimeter. And either McHale or Kareem can be 10-12 feet from the basket while the other posts up. No defense is leaving either of them open either. If you're giving Kareem wide open 12 foot sky hooks/jumpers that won't end well for you.
Of course a bigger problem is how is the other team gonna score on me. Four elite defenders plus Pierce and I'm choosing the 2008 version so he was quite good on D as well. My defense is pretty scary probably the best of all the rosters. Don't forget defense is 50% of the game.[/QUOTE]
When did Kobe shoot 3s well? He shot above league average from 3 as a starter ONCE, and that was mostly in a league where 3PT shooting wasn't prioritized like it is now either. -7% from 3 compared to league average for his career.
[QUOTE=Charlie Sheen;14937303]Middleton sticks out as a fatigued lets get this overwith pick :lol
Would have liked to see another prime time finisher like Worthy or Amare even if it meant playing big in the front court. I think you get more out of Magic and Kidd that way than any gains Middleton's 3pt shot brings.[/QUOTE]
Seriously.
When it comes to these superstar teams so many people are overrating the spacing thing like you can't put up huge point totals with guys who are masters at 2pt scoring like the 80s didn't exist where teams averaged record amounts of points.
James Worthy, Chris Webber, Clyde Drexler etc. I believe all didn't get drafted. Some of these guys produced on waaaay higher efficiency than the 3pt spacer types taken.
Moses Malone is a top 15-20 GOAT and didn't even get drafted? Dr. J almost didn't either. The 1983 sixers are in contention for best team ever and those were their top guns. Sidney Moncrief didn't either. These were well rounded superstars.
It's crazy.
[QUOTE=Charlie Sheen;14937303]Middleton sticks out as a fatigued lets get this overwith pick :lol
Would have liked to see another prime time finisher like Worthy or Amare even if it meant playing big in the front court. I think you get more out of Magic and Kidd that way than any gains Middleton's 3pt shot brings.[/QUOTE]
lol I think that’s fair criticism. I might have tunnel visioned a bit with that pick.
[QUOTE=tpols;14937309]Seriously.
When it comes to these superstar teams so many people are overrating the spacing thing like you can't put up huge point totals with guys who are masters at 2pt scoring like the 80s didn't exist where teams averaged record amounts of points.
James Worthy, Chris Webber, Clyde Drexler etc. I believe all didn't get drafted. Some of these guys produced on waaaay higher efficiency than the 3pt spacer types taken.
Moses Malone is a top 15-20 GOAT and didn't even get drafted? Dr. J almost didn't either. Sidney Moncrief didn't either. These were well rounded superstars.
It's crazy.[/QUOTE]
They were playing against teams who played the same style of ball. Any 80s team would get absolutely obliterated by a modern team. They shot like 5 3s a game and made maybe 1, teams today are making like 14 3s a game. Right off the bat that's almost a 40 point advantage for the modern team.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14937312]They were playing against teams who played the same style of ball. Any 80s team would get absolutely obliterated by a modern team. They shot like 5 3s a game and made maybe 1, teams today are making like 14 3s a game. Right off the bat that's almost a 40 point advantage for the modern team.[/QUOTE]
Again if that happened it would only be because the current teams role players got hot from 3. This is a superstar draft. Not a comparison of an average NBA team from 1985 vs today.
Nobody had any problem taking Bird or Magic or Kareem from the early 80s in the 1st round of this draft two of whom didn't shoot 3s at all but Moses and Dr. J are off the table?
That makes no sense. The 1983 Sixers were one of the most dominant title teams ever and were led by those two players.
Guys, there are no correct answers here, it's a matter of taste. Some people like to draft era specifc teams, like me, and others like to draft bad teams. It's all good.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14937308]When did Kobe shoot 3s well? He shot above league average from 3 as a starter ONCE, and that was mostly in a league where 3PT shooting wasn't prioritized like it is now either. -7% from 3 compared to league average for his career.[/QUOTE]
Kobe shot 36% from 3pt on 5 attempts a game in 2008 and took a lot of bailout shots. Trust me, no one leaves Kobe open at the 3pt line. My starting PG/SG/SF are shooting ~15 threes a game at ~40%. And surely much higher than that on open shots when the defense collapses to deal with the Kareem/McHale double monster down low. Besides Rice will get a bunch of Pierce's minutes and he takes 6 threes a game and makes them at a 47% clip!
Just to be clear, these are the years for the players I'm choosing.
PG: 2015 Chris Paul
SF: 2008 Kobe Bryant
SF: 2008 Paul Pierce
PF: 1987 Kevin McHale
C: 1980 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bench:
1980 Julius Erving
1997 Glen Rice
2000 Alonzo Mourning
[QUOTE=tpols;14937313]Again if that happened it would only be because the current teams role players got hot from 3. This is a superstar draft. Not a comparison of an average NBA team from 1985 vs today.
Nobody had any problem taking Bird or Magic or Kareem from the early 80s in the 1st round of this draft two of whom didn't shoot 3s at all but Moses and Dr. J are off the table?
That makes no sense. The 1983 Sixers were one of the most dominant title teams ever and were led by those two players.[/QUOTE]
I would draft Moses or Dr. J if I had 4 other shooters to surround them with, but there are likely better options for non-3PT shooters then them available, which is why they didn't get picked. You can play one guy who's useless from 3, but it's basically impossible to play with 2 guys who literally don't take 3s now.
And no a current team would not need to get hot to beat an 80s team, it's just simple volume. They could shoot 35% on 3s and blow the door off the other team shooting 48% on all twos.
[QUOTE=dankok8;14937316]Kobe shot 36% from 3pt on 5 attempts a game in 2008 and took a lot of bailout shots. Trust me, no one leaves Kobe open at the 3pt line. My starting PG/SG/SF are shooting ~15 threes a game at ~40%. And surely much higher than that on open shots when the defense collapses to deal with the Kareem/McHale double monster down low. Besides Rice will get a bunch of Pierce's minutes and he takes 6 threes a game and makes them at a 47% clip!
Just to be clear, these are the years for the players I'm choosing.
PG: 2015 Chris Paul
SF: 2008 Kobe Bryant
SF: 2008 Paul Pierce
PF: 1987 Kevin McHale
C: 1980 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bench:
1980 Julius Erving
1997 Glen Rice
2000 Alonzo Mourning[/QUOTE]
Kobe taking bad shots is not a positive, and he was shooting poorly from 3 even when he played with peak Shaq. Rice is a good pick but you'd have to play him a lot with the rest of that roster and probably not play Erving much at all.
[QUOTE=DJMcDonald;14937314]Guys, there are no correct answers here, it's a matter of taste. Some people like to draft era specifc teams, like me, and others like to draft bad teams. It's all good.[/QUOTE]
:lol
[QUOTE=RRR3;14937319]Kobe taking bad shots is not a positive, and he was shooting poorly from 3 even when he played with peak Shaq. Rice is a good pick but you'd have to play him a lot with the rest of that roster and probably not play Erving much at all.[/QUOTE]
Taking bad shots is not a positive but Kobe won't need to carry a big offensive load or take tough shots on this team. He'll shoot when he's open or exploit mismatches and take bad defenders to school. And of course he'll be able to focus a lot on defense.
[QUOTE=tpols;14937309]Seriously.
When it comes to these superstar teams so many people are overrating the spacing thing like you can't put up huge point totals with guys who are masters at 2pt scoring like the 80s didn't exist where teams averaged record amounts of points.
James Worthy, Chris Webber, Clyde Drexler etc. I believe all didn't get drafted. Some of these guys produced on waaaay higher efficiency than the 3pt spacer types taken.
Moses Malone is a top 15-20 GOAT and didn't even get drafted? Dr. J almost didn't either. The 1983 sixers are in contention for best team ever and those were their top guns. Sidney Moncrief didn't either. These were well rounded superstars.
It's crazy.[/QUOTE]I think we too often give players of the past too much credit while shitting on players today. Khris Middleton shot over 48% from 10-16 and over 45% from 16-3pt FOR HIS CAREER and was clutch in closing out key games in the finals against the Suns… again using the middie… off the dribble too. And he’s a capable secondary/ third playmaker who can give you 4 assists. This is all ON TOP of being a 3 and D player when need be. That being said, a wing who is elite in transition with Magic and Kidd is good criticism.
In contrast, we just assume someone like McHale can play at the top of the key. It’s too bad distance shooting %’s didn’t exist, but doing a quick dive most breakdowns of McHale’s game online doesn’t suggest he has range outside of 12-15.
If we break down his 56 point game
[video=youtube;xrm6Ab-iAcU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrm6Ab-iAcU&themeRefresh=1[/video]
He had 2 12-15 foot fadeaways and the rest were baby hooks and layups. I’m guilty of it too, earlier in this same thread I suggested he’s probably Laettner level in terms of spacing and I was dead wrong. We assume he’s money from midrange because he’s an all timer known for his skill… and to some degree we still have the “white guy can shoot” mentality when judging players.
Even if you look up Bird highlights to see the spacing McHale provides and it’s nonexistent.
That being said, McHale made it work with Parish, so I don’t see much issue of him playing alongside 1980 KAJ.
But Tpols, no one is out here drafting Kapono and Watanabe. Spacing is crucial, there’s a reason Curry is often considered the goat in terms of offensive impact and for a lot of these teams it isn’t so much living and dying from 3, but being at least respectable from there. You don’t need 5 30 point scorers, no one’s scoring 200 ppg here.
[QUOTE=dankok8;14937322]Taking bad shots is not a positive but Kobe won't need to carry a big offensive load or take tough shots on this team. He'll shoot when he's open or exploit mismatches and take bad defenders to school. And of course he'll be able to focus a lot on defense.[/QUOTE]
He didn't need to take tough shots when he played with Shaq either. But he did. You're pretending he wouldn't take idiotic shots on your team, but we all know he would. That's just how he played. I once saw him pass up an open 3 and pump fake until he drew the defender close at which point he took a contested 3.
yo RA$TA
[IMG]https://lalweb.blob.core.windows.net/public/lakers/product-marketing/web/history/kobe/kobe-alumni/kobe71213164.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=RRR3;14937324]He didn't need to take tough shots when he played with Shaq either. But he did. You're pretending he wouldn't take idiotic shots on your team, but we all know he would. That's just how he played. I once saw him pass up an open 3 and pump fake until he drew the defender close at which point he took a contested 3.[/QUOTE]
He also took tough shots and shot 47% on the redeem team while Lebron and Wade shot 60 and 67% respectively. Melo took bad shots too and barely shot 40% that run. For some players it’s just in their dna to take those looks. Kobe isn’t going to stop because he’s on a super team, we’ve seen it quite a few times.
[QUOTE=j3lademaster;14937328]He also took tough shots and shot 47% on the redeem team while Lebron and Wade shot 60 and 67% respectively. Melo took bad shots too and barely shot 40% that run. For some players it’s just in their dna to take those looks. Kobe isn’t going to stop because he’s on a super team, we’ve seen it quite a few times.[/QUOTE]
Yes, exactly. Plus it's pretty easy to bait Kobe into spamming midrange shots, and while he was undoubtedly deadly from there, teams will take that over 3s because the math is just not going to work. I'm not saying they'd leave Kobe open from midrange because they wouldn't but they'd try to get him to start jacking from there (and he would). Contested midrange shots, even from a guy as good at them as Kobe, isn't going to hold up that well against a modern offense. Or did no one watch the Suns this past playoffs? And they had far more 3PT shooting...
[SIZE=6][B]m[/B]e[/SIZE]
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Kobe just took the vast majority of his team's shots at the end of possessions. Ben Taylor tracked this. So some of Kobe's inefficiency was taking tough shots but a lot of it was "2 seconds left on the clock. I'm not letting Fish take this. I'm taking it." Which is actually good for the team because while it hurts Kobe's efficiency it helps his team's efficiency because role players suck at making pressure shots.
That's why the Lakers for all of the 2000's except the 2005-2007 period had really good offenses. If Kobe was hurting his team, the Lakers wouldn't have been so good offensively. LOL at comparing him to Melo. You guys are jokers.
Bailout shots from the primary option are hardly exclusive to Kobe. Who said he was hurting his team? His positives outweighed that negative, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a flaw.
[QUOTE=dankok8;14937336]Kobe just took the vast majority of his team's shots at the end of possessions. Ben Taylor tracked this. So some of Kobe's inefficiency was taking tough shots but a lot of it was "2 seconds left on the clock. I'm not letting Fish take this. I'm taking it." Which is actually good for the team because while it hurts Kobe's efficiency it helps his team's efficiency because role players suck at making pressure shots.
That's why the Lakers for all of the 2000's except the 2005-2007 period had really good offenses. If Kobe was hurting his team, the Lakers wouldn't have been so good offensively. LOL at comparing him to Melo. You guys are jokers.[/QUOTE]
Your takeaway is a Kobe to Melo comparisons? That’s incredibly obtuse. I was just giving examples of players who are prone to taking bad shots regardless of their teams.
So it looks to me the top ten undrafted players
So if someone wanted to field a team of undrafted players it would be
C - M.Malone (Gasol)
F - Webber (English)
F - Dantley (Hill)
G - Gervin (Drexler)
G - Isiah (Harden)
[QUOTE=John8204;14937344]So it looks to me the top ten undrafted players
So if someone wanted to field a team of undrafted players it would be
C - M.Malone (Gasol)
F - Webber (English)
F - Dantley (Hill)
G - Gervin (Drexler)
G - Isiah (Harden)[/QUOTE]
I could quite literally beat that team with Derrick White as my best player. Harden is your ONLY shooter. That team could easily not make a single 3 if Harden isn't on.
[SIZE=4]Len[B] B[/B]ia$ o.d.'d
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[IMG]https://s.abcnews.com/images/Politics/len-bias-basketball-memorial-02-gty-llr-211118_1637292539039_hpMain_16x9_1600.jpg[/IMG]
To get the thread back on track, remaining picks are:
AlternativeAcc
SouBeachTalents
imagine
DJMcDonald
Manny98
Tom Penny [I]pro[B]b[/B]LY [/I]od'd
[IMG]https://www.skateboardstickers.com/cdn/shop/articles/tom-penny-pro-skateboarder-history-and-about-image.jpg?v=1693952312[/IMG]
[QUOTE=RRR3;14937330]Yes, exactly. Plus it's pretty easy to bait Kobe into spamming midrange shots, and while he was undoubtedly deadly from there, teams will take that over 3s because the math is just not going to work. I'm not saying they'd leave Kobe open from midrange because they wouldn't but they'd try to get him to start jacking from there (and he would). Contested midrange shots, even from a guy as good at them as Kobe, isn't going to hold up that well against a modern offense. Or did no one watch the Suns this past playoffs? And they had far more 3PT shooting...[/QUOTE]
One of the biggest strengths KAJ, McHale and CP3 bring to the table is consistency. If the strategy is to avoid those wild swings in variance and put pressure on the other team by converting at a higher rate night after night. Wade fits that profile better than Bean. This is the issue more than lack of shooters.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14937339]Bailout shots from the primary option are hardly exclusive to Kobe. Who said he was hurting his team? His positives outweighed that negative, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a flaw.[/QUOTE]
Ok but it wasn't a major flaw. And most of the guys with higher rTS than Kobe were more conservative with their shots late in the shot clock.