Jokic is the 4th best player of all time

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14989547]You're using team accomplishments to determine who the better individual player is, literally the most flawed metric NBA fans use, esp if we're talking strictly peak play. Kareem was also definitely the Lakers best player that first year they won together, and could be argued for 1 or 2 other titles as well.

Magic would have 1 title at best like Jokic with this Denver team, and even then I'm not convinced he'd be able to duplicate what Jokic did against Phoenix that year.[/QUOTE] You don't build a team around magic the same way you do around Jokic. They might not even have one ring because they'd have a gasping hole at center. That isn't relevant. The Chamonix absolutely are relevant because they're the ultimate validation of a player's greatness. It doesn't mean that a player without them is not but if you take away championships then why would Kobe be regarded as the greatest wing of his era? What puts Curry over Lillaird? We're judging a resume. It matters.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14989545]Magic won 5 championships. Piling up trophies like that puts him at a higher level. To be fair I acknowledge he wasn't a great defender either but 5 championships as best player is the definition of dominance.[/QUOTE]

My whole thread isn't about "resumes".

Also did you just say Magic won 5 rings as the best player on his team? What the **** are you smoking???

Honestly I'm done responding to you, your takes in this thread are atrocious.

Since when did GOAT discussions ignore rings? Take your ball and go home if you're so sensitive you apparently can't deal with a debate.

The guy is barely top 20, lay off the drugs. He's beaten 1 50 win team his entire playoff career, which is pretty pathetic for a 30 year old ATG.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14989727]Since when did GOAT discussions ignore rings? Take your ball and go home if you're so sensitive you apparently can't deal with a debate.[/QUOTE]

Yeah we should just ignore rings and have Wilt as the GOAT again because he dominated the RS more than anyone else in league history, and he was an elite defender. Jokic is in a weird spot where he's ATG offensively but how many ATG centers are average on the defensive end? And before someone tries to argue stats with me, Denver is bottom 10 on defense this year and they're better on D in the non-Jokic minutes.

Omg Jokic 60pt triple double. I change my mind he’s the best player ever! And he won’t stop.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14989886]Yeah we should just ignore rings and have Wilt as the GOAT again because he dominated the RS more than anyone else in league history, and he was an elite defender. Jokic is in a weird spot where he's ATG offensively but how many ATG centers are average on the defensive end? And before someone tries to argue stats with me, Denver is bottom 10 on defense this year and they're better on D in the non-Jokic minutes.[/QUOTE]

Is he even average? Some random bum from the bench casually has season-careers #s on him on the regular. Wouldn't be surprised if Post drops 20-25 tonight because Jokic is on the other side. :lol

[QUOTE=hold this L;14989857]The guy is barely top 20, lay off the drugs. He's beaten 1 50 win team his entire playoff career, which is pretty pathetic for a 30 year old ATG.[/QUOTE]

:roll:

You guys keep trying to go the conventional "resume" route of ring counting which is lame. Remember, MJ was crowned GOAT with just one ring.

This thread is not a "GOAT" conversation, which is much more than just on court impact. I am referring to on-court impact. Jokic is at least top 5 all time, I mean the guy is literally number 1 ALL TIME in a ton of advanced stats, literally ahead of MJ.

No one has lead the ENTIRE league in so many advanced stats for almost FIVE years now and not automatically been considered a top 10 player of all time. We don't need on paper resumes to determine this. The league is LUCKY the Jokic's best teammates were literally injured and unavailable in the 2021 and 2022 playoffs.

[QUOTE=hold this L;14989906]Is he even average? Some random bum from the bench casually has season-careers #s on him on the regular. Wouldn't be surprised if Post drops 20-25 tonight because Jokic is on the other side. :lol[/QUOTE]

Wow, a Curry stan trying to slam another player's defense? You guys are retarded.

Oscar Robertson had an amazing stretch from a statistical standpoint. I wonder if social media existed then what his place in fans hearts would be.

[QUOTE=GOBB;14989917]Oscar Robertson had an amazing stretch from a statistical standpoint. I wonder if social media existed then what his place in fans hearts would be.[/QUOTE]

Oh I just realized Gobb is Embiid stan :roll:

That's just sad.

Jokic has put up historic performances week after week for 5 years now that everyone has become numb to it.

That's how you know he's in the Lebron/MJ territory of on-court performance.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14989921]Oh I just realized Gobb is Embiid stan :roll:

That's just sad.

Jokic has put up historic performances week after week for 5 years now that everyone has become numb to it.

That's how you know he's in the Lebron/MJ territory of on-court performance.[/QUOTE]

You’re a bit emotional here. And I get it based on the exchanges you have had in this thread. So let’s reconnect shall we? First to say I’m an Embiid Stan is wild. It has no relevance on my reply whatsoever. I’ll coddle you a bit here. Jokic is better. Jokic if we ranked centers is higher. Jokic if we ranked them all time players is even higher. Now if we take both at their best and healthy? I feel it’s a fair matchup. And no one should be surprised IF Embiid were to get the best in said matchup assuming both guarded the other. That said Jokic has been at his best far longer than Embiid ever has nor will be. But my point in this is that is the ONLY time an embiid vs Jokic discussion would make some type of sense.

It’s sad you stooped to this level honestly. You’re usually level headed from what I’ve read from you. And not really on a fanatic crusade of a player. Maybe my sample size of posts I read from you is small. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong.


Jokic has done amazing things. Never denied that. I guess repeating it helps? Being numb to it is a general observation because we live in a social media world where fans are spoiled. Where fans raise expectations of being impressed to ridiculous feats. You scored 100? Wow cool. Score 150 and I’m moved. Wilt did 100 already. Social media has fans nitpicking things with their magnifying glasses. Discrediting, diminishing in past or present eras. The lack of just appreciation things you saw in real time is lost.


My post is simple. Why is Oscar Robertson who achieved similar feats often left out of convos? This had been a thing before Jokic was drafted. Mosy likely none of us here saw him play. Nor experienced the era in which he did. Arguing/throwing out advanced metric/stats seems a bit weird for players we never actually saw.

Your opinion of your opinion. It’s not going to change. Your mind is made up on Jokic and his place. Now I am an Iverson stan so my opinion on him. His place amongst the greats. His impact. You can’t convince me otherwise. Not here to do the same for you when it comes to Jokic my guy.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14989910]Wow, a Curry stan trying to slam another player's defense? You guys are retarded.[/QUOTE]
There's a monolithic difference between a center being bad defensively vs a guard, you complete and utter moron. We have seen bench player centers have either season or career highs vs Jokic. Curry has been a part of one of the best defensive teams in the league for many, many years because he's a mediocre on ball and great team defender. I understand that you have to bring up another player instead of focusing on the topic though, I'd expect nothing less than a mouth breather that thinks Jokic is a top 4 player all time.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14989909]:roll:

You guys keep trying to go the conventional "resume" route of ring counting which is lame. Remember, MJ was crowned GOAT with just one ring.

This thread is not a "GOAT" conversation, which is much more than just on court impact. I am referring to on-court impact. Jokic is at least top 5 all time, I mean the guy is literally number 1 ALL TIME in a ton of advanced stats, literally ahead of MJ.

No one has lead the ENTIRE league in so many advanced stats for almost FIVE years now and not automatically been considered a top 10 player of all time. We don't need on paper resumes to determine this. The league is LUCKY the Jokic's best teammates were literally injured and unavailable in the 2021 and 2022 playoffs.[/QUOTE]
They were saying he was the goat, but it was always assumed he would do more. Absolutely nobody would consider MJ the goat today if he only once, outside of spastic player stans. It's disingenuous or delusional to believe otherwise.

- Jokic has beaten 1 50 win team his entire playoff career, legitimately one of the most pathetic stats for an ATG.
- The only year he did win, it was one of the worst historical SRS runs if not the worst in NBA history.
- When Jokic was off the court during that run, the team had a higher net rating than any of the 35 seasons that either Steph or Lebron had when they were off the court. Yes, that includes that 2017 playoff run where Warriors went 16-1 and had KD onthe team. His team was cooking that well (against garbage opponents).


Advanced stats are being broken because when they were originally made, they weren't taking account centers getting so many bonuses for the way they play now. Giannis is right there with Jokic for some of the best advance statistics ever, and nerds like you would probably put as what.. top 5? Why not right, look at his statistics.

[QUOTE=GOBB;14989946]You’re a bit emotional here. And I get it based on the exchanges you have had in this thread. So let’s reconnect shall we? First to say I’m an Embiid Stan is wild. It has no relevance on my reply whatsoever. I’ll coddle you a bit here. Jokic is better. Jokic if we ranked centers is higher. Jokic if we ranked them all time players is even higher. Now if we take both at their best and healthy? I feel it’s a fair matchup. And no one should be surprised IF Embiid were to get the best in said matchup assuming both guarded the other. That said Jokic has been at his best far longer than Embiid ever has nor will be. But my point in this is that is the ONLY time an embiid vs Jokic discussion would make some type of sense.

It’s sad you stooped to this level honestly. You’re usually level headed from what I’ve read from you. And not really on a fanatic crusade of a player. Maybe my sample size of posts I read from you is small. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong.


Jokic has done amazing things. Never denied that. I guess repeating it helps? Being numb to it is a general observation because we live in a social media world where fans are spoiled. Where fans raise expectations of being impressed to ridiculous feats. You scored 100? Wow cool. Score 150 and I’m moved. Wilt did 100 already. Social media has fans nitpicking things with their magnifying glasses. Discrediting, diminishing in past or present eras. The lack of just appreciation things you saw in real time is lost.


My post is simple. Why is Oscar Robertson who achieved similar feats often left out of convos? This had been a thing before Jokic was drafted. Mosy likely none of us here saw him play. Nor experienced the era in which he did. Arguing/throwing out advanced metric/stats seems a bit weird for players we never actually saw.

Your opinion of your opinion. It’s not going to change. Your mind is made up on Jokic and his place. Now I am an Iverson stan so my opinion on him. His place amongst the greats. His impact. You can’t convince me otherwise. Not here to do the same for you when it comes to Jokic my guy.[/QUOTE]

I may have said this earlier in the thread, but if not, I will here. I have a very tough time ranking players who played way back in Oscar's time, or frankly any time before 1980. The game, the rules, the team building, the contracts, etc., it's just too different. Stats were barely tracked too.

I give Kareem the benefit of the doubt because he was dominate in the 80's even at old age, so clearly if he was in his prime he'd be smacking people around. MJ and Lebron need no explanation.

I'm just saying we haven't see a player dominant the NBA from a purely individual basis like Jokic has over the last 5 years since Lebron entered his prime/peak, and then again since MJ entered his peak. Like, it is what it is.

We have Jokic, a guy who is currently top 3 in the league in points, rebounds, steals, deflections, has the highest TS% out of volume scorers, and has the second best AST/TO ratio out of volume passes. He also completely passes the eye test and has ZERO skill weaknesses.

He keeps doing things that NO ONE has ever done before (including Lebron, MJ, Kareem), and we keep having a bunch of people just downplay it all. Honestly I think social media has ruined "greatness" because we've simply been exposed to it too much. If Jokic was doing this shit 15 years ago, then he'd be held in much higher regard.

The fact that people have to bring up Wilt and Oscar to make a statistical comparison actually SHOWS how insane Jokic is. He is doing this in a fully modern era.

[QUOTE=hold this L;14989948]There's a monolithic difference between a center being bad defensively vs a guard, you complete and utter moron. We have seen bench player centers have either season or career highs vs Jokic. Curry has been a part of one of the best defensive teams in the league for many, many years because he's a mediocre on ball and great team defender. I understand that you have to bring up another player instead of focusing on the topic though, I'd expect nothing less than a mouth breather that thinks Jokic is a top 4 player all time.[/QUOTE]

Bro if Centers are so much more important than PGs when in comes to basketball, then you are crippling your own argument.

Curry's teammate help has been 5 times more than Jokic ever had buddy. Jokic already passed Curry in MVPs, 1st team all-nba selections (after this year) advanced stats, everything. Curry simply has more rings (same amount of FMVPS though) compared to Jokic because of getting lucky in the 2015 finals (Kyrie/Love injured) and then CONSTANTLY getting huge acquisitions via his Warriors management (Iggy, Bogut, KD, Wiggins, Butler).

Jokic hasn't had a SINGLE teammate even make the all star team (although Murray was clearly all-star level in 2023 players, and what do you know? Jokic won a ring).

I'm a big fan of Curry and I'm excited to see what he can do now that Butler is on the team, but you claiming Jokic isn't even top 20 all time just kills your credibility.

Also, once again, my thread isn't about who has the best "Resumes" which everyone keeps trying to pivot too. It's about IMPACT. No one has had impact stats like Jokic since Lebron and MJ.

Tbf, you should've worded your thread title a lot better, it literally says Jokic is the 4th best player of all time, which a lot of people will interpret to mean all time rank, not just peak or ability.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14989968]Tbf, you should've worded your thread title a lot better, it literally says Jokic is the 4th best player of all time, which a lot of people will interpret to mean all time rank, not just peak or ability.[/QUOTE]

BRUH, my OP is extremely short and concise. This is what I mean when I just posted that social media has ruined everything. People's attention spans and ability to have rational discussion are ****ing gone. All these people need to do is read like the 30 ****ing works I put in the OP, but apparently that's too hard.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14989969]BRUH, my OP is extremely short and concise. This is what I mean when I just posted that social media has ruined everything. People's attention spans and ability to have rational discussion are ****ing gone. All these people need to do is read like the 30 ****ing works I put in the OP, but apparently that's too hard.[/QUOTE]
Or, you could just word your thread title better, avoid this confusion altogether. Look how many times you've had to correct the record because of it :lol

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14989963]Bro if Centers are so much more important than PGs when in comes to basketball, then you are crippling your own argument.

Curry's teammate help has been 5 times more than Jokic ever had buddy. Jokic already passed Curry in MVPs, 1st team all-nba selections (after this year) advanced stats, everything. Curry simply has more rings (same amount of FMVPS though) compared to Jokic because of getting lucky in the 2015 finals (Kyrie/Love injured) and then CONSTANTLY getting huge acquisitions via his Warriors management (Iggy, Bogut, KD, Wiggins, Butler).

Jokic hasn't had a SINGLE teammate even make the all star team (although Murray was clearly all-star level in 2023 players, and what do you know? Jokic won a ring).

I'm a big fan of Curry and I'm excited to see what he can do now that Butler is on the team, but you claiming Jokic isn't even top 20 all time just kills your credibility.

Also, once again, my thread isn't about who has the best "Resumes" which everyone keeps trying to pivot too. It's about IMPACT. No one has had impact stats like Jokic since Lebron and MJ.[/QUOTE]

You're not reading what I said. I'm talking about defense. A player being bad defensively matters more if they're a center than a guard. You can complain about help, but his issue hasn't been help, his 4th best guy can drop 30 piece from their team. Their 3rd best guy is a regular 60% TS on an annual basis. To give some reference, Klay has never gotten to 60% TS despite being one of the best shooters ever.

To be the goat, everything is accounted for but reality is you can talk about 2015 all you want, but Steph went against 4 1st all NBA players in every single round. Got help with injuries, then the opposite happened the year after. Jokic has literally went through the worst SRS playoff championship run.. ever. And you're talking about other players easy runs. :lol

I did not say he's not top 20 but barely in there. Anyone who thinks Jokic is top 10 is retarded, let alone top 5. And most advance metrics gas up centers who have a lot of assists on top of rebounds, because we generally never dealt with point centers before. Giannis by your garbage method would also be a top 5 player because hey, he's got all the metrics and 1st all NBAs to get there.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14989971]Or, you could just word your thread title better, avoid this confusion altogether. Look how many times you've had to correct the record because of it :lol[/QUOTE]

If people can't read 30 words and only read headlines, then we are officially cooked as society. I mean, we are already cooked for sure, but damn, it's just a few words.

Jokic is currently on pace to lead NBA centers in deflections (240) for a sixth straight season.

And Jokic uses his feet a lot. In recent years no one in the NBA has stopped the game more by kicking the ball than Jokic. Since the start of 2020, the superstar has been whistled for a whopping 127 kicked-ball violations, between his regular-season and postseason games.

I still can't believe we have so many people clinging onto the idea that Jokic is a "bad" defender. Sure, he's below average at specifically rim protection, but he's damn good at everything else because he's an extremely high BBIQ player. He is elite at steals, deflections, kick-balls, positioning, knowing the opponents offensive schemes plays (same thing Lebron get's legendary hype for).

Curry is quite a bit better at defense than Jokic relative to the position they play. Sure Jokic is better overall at defense, but he ****ing better be as a center. Having someone with Curry's defense isn't problematic for team building at all, someone with Jokic's defense at center IS.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14990094]Curry is quite a bit better at defense than Jokic relative to the position they play. Sure Jokic is better overall at defense, but he ****ing better be as a center. Having someone with Curry's defense isn't problematic for team building at all, someone with Jokic's defense at center IS.[/QUOTE]

What's up with people claiming it's not important for Curry to be good at defense? WTF are yall smoking? It's INCREDIBLY important to be able to guard the other teams ballhanders (typically other guards).

Have you ever heard of a point of attack defender? A "point-of-attack defender" in basketball is a player tasked with guarding the opposing team's primary ball-handler, focusing on staying in front of them and navigating screens to disrupt their offense.

This is INCREDIBLY important, probably the most important it's ever been in the modern NBA basketball.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14990099]What's up with people claiming it's not important for Curry to be good at defense? WTF are yall smoking? It's INCREDIBLY important to be able to guard the other teams ballhanders (typically other guards).

Have you ever heard of a point of attack defender? A "point-of-attack defender" in basketball is a player tasked with guarding the opposing team's primary ball-handler, focusing on staying in front of them and navigating screens to disrupt their offense.

This is INCREDIBLY important, probably the most important it's ever been in the modern NBA basketball.[/QUOTE]
Outside of Curry, just off the top of my head the following point guards have been starters on championship teams: Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Derek Fisher (as an old man too), Tony Parker, Jamal Murray. Please tell me which of them was some notable defender :lol Matter of fact, how many great defensive starting PGs can you name from championship teams?

[QUOTE=RRR3;14990103]Outside of Curry, just off the top of my head the following point guards have been starters on championship teams: Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Derek Fisher (as an old man too), Tony Parker, Jamal Murray. Please tell me which of them was some notable defender :lol Matter of fact, how many great defensive starting PGs can you name from championship teams?[/QUOTE]

Honestly you are making the same mistake the other Curry stan did. Yall both completely ruined your own argument because you basically claimed that Centers are simply more important to have than PGs on an NBA roster.

You already said Jokic is a better defender than Curry, but he's also a better rebounder and offensive player too :lol

He's got Curry beat everywhere.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14990106]Honestly you are making the same mistake the other Curry stan did. Yall both completely ruined your own argument because you basically claimed that Centers are simply more important to have than PGs on an NBA roster.

You already said Jokic is a better defender than Curry, but he's also a better rebounder and offensive player too :lol

He's got Curry beat everywhere.[/QUOTE]
Center is inherently the most impactful defensive position you idiot :hammerhead:

He is not better relative to position, not even close.


Now name the great defensive PGs on championship teams, slugger. Since it's so important :yaohappy:

[QUOTE=RRR3;14990107]Center is inherently the most impactful defensive position you idiot :hammerhead:

He is not better relative to position, not even close.


Now name the great defensive PGs on championship teams, slugger. Since it's so important :yaohappy:[/QUOTE]

What exactly is Curry better at than Jokic when looking at the whole package. Jokic is a better defender and rebounder clearly. We can also argue he's a better offensive player too.

Jrue Holiday is a good example considering the Celtics just won last year. He also won with the Bucks in 2021.

Some other good ones are Jason Kidd, Rajon Rondo, Walt Frazier, Chauncy Billups, Maurice Cheeks, Jerry West, Isaiah Thomas.

There might others but that's a good list in my opinion.

Who told you Isiah Thomas was a good defender? :lol Have you even read about him? Now try naming a team with a weak defender at center that won a ring. And no Jokic is not better than Curry at offense, no one is.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14990113]Who told you Isiah Thomas was a good defender? :lol Have you even read about him? Now try naming a team with a weak defender at center that won a ring. And no Jokic is not better than Curry at offense, no one is.[/QUOTE]

Uhh, plenty of teams won rings with weak defensive centers. Are you serious? Plenty of teams nowadays even have power forwards actually playing the center position. Also small ball teams might have a guy like Lebron or Draymond play center. So clearly it's not a NEEDED thing to win.

Also Jokic has absolutely an argument of being better at offense than Curry. Jokic is basically Dirk/Nash combined into one entity on offense. Two of the best offensive players of all time COMBINED.

Bro called Draymond a weak defender and expects me to take him seriously

[QUOTE=RRR3;14990125]Bro called Draymond a weak defender and expects me to take him seriously[/QUOTE]

You said weak centers and I responded that plenty of teams DONT EVEN HAVE centers anymore. That's my point. Dray is clearly a great defender, but he's not even a center at all. Many teams have won without dominant defensive centers. MJ's bulls didn't have any, they had rodman and grant who were elite 4's for sure.

Oh by the way, here you go.

Jokic 2020-2025: 31.7 PER, 66.3 TS%, .302 WS/48, 13.1 BPM

MJ 88-93: 30.3 PER, 59.3 TS%, .288 WS/48, 11.2 BPM.

Jokic is outdoing PEAK MJ, who was literally the advanced stats god before Jokic came through :lol

Draymond plays center a ton. Do you even watch basketball?

[QUOTE=RRR3;14990133]Draymond plays center a ton. Do you even watch basketball?[/QUOTE]

Yeah but he's NOT an actual Center dummy. He's a forward stepping into play the 5 due to small ball.

Oh by the way, Jokic even leads the league this year in average 3-point distance at 28.7 feet :roll:

Jokic is literally the basketball SKILL GOD, he makes every shot from everywhere on the floor and makes every possible pass everywhere on the floor while also have an elite assist/turnover ratio.

He might be the most skilled player I have ever seen.

LeBron, MJ & Jokic are the top 3 best

[QUOTE=RRR3;14990094]Curry is quite a bit better at defense than Jokic relative to the position they play. [B] Sure Jokic is better overall at defense, but he ****ing better be as a center.[/B] Having someone with Curry's defense isn't problematic for team building at all, someone with Jokic's defense at center IS.[/QUOTE]

Steph is flat out better than Jokic defensively, this is just wrong. The problem is that Jokic is comically lazy defensively and gives very little effort. People talk a lot of shit about Lebron taking off plays defensively, but he's 40 years old. Jokic does it on a far greater level. If Steph had this pathetic level of effort defensively, he would be one of the worst defensive guards in the league. He has try a lot to be solid to good due to physical limitations.

Tonight on several instances, Jokic is just taking plays off. But hey, he is top 3 in steals so obviously that doesn't matter right? :lol There was a play tonight where Steph got a rebound next to Jokic, then ran to the 3P line to shoot a 3, and Jokic just flat didn't bother going after him. He just stood near the rim and two other guys ran towards Steph to try to defend the 3. Legitimately pathetic defending.

[QUOTE=hold this L;14990184]Steph is flat out better than Jokic defensively, this is just wrong. The problem is that Jokic is comically lazy defensively and gives very little effort. People talk a lot of shit about Lebron taking off plays defensively, but he's 40 years old. Jokic does it on a far greater level. If Steph had this pathetic level of effort defensively, he would be one of the worst defensive guards in the league. He has try a lot to be solid to good due to physical limitations.

Tonight on several instances, Jokic is just taking plays off. But hey, he is top 3 in steals so obviously that doesn't matter right? :lol There was a play tonight where Steph got a rebound next to Jokic, then ran to the 3P line to shoot a 3, and Jokic just flat didn't bother going after him. He just stood near the rim and two other guys ran towards Steph to try to defend the 3. Legitimately pathetic defending.[/QUOTE]

Jokic isn't lazy on defense, that's ridiculous. He leads the league in deflections for 6 years in a row now (for centers), leads the league by far in kick balls, always good with steals, and has a really high BBIQ. He easily calls out and stops other offensive plays just through communication alone.

[QUOTE=Manny98;14990153]LeBron, MJ & Jokic are the top 3 best[/QUOTE]

Manny my guy :rockon:

Jokic and Curry are like mirrors of themselves from opposite ends of the positional line up spectrum.

Both offensive dynamos, Yolk more consistent, Chef more explosive, both above average defense impact despite an incorrect stigma that exists.

Both top 10 GOATs at the end of their careers. Guys like Magic and Bird are kind of slipping a little because you can't cry defense there when we pull the playoff numbers.

Steve Kerr just said Jokic is the best center he's ever seen.