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Cooper's shooting has been really poor to start this season. He's like 35% on long twos and 25% on threes or thereabouts. 70% or so on FTs. But he's still doing 70% roughly at the rim. He was 54/144 on threes and 111/139 on FTs across 58 games in JR and SR seasons with Montverde in high school.
80% FT over a decent sample in high school. That gives me some confidence in his shooting potential.
That being said I'm trying to focus on the big picture rather than getting caught up in small details. Shooting is important but Cooper just does so much well. A legit athletic two-way point forward is something I'm interested in.
Wagner (unfortunately just got injured) has shown MVP-esque lift this season while taking on a huge offensive responsibility. Maybe Flagg becomes a broadly similar type of player at the next level?
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14961808]That navigational efficiency with the change of speed and soft touch to finish. Damn. Impressive.[/QUOTE]
As funny as the whole [I]navigational efficiency[/I] thing was, there's definitely truth to it. How well a player is able to translate their athleticism/raw movement onto the basketball court via basketball skills is important. Some guys can run a blistering 40 but put a ball in their hands and they're slower and stiffer than others.
Cooper has some issues with certain aspects of his handle but he's able to combine it with strong footwork to cover a lot of ground with a live dribble. Part of what makes him an open-court terror.
Cooper is averaging 1.4 blocks per game. Anthony Davis averaged 4.6 blocks per game in college. Pretty big gap there.
I was hoping by now, that his offensive game would have more polish, and that he would have kept growing, since light haired white dudes tend to not be done growing by 16-17.
But it is what it is. At 6’8.5-6’9”, he isn’t gonna be some defensive rim protector at the NBA Level. And his skills offensively aren’t SG/SF enough to warrant being a #1 pick.
Marketable, good looking kid, but I think anyone who thinks he can just magically be some generational player are delusional. He’ll average unimpressive numbers and be a decent player, but I can’t see how he could be a superstar like they want him to be, since it’s clear he’s done growing, and lacks guard level skills.
[QUOTE=bizil;14961807]LOL!! Yep Ciff Robinson was one I mentioned earlier too. I think a hybrid of Cliff-Chambers-Nance-Detlef could be applied to Flagg as a comp. Defensive versatility of Cliff, freak athletic top notch scoring like Chambers, elite shot blocking freak athletic forward like Nance, could function as a point forward from the SF or PF while getting 8-10 RPG like Detlef. Flagg is so unique can't compare him to one player.[/QUOTE]
Cliff-Detlef-Nance probably gets most of it right to be honest.
I wouldn't get too caught up in blocks per game at the expense of overall defensive impact. Miss the forest for the trees sort of thing. Duke is the #1 defense and Cooper's advanced analytics (Evan Miya, KenPom, Bart Torvik) are really good.
[b]2025 Duke's defensive numbers[/b]
BartTorvik: 89.8 adjusted DRtg [-15.8 rDRtg] (1st)
KenPom: 89.4 adjusted DRtg (1st)
EvanMiya: 14.2 D-Rate (3rd)
[b]2012 Kentucky's numbers[/b]
BartTorvik: 90.4 adjusted DRtg [-12.2 rDRtg] (9th)
KenPom: 89.6 adjusted DRtg (7th)
EvanMiya: 11.7 D-Rate (8th)
[b]Cooper Flagg's numbers[/b]
BartTorvik: 5.8 D-PRPG (1st); 5.8 DBPM (15th)
EvanMiya: 3.8 DBPR (3rd); 1.36 Box DBPR (1st)
[b]Anthony Davis' numbers[/b]
BartTorvik: 5.6 D-PRPG (1st); 7.6 DBPM (1st)
EvanMiya: 3.35 DBPR (15th); 3.68 Box DBPR (1st)
Duke's shooting splits:
[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/3srMC8L/XIEEWXY-d.webp[/IMG]
Cooper's jump shooting is yikes! But those rim numbers are really good given his outside game sucks right now. 70% at the rim with decent volume and lots of self creation.
ISB lemme ask you this: I know theres some numbers floating around about his height and his wingspan and his max vertical and whatnot and who knows how reliable those numbers are.
If you had to eyeball it, what would you guess his... [I]max horizontal[/I] is?
OBVIOUSLY he's not Lebron. Nobody is. But you reckon hes got somethin pretty respectable going on?
Those numbers are fine, remember that Lebron had horrid shooting splits until Miami, he show low 30s on everything but layups and dunks.
[QUOTE=90sgoat;14962457]Those numbers are fine, remember that Lebron had horrid shooting splits until Miami, he show low 30s on everything but layups and dunks.[/QUOTE]
First if all Flagg doesn't have the handles or athleticism of Lebron. Secondly Cooper is shooting 22% from the college 3 pt line. That is awful.
[QUOTE=tontoz;14962466]First if all Flagg doesn't have the handles or athleticism of Lebron. Secondly Cooper is shooting 22% from the college 3 pt line. That is awful.[/QUOTE]
In fairness it's quite a small sample size.
Theres still NBA players this season whove taken way more shots than Flagg and are still shooting very anomalous percentages. Some guys still over 50% for the year, other guys like KCP under 30%. None of thats going to last til the end of the season.
Shooting can be very streaky when youre talking about weeks or even months worth of sample sizes. It's very possible Flagg is a 35% shooter right now in terms of ability, and hes just in a small sample rut. No way to know at this point really.
In fact I would say it's almost impossible he's a truly 22% shooter from three. A guy with his talent, in this era, just couldnt be THAT bad at it. Theres plenty of guys with less coordination and worse mechanics who shoot better than that.
So I wouldnt call it a cause for concern at this point.
[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14962492]In fairness it's quite a small sample size.
Theres still NBA players this season whove taken way more shots than Flagg and are still shooting very anomalous percentages. Some guys still over 50% for the year, other guys like KCP under 30%. None of thats going to last til the end of the season.
Shooting can be very streaky when youre talking about weeks or even months worth of sample sizes. It's very possible Flagg is a 35% shooter right now in terms of ability, and hes just in a small sample rut. No way to know at this point really.
In fact I would say it's almost impossible he's a truly 22% shooter from three. A guy with his talent, in this era, just couldnt be THAT bad at it. Theres plenty of guys with less coordination and worse mechanics who shoot better than that.
So I wouldnt call it a cause for concern at this point.[/QUOTE]
If he was projected 10th in the mocks then it would be easier to ignore. At number 1 his inability to shoot anywhere outside of 3 feet is a glaring problem. And his sample of total shots outside 3 feet is almost 100 shots.
Among all the top 10 college prospects I believe Edgecomb is the only one struggling with his shot as much as Flagg.
It's also that you shouldn't go to college to learn how to shoot corner 3s. We've seen time and time again that almost every NBA player can learn to shoot 3s on the job.
What they can't learn in the league is who to learn good fundamentals and intangibles, because the NBA is a win now league where teammates are also competitors.
Coop should focus on the fundamentals and team play and developing his strengths. He can learn to shoot 3s over a summer break.
[QUOTE=90sgoat;14962526]It's also that you shouldn't go to college to learn how to shoot corner 3s. We've seen time and time again that almost every NBA player can learn to shoot 3s on the job.
What they can't learn in the league is who to learn good fundamentals and intangibles, because the NBA is a win now league where teammates are also competitors.
Coop should focus on the fundamentals and team play and developing his strengths. He can learn to shoot 3s over a summer break.[/QUOTE]
It isn't just shooting 3s. He cant shoot from anywhere outside 3 feet.
If he was shooting 45% from midrange then i would have some optimisim that he could extend that to 3s.
Here's the shooting data from Cooper's senior year at Montverde:
[QUOTE]The biggest question that most people will have about Flagg’s offense is his shot. The biggest “issue” is that it just kind of looks funky. There are surely some mechanical tweaks that Flagg can/should make, there always are, but he’s gotten incrementally better as a shooter every year. While his mechanics may not be aesthetically pleasing, they are consistent, and the numbers have been solid.
Last year at Montverde, Flagg took 56.9% of his jumpers (74 attempts) from three. On these attempts, he shot 39.2%, ranked in the 78th percentile in PPP, shot 37.7% off the catch, and shot 42.9% off the dribble. Flagg also shot 39.3% on all two-point attempts, 43.2% from inside 17 feet, and 31.6% on long two-point attempts. Nearly all of these numbers are up from last year, combined with his 79.6% free throw percentage and quality floater (45% and 72nd percentile in PPP), suggesting that at worst, Flagg should be an average shooter.[/QUOTE]
Some data about his off-ball offensive game. Strong Shawn Marion vibes; can get 15-20 ppg without any plays called for him.
[QUOTE]With Montverde, Flagg was mostly used as an incredibly efficient play finisher and connector as he ranked in the 81st percentile in transition scoring, 73rd percentile spotting up, 91st percentile on offensive rebounds, and 83rd percentile on cuts. Those were his four most common play types that accounted for 65.9% of his possessions.[/QUOTE]
And some numbers regarding his playmaking.
[QUOTE]We got a glimpse of it in that clip, but one of the most underrated aspects of Flagg’s game is his passing. With Montverde, Flagg ranked in the 94th percentile in PPP with assists included, averaged just over four assists per game, had a turnover rate of just 11.1%, and had an assist-to-turnover ratio of 2.53. When it comes to decision-making, connective passing, and floor awareness, there aren’t many players in this class who are as impressive as Flagg, especially at his position.[/QUOTE]
Those numbers look odd. 31.6% on long 2s but 39% on 3s? Typically guys shoot a higher percentage on long 2s than 3s, sometimes 10%+ better.
I don't have access to the Synergy Sports Tracking data so I can't comment on that. The shooting is a concern but it's too early to make it out to be a critical issue. Moreover, Dylan Harper is just balling out and I can absolutely see him take poll position in the draft projections. Shades of Harden/SGA?
[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14962610]I don't have access to the Synergy Sports Tracking data so I can't comment on that. The shooting is a concern but it's too early to make it out to be a critical issue. Moreover, Dylan Harper is just balling out and I can absolutely see him take poll position in the draft projections. Shades of Harden/SGA?[/QUOTE]
Yeah I've watched Harper a few times and I would say he is the clear best player right now, especially now that he is warming up from 3.
I also like Tre Johnson from Texas. He put on a show in the 2nd half last game vs UConn.
[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14962328]ISB lemme ask you this: I know theres some numbers floating around about his height and his wingspan and his max vertical and whatnot and who knows how reliable those numbers are.
If you had to eyeball it, what would you guess his... [I]max horizontal[/I] is?
OBVIOUSLY he's not Lebron. Nobody is. But you reckon hes got somethin pretty respectable going on?[/QUOTE]
Anyone figure this shit out?
[QUOTE=Proctor;14962619]Anyone figure this shit out?[/QUOTE]
Looks like he wants to know Cooper's dick size. :lol
All-around good game. His efficiency was better than the statistics suggest. He had a few Moses Malone, multiple-missed tip-ins in the first half which led to him being 2/11 FG at one point.
- 24 points, 9 rebounds (5 off), 4 assists, 3 steals, 1 block
- 7/20 FG, 2/5 3PT, 8/8 FT
[url]https://x.com/brhoops/status/1869207624820138488[/url]
[video=youtube;yOWXU6knGOA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOWXU6knGOA&pp=ygUMY29vcGVyIGZsYWdn[/video]
Didn't realize Duke played today. I thought the game was tomorrow. One of his best games yet.
- 24 points, 3 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 steals, 1 block, 1 turnover
- 9/14 FG, 2/4 3PT, 4/4 FT
[video=youtube;3uj7RwFrPGI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uj7RwFrPGI[/video]
Flagg is going to be really good, I'm sure of it.
He'll be playing SF/PF and now I realize who he reminds me off: Franz Wagner.
He is a very similar body type and physicality, but quicker and way more athletic, but he plays the same game, triple threat creation, drive kick, low post moves but also range.
And he has the defense of PG/Kirilenko.
You could also say he plays an old man Lebron game, very similar, you can tell he's been watching Lebron a lot.
He's going to be a star if he gets time to develop and keeps growing and filling out.
Like I said, put him in a situation to be the secondary ball handler and he'll do great.
Another great game for Cooper.
- 24 points, 11 rebounds (3 offensive), 3 assists, 1 steal, 2 blocks, 3 turnovers
- 7/12 FG, 2/2 3PT, 8/8 FT
[video=youtube;uph1Shwie5A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uph1Shwie5A&pp=ygUMY29vcGVyIGZsYWdn[/video]
He's now at 54.7% TS and 30% 3PT for the season. For freshman comparison: Paolo 55.7% TS and 33.8% 3PT and Tatum 56.6% TS and 34.2% 3PT. We're dealing with incredibly small samples here so the numbers change quick.
Another great game for Cooper. Had a monster steal-and-transition-dunk sequence.
- 19 points, 10 rebounds (1 offensive), 5 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 3 turnovers
- 7/11 FG, 1/2 3PT, 4/6 FT
[video=youtube;8Z7NLyBYS7w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z7NLyBYS7w&pp=ygUMY29vcGVyIGZsYWdn[/video]
[video=youtube;W3VXv-c6tPE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3VXv-c6tPE&pp=ygUMY29vcGVyIGZsYWdn[/video]
Flagg dropped 42 today:
11-14 from the field
4-6 from 3
16-17 from the foul line
:bowdown:
[QUOTE=tontoz;14968955]Flagg dropped 42 today:
11-14 from the field
4-6 from 3
16-17 from the foul line
:bowdown:[/QUOTE]
Scored every which way too. On and off the ball, from all over the court. Insane performance.
Number one pick completely locked up now I think.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14968975]Number one pick completely locked up now I think.[/QUOTE]
Over his last 6 games he's 12-22 from 3 so yeah I think that locks it up. Shooting foul shots well too.
What a clip with his dunks there!
I'm very high on Coop, I think he'll be a star and I think people underestimate his athletic ability. He is strong and takes very long strides and can jump.
I still think his best comparison is Frank Wagner, less shooting, more defense. He also has some Giannis in his game, the defense and the long strides, simple but effective.
Beast.
Could Cooper win NPOY? Johni Broome just went down with an injury. He might miss a lot of games. There have only been 3 freshmen ever to win NPOY: Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, and Zion Williamson.
[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14969001]Could Cooper win NPOY? Johni Broome just went down with an injury. He might miss a lot of games. There have only been 3 freshmen ever to win NPOY: Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, and Zion Williamson.[/QUOTE]
I’ve watched most of the best teams at least once and I think it’s pretty clear at this point that Flagg is the best player in college basketball. If he continues to improve and find this groove it’ll only be more obvious. Even if Broome didn’t go down.
[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14969001]Could Cooper win NPOY? Johni Broome just went down with an injury. He might miss a lot of games. There have only been 3 freshmen ever to win NPOY: Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, and Zion Williamson.[/QUOTE]
I don't know but he is beginning to look like a man among boys, in college mind you, not high school.
In some way, I wish he'd stay one more year in college. He clearly needs to learn more, particularly shooting.
He'll still be ROY probably, but his shooting form looks like it might need some touch, not a lot of arch. Shoots decently quick and high though.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14969002]I’ve watched most of the best teams at least once and I think it’s pretty clear at this point that Flagg is the best player in college basketball. If he continues to improve and find this groove it’ll only be more obvious. Even if Broome didn’t go down.[/QUOTE]
I heard KenPom had Flagg #1 for NPOY even prior to Broome's injury.
[QUOTE=90sgoat;14969014]I don't know but he is beginning to look like a man among boys, in college mind you, not high school.
In some way, I wish he'd stay one more year in college. He clearly needs to learn more, particularly shooting.
He'll still be ROY probably, but his shooting form looks like it might need some touch, not a lot of arch. Shoots decently quick and high though.[/QUOTE]
Cooper's too good for college basketball to return for a sophomore season. Hell, he's NBA-level right now.
Cooper's Synergy Sports Tracking play-type stats:
[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GhFmb_cWcAAYO-n?format=png&name=900x900[/IMG]
Another great game tonight for Cooper in his return to the North East. Lots of people from Maine came to watch him play. He's strengthening that NPOY case with Broome out injured.
- 28 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks, 2 turnovers
- 9/14 FG, 1/3 3PT, 9/11 FT
[url]https://x.com/Frankie_Vision/status/1880820446574366990[/url]
[video=youtube;_CbjPYtDxN4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CbjPYtDxN4[/video]
Cooper's bully-ball potential is legit. He's really functionally strong, has superb balance, and absorbs contact exceptionally well. He's one of those guys whose strength exceeds his weight. He's probably only around cruiserweight (205-210 pounds) right now but engages physically like a heavyweight. Draymond/Rodman-like.
Makes sense when you look at his sturdy/thick, wide-bodied frame. He'll get up to 235-240 and be a bully at the wing position in the NBA.