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[QUOTE=sbw19][COLOR=Teal][B]I don't believe he can realize CP3 has had better two first playoff games than both of these guys and definitely has the potential of eclipsing both when all is said and done.[/B][/COLOR][/QUOTE]
I believe in [B]reasonability, objectivity, empirical evidence, and balanced criteria[/B].
If you want to go into a long intelligent debate, maybe then you can take out your bias, see both sides, and choose, and I'm sure you'll see KJ is the choice.
[QUOTE=Glove_20]I believe in [B]reasonability, objectivity, empirical evidence, and balanced criteria[/B].
If you want to go into a long intelligent debate, maybe then you can take out your bias, see both sides, and choose, and I'm sure you'll see KJ is the choice.[/QUOTE]
Since this is Chris Paul's first time in the playoffs, there was no way of knowing how he would play. He has played very well so far. Kevin Johnson was a great player and you brought up some good points, but it is far too soon to compare a 22 year old Chris Paul with guys like Gary Payton and Kevin Johnson.
[QUOTE=B-Jax]Since this is Chris Paul's first time in the playoffs, there was no way of knowing how he would play. He has played very well so far. Kevin Johnson was a great player and you brought up some good points, but it is far too soon to compare a 22 year old Chris Paul with guys like Gary Payton and Kevin Johnson.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I agree. No doubt CP3 has the potential to pass both players. I'm just saying right now he isn't above either of them.
But there is no doubt CP3 is something special.
[QUOTE=Glove_20]
2nd of all KJ actually has a higher FT% careerwise than Paul, and got to the line much more often.
Not to mention the fact that KJ's FG% has always been higher than Paul's during KJ's peak.
QUOTE]
Give Paul a few more years, he is only 22. Of course he got to the line more than Paul has.
And his FG% was higher during his peak? So what, CP3 hasn't even hit his yet. Give it time.
[QUOTE=Glove_20]I believe in [B]reasonability, objectivity, empirical evidence, and balanced criteria[/B].
If you want to go into a long intelligent debate, maybe then you can take out your bias, see both sides, and choose, and I'm sure you'll see KJ is the choice.[/QUOTE]
If that were true you wouldn't discount like a significantly higher assist to turnover ratio (3.2 to 4.6), less of an impact on the offense as a whole (Johnson contributing to under 40% of the Suns offense that season to Paul contributing to nearly 50% of the Hornets this season), and signficantly more steals (Johnson didn't even get over 100). Plus he wasn't the main focal point of the Suns offense that season either (Tom Chambers was a 2000 point scorer). It was a very good season, but taken in the context of the era that he played in, it wasn't more impressive than Paul's season. He was more turnover prone than Paul and less of the catalyst in the Suns offense.
[QUOTE=LuCKy_JuNiOr]
Give Paul a few more years, he is only 22. Of course he got to the line more than Paul has.
And his FG% was higher during his peak? So what, CP3 hasn't even hit his yet. Give it time.[/QUOTE]
Yes I agree with that. I'm not saying by any view that Paul will never surpass KJ or GP. No way am I saying that.
However I'm just saying right now he isn't at KJ or GP's level.
[QUOTE=steve]If that were true you wouldn't discount like a significantly higher assist to turnover ratio (3.2 to 4.6), less of an impact on the offense as a whole (Johnson contributing to under 40% of the Suns offense that season to Paul contributing to nearly 50% of the Hornets this season), and signficantly more steals (Johnson didn't even get over 100). Plus he wasn't the main focal point of the Suns offense that season either (Tom Chambers was a 2000 point scorer). It was a very good season, but taken in the context of the era that he played in, it wasn't more impressive than Paul's season. He was more turnover prone than Paul and less of the catalyst in the Suns offense.[/QUOTE]
At the same time, who was able to run his offense better? Who was able to bring more success to his offense? I mean that's a PG's job too isn't it?
Kevin Johnson brought out the best from his teammate Tom Chambers. Chambers though had some good years in Seattle, had his best years with KJ and the Suns. He even once said in his Ring Ceremony (Unrelated to KJ), that "KJ made me the player I am today"
Comparing the player to their respective offense has a flaw because the Sun's offense was better than the Hornet's offense. And many times it's up to the PG to decide how good their offense will be.
I pointed out another year where KJ got 2.1spg, 22/10, with a 52% FG.
But steals shouldn't be that important in defense, and KJ has been an underrated defender all his career.
[QUOTE=Glove_20]Yes I agree with that. I'm not saying by any view that Paul will never surpass KJ or GP. No way am I saying that.
However I'm just saying right now he isn't at KJ or GP's level.[/QUOTE]
He'll have to play in at least two or three playoffs before he can be on Johnson's and Payton's level. These guys were in the playoffs regularly from 1992-1998.
[QUOTE=Glove_20]Yes I agree with that. I'm not saying by any view that Paul will never surpass KJ or GP. No way am I saying that.
However I'm just saying right now he isn't at KJ or GP's level.[/QUOTE]
I understand what you're trying to say, IMO Paul will surpass that level, but it's just too early to even compare, I mean this kid is still only 22.
It's going to be scary seeing him in his prime.
[quote=Glove_20][COLOR=Gray][B]Well first of all nobody took 3 pointers in the late 80s to early 90s. So you can't blame KJ for that. Back in the later parts of the 90s when 3s were starting to be taken, KJ shot over 40% regularly.
2nd of all KJ actually has a higher FT% careerwise than Paul, and got to the line much more often.
Not to mention the fact that KJ's FG% has always been higher than Paul's during KJ's peak.
So don't know where you got that? And to finish it off KJ also had a higher ppg.
What were you saying again? KJ scores more, higher FG%, and higher FT%, and hit a higher % of his 3s when he took them regularly like the rest of the league.
Did you have an argument? :oldlol:[/B] [/COLOR] [/quote] [COLOR=Teal][B]
Well it's hard not to have an argument when Paul's shooting numbers (FG/3PT/FT) in his third season at the age of 22 are better than all of KJ's seasons except two. And you can't blame Paul for shooting the 3 well above his career 33% average this season while KJ is a 30% career 3pt shooter and for the vast majority of his career shot below 30%.
Paul in his third season averages 21.1ppg (Hornets averaged 100.9ppg) on 48.8FG%/36.93PT%/85.1FT%, 4rpg, 11.6apg (leads league), 2.7spg (leads league) & 2.5tpg.
KJ in his third season averaged 22.5 ppg (Phoenix averaged 110.1ppg) on 49.9FG%/19.53PT%(took 41 3pters)/83.8FT%, 3.6 rpg, 11.4 apg, 1.28 spg & 3.55tpg.
So you can see Paul's numbers this season which is his third are better than KJ's third season at more or less the same age (turns 23 next may) in a slower-paced era, and his performances in his first two playoff games rival not only KJ's best but also those of point guards regarded much higher than him.
And if you think he won't have a better career than KJ based on what he's capable of right now then all you have to do is watch him play ball in the playoffs for the next ten years.[/B][/COLOR]
Glove... I'm missing something. You keep posting season stat comparisons between Paul and Johnson where KJs are equal to or worse than Paul's and saying that shows he's better?
[quote=Glove_20][COLOR=Gray][B]I believe in reasonability, objectivity, empirical evidence, and balanced criteria.
If you want to go into a long intelligent debate, maybe then you can take out your bias, see both sides, and choose, and I'm sure you'll see KJ is the choice.[/B][/COLOR] [/quote]
[COLOR=Teal][B]You could use some of your own advice, you know.[/B][/COLOR]
Chris Paul also tied KJ in the most playoff games in a row with 30-10 at 2 in a row. MJ has 3, these are his first two games, that's unbelievable.
[quote=LuCKy_JuNiOr][COLOR=Gray][B]Chris Paul also tied KJ in the most playoff games in a row with 30-10 at 2 in a row. MJ has 3, these are his first two games, that's unbelievable.[/B][/COLOR][/quote]
[COLOR=Teal][B]Tell the guy. He's just full of it. :confusedshrug:[/B][/COLOR]
[QUOTE=sbw19][COLOR=Teal][B]Tell the guy. He's just full of it. :confusedshrug:[/B][/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Chris Paul is the best PG right now. KJ was back then, until CP3 hits his prime and slows down afterwards, then we can compare the numbers, but right now it's irrelevant to me.
I mean he played 13 years? And Paul is in his 3rd?
CP3 ether'ering J. Kidd is similar to when Tony Parker/Chauncey Billups ether'ed Gary Payton. The end result being, that they are done as top flight defenders (obviously).
I don't find it disrespectful at all, with what Cp3 did.
[quote=LuCKy_JuNiOr][COLOR=Gray][B]Chris Paul is the best PG right now. KJ was back then, until CP3 hits his prime and slows down afterwards, then we can compare the numbers, but right now it's irrelevant to me.
I mean he played 13 years? And Paul is in his 3rd?[/B][/COLOR][/quote]
[COLOR=Teal][B]True, you can't compare their careers yet because Paul's has just started. But the guy's acting like KJ was at a whole different level. That's where I believe he's wrong, and I told him why.[/B][/COLOR]
[QUOTE=sbw19][COLOR=Teal][B]
Well it's hard not to have an argument when Paul's shooting numbers (FG/3PT/FT) in his third season at the age of 22 are better than all of KJ's seasons except two. And you can't blame Paul for shooting the 3 well above his career 33% average this season while KJ is a 30% career 3pt shooter and for the vast majority of his career shot below 30%.
Paul in his third season averages 21.1ppg (Hornets averaged 100.9ppg) on 48.8FG%/36.93PT%/85.1FT%, 4rpg, 11.6apg (leads league), 2.7spg (leads league) & 2.5tpg.
KJ in his third season averaged 22.5 ppg (Phoenix averaged 110.1ppg) on 49.9FG%/19.53PT%(took 41 3pters)/83.8FT%, 3.6 rpg, 11.4 apg, 1.28 spg & 3.55tpg.
So you can see Paul's numbers this season which is his third are better than KJ's third season at more or less the same age (turns 23 next may) in a slower-paced era, and his performances in his first two playoff games rival not only KJ's best but also those of point guards regarded much higher than him.
And if you think he won't have a better career than KJ based on what he's capable of right now then all you have to do is watch him play ball in the playoffs for the next ten years.[/B][/COLOR][/QUOTE]
1. Once again you missed the point that the 3pt shot wasn't used back then. Many of KJ's 3 point attempts would then be half court, or full court shots. Which obviously bring down the 3pt % and therefore it's inaccurate to use that into context.
2. I don't see how Paul's numbers are better. KJ scored more, and scored more efficiently. Which was something you brought up earlier. KJ has a higher FG% (Most important). Here is another statistic that measures "efficient scoring"
[B]Points Per Shot:
C.Paul: 1.31
K.Johnson: 1.43[/B]
KJ averaged more points, and was more efficient in terms of scoring. FG%, PPG, P/S, show that.
3. :oldlol:
Saying that KJ's performances in the playoffs haven't been as good as CP3's is hilarious. You obviously have never seen a Peak KJ.
Legends like Kevin Johnson stepped up in the playoffs and delivered big performances in the playoffs regularly.
4. I definately think Paul has a good potential to surpass KJ someday. I'm not a h@ter.
[QUOTE=sbw19][COLOR=Teal][B]True, you can't compare their careers yet because Paul's has just started. But the guy's acting his KJ was at a whole different level. That's where I believe he's wrong, and I told him why.[/B][/COLOR][/QUOTE]
I've repeatedly said that it's a very close comparison right now, and that Paul has a good potential to surpass KJ.
Do you want me to post all the times I have said that in this thread.
Or will you post where I said it's not even close and KJ is on a different level.
[QUOTE=Glove_20]At the same time, who was able to run his offense better? Who was able to bring more success to his offense? I mean that's a PG's job too isn't it? [/QUOTE]
Considering that the Hornets have a much smaller margin for error than the Suns, Paul has to not only be there main scorer and get the rest of teammates involved, his assist to turnover ratio is significantly better than Johnson's (his best season while averaging over 10 assists was a 3.2 assist to turnover ratio, while it's a good a/t ratio, it's nowhere in the ballpark of 4.6), Paul's assist ratio is a good bit higher (Johnson's never going over 44%, while Paul's this season was at 52%) and considering that he's contributes more to the offense than Johnson did. You try to mention that his field goal percentage is greater than Paul's but their trusFG% isn't that far off (Johnson's was hovering a little above 58% while Paul's is a little under 58%). Johnson has more career achievements (which is to be assumed considering he's finished his career), in the context of the eras they played in, he never had as good a season.
We could go on, but I have to go.
But I'll bring GMAT along nextime, and then we will have a very intelligent debate about Kevin Johnson and how good he is. I just heard from him right now, and he said that in KJ's first playoff series, [B]KJ put up 30.7ppg and 13.0 assists[/B]. And KJ was in his 2nd year just turned 23.
But someday, ISH will see, and open their eyes to how great KJ was.
[QUOTE=Glove_20]We could go on, but I have to go.
But I'll bring GMAT along nextime, and then we will have a very intelligent debate about Kevin Johnson and how good he is. I just heard from him right now, and he said that in KJ's first playoff series, [B]KJ put up 30.7ppg and 13.0 assists[/B]. And KJ was in his 2nd year just turned 23.
But someday, ISH will see, and open their eyes to how great KJ was.[/QUOTE]
Being a Sun's fan, I know how great he was, I just don't think it's time to debate it.
Also I think I have established myself in the few days that I have been here as a non-biased basketball fan. CP3 is a great player and seems to have a lot more in him. And KJ was an excellent player during his time, just let's enjoy the playoffs, worry about the past when Paul is in it.
[QUOTE=steve]Considering that the Hornets have a much smaller margin for error than the Suns, Paul has to not only be there main scorer and get the rest of teammates involved, his assist to turnover ratio is significantly better than Johnson's (his best season while averaging over 10 assists was a 3.2 assist to turnover ratio, while it's a good a/t ratio, it's nowhere in the ballpark of 4.6), Paul's assist ratio is a good bit higher (Johnson's never going over 44%, while Paul's this season was at 52%) and considering that he's contributes more to the offense than Johnson did. You try to mention that his field goal percentage is greater than Paul's but their trusFG% isn't that far off (Johnson's was hovering a little above 58% while Paul's is a little under 58%). Johnson has more career achievements (which is to be assumed considering he's finished his career), in the context of the eras they played in, he never had as good a season.[/QUOTE]
True that Paul has to do more, but at the same time you have to understand the reason KJ got more teammate help was because he brought out the best of their games and in turn they did more. Eddie Johnson, Hornacek, Chambers, all KJ's teammates, all had their best years with him. CP3 really hasn't brought out any more from anyone, however KJ brought more from each teammate. And that in turn led him to doing less overall. So it's unfair to penalize KJ for bringing and making his teammates do more and put up better numbers. Because that was also the result of KJ.
Paul's Passing/Playmaking efficiency is higher, KJ's scoring efficiency is higher, both got around same apg, KJ got a little higher ppg, it's a very close call. So let's leave it to playoff success?
In 1990 (The year we have been talking about)
Kevin Johnson first took his team past John Stockton and Malone's Jazz. And then he took them past Magic Johnson's Lakers (Lakers were still a good team in 1990), and went to the WCF.
Both Stockton and Magic had Home Court Advantage in the series by the way. [B]Yet KJ was still able to lead his team all the way to the WCF past 2 of the greatest PGs in History in the same here.[/B]
Think about that...
[QUOTE=LuCKy_JuNiOr]Being a Sun's fan, I know how great he was, I just don't think it's time to debate it.
Also I think I have established myself in the few days that I have been here as a non-biased basketball fan. CP3 is a great player and seems to have a lot more in him. And KJ was an excellent player during his time, just let's enjoy the playoffs, worry about the past when Paul is in it.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I don't think it's time to debate it either. I just came in and saw comparisons, and I didn't want everyone thinking CP3 right now is better than KJ ever was, and hold that as a fact.
[QUOTE=Glove_20]Yeah I don't think it's time to debate it either. I just came in and saw comparisons, and I didn't want everyone thinking CP3 right now is better than KJ ever was, and hold that as a fact.[/QUOTE]
I'm not criticizing you at all, alright? Haha, I just voiced my opinion and honestly I agree with what you have shown and the comparisons, I just don't think it's time. And you agree with that as well. So all is good, it's just the biased kids that ruin forums.
Oh and just to add to a topic a little more relevant to the thread.
Kidd's defense has always been overrated and it's not surprise what is happening here. Not to say Kidd right now is anywhere near his prime on the defensive end, but Kidd has always been overrated on defense.
[QUOTE=Glove_20]Yeah I don't think it's time to debate it either. I just came in and saw comparisons, and I didn't want everyone thinking CP3 right now is better than KJ ever was, and hold that as a fact.[/QUOTE]
cp3 averge more stls and has a better asts to TO ratio.while kj has him in FG% and ppg by 1pt.so ur cliam about ever was is dumb
bump -- please see original post
[QUOTE=demons2005]Paul is fast becoming the most overrated player I've ever seen. He doesn't have the killer instinct of a winner. If he's hot he's good but if things stop going away he falls apart faster then anyone and drags his impressionable team right down with him. There is too much talent on that roster to have a hothead running team I often wonder what would happen if New Orleans had managed to snag Deron[/QUOTE]
this is one of the dumbest things written in the history of writing. no offense.
If you want the hype to stop, then tell CP to stop dominating.
[QUOTE=SourGrapes]you say that like pau is a scrub![/QUOTE]
He said that like all those guys are scrubs.
I never said they weren't good..
I am just sying Avery makes them look much better than they are..
[quote=Glove_20][COLOR=Gray][B]1. Once again you missed the point that the 3pt shot wasn't used back then. Many of KJ's 3 point attempts would then be half court, or full court shots. Which obviously bring down the 3pt % and therefore it's inaccurate to use that into context.
2. I don't see how Paul's numbers are better. KJ scored more, and scored more efficiently. Which was something you brought up earlier. KJ has a higher FG% (Most important). Here is another statistic that measures "efficient scoring"
[/B][B]Points Per Shot:
C.Paul: 1.31
K.Johnson: 1.43
KJ averaged more points, and was more efficient in terms of scoring. FG%, PPG, P/S, show that.
3. :oldlol:
Saying that KJ's performances in the playoffs haven't been as good as CP3's is hilarious. You obviously have never seen a Peak KJ.
Legends like Kevin Johnson stepped up in the playoffs and delivered big performances in the playoffs regularly.
4. I definately think Paul has a good potential to surpass KJ someday. I'm not a h@ter.[/B][/COLOR] [/quote]
[COLOR=Teal][B]1. I didn't miss your point. I just believe KJ wasn't a good 3pt shooter for the vast majority of his career, othewise it'd have showed. True, 3pt shot wasn't a shot teams used back then as frequently as teams use it now, but to say KJ mostly attempted halfcourt 3pters for the first eight years is ludicrous. Why don't you show us a youtube of him hitting a dazzling 20% of his halfcourt 3s? No. Actually players who were good at shooting the 3 shot it well regardless of the #s of attempts (Kerr was a teammate of KJ's on that Suns team, attemped 17 3s, made 8). And players who were good at it used it frequently and used it well. Eddie Johnson johnson shot 71/172 from 3pt land in 88 for example. He's one of four Suns players who shot 33% or better from 3pt land while KJ shot 2/22 (don't you think given how exemplary a pg he was he'd recognize he'd best pass the rock to them cuz they had a better chance of making these endless half court shot instead of taking them himself? Or was he just too unselfish and didn't want them to shoot poor 3s?). Ever heard of Dale Ellis? Mullin? Hornacek? Marjerle? Don't tell me players who shot the 3 well didn't use it back then. Heck even Tom Chambers shot threes and shot them better than KJ.
2. Double steals, much lower TOs, high rpg, apg, almost as efficient scoring (see below) and you don't see he's had better numbers? KJ averages 1pt more on a team averaging 9 more than the Hornets. That's due to pace like I said earlier, but of course you'd turn a blind eye to that cuz KJ was 'better' and no way he can't be. Fact: KJ scored 20.4% of his teams pts in his third season (44.4% of assists). CP3 scored 20.9% of his teams pts (53.2% of assists), meaning he'd average more pts and assists had the Hornets played at the same pace at which that Suns team played.
And if you want to use statistics to prove which player shot better from the floor, at least you could've use them right. You said:
[/B][B]Points Per Shot:
C.Paul: 1.31
K.Johnson: 1.43
(Points per shot) doesn't measure your true shooting percentage (ts%). It strictly measures how many points you score for every FG you attempt regardless of how many FTs you attempt. Meaning PLAYER X can have a higher PPS than PLAYER Y simply by taking less shots and going to the line more even though he is not actually shooting a higher ts%. Heck, It doesn't even measure how well you shoot from the field or the FT line, because theoretically a player who averages 5/10fga (assuming all are 2pters) and 1/2fta has a lower PPS than a player who averages 1/3fga and 12/20fta despite having a high ts%.
True Shooting Percentage; the formula is PTS / (2 * (FGA + 0.44 * FTA)
Paul's ts%: 57.6
KJ ts%: 58.9
So KJ's shooting was in fact slightly better and I was wrong about that. But I still believe Paul's had the better stats overall given he has better everything else (yeah keep arguing, their numbers are laid out nicely and they prove me right :)).
3. When did I say that? Quote please. I said Paul's performance in his first two playoff games rivals the best of KJ's.
[/B][/COLOR]
[QUOTE=FabCasablancas]I never said they weren't good..
I am just sying Avery makes them look much better than they are..[/QUOTE]
I'd also blame Kidd.
He's clearly too old to keep up with Paul.
[quote=Glove_20][COLOR=Gray][B]I've repeatedly said that it's a very close comparison right now, and that Paul has a good potential to surpass KJ.
Do you want me to post all the times I have said that in this thread.
Or will you post where I said it's not even close and KJ is on a different level.[/B][/COLOR] [/quote]
[COLOR=Teal][B]I said acting like. Yes to your credit you did say it's close several times, but you also got all defensive about KJ when I said Paul's play in his first two playoff games rival the best of KJ's playoff performances which's also true.[/B][/COLOR]
I don't care CP and Howard are becoming great players. We're watching the start of two legends.