30 minute Lebron video and a totally statless case for him to be top 20 ever. Today.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You speak of consistency while disregarding the largest sample size in favor of matchups that represent what a guy does for a matter of weeks(or in Kobes case sometimes one week)? The playoffs matter more but when we are comparing players vs two totally different groups of opponents(with 2 exceptions) on very different teams? In the playoffs a team can focus all it has on one player depending on what his teammates can do to make the mpay. You know in game 7 vs the Pistons in 06 Lebron scored himself or assisted on all but 7 shots the Cavs made? The entire team aside from him managed to get 7 shots into the basket. We have seen in the playoffs Lebron(and Kobe on occasion) get doubled all game just daring the others to win the game. Lebron next game after he scored the 29 in a row was as doubled as any non bigman ive ever seen. Kobe got some right across halfcourt doubles vs the suns. Teams totally change how they play a guy in the playoffs over 6-7 games. Its not an accurate idea of what a guy does night in night out in the NBA.

In 08 Kobe shot under 40% 30 times. 24 in 07. 26 in 06. He managed it 23 times in just 66 games in 05 while Lebron coming into the season at age 19 did it 13 times in 80 games. Kobe damn near doubled him up in fewer games.

Lebron had 13 this year, 17 in 08, 29 in 07 and 18 in 06 . The only year he surpassed Kobe he played 20 playoff games to get there while Kobe went out in the first round(Kobe played an extra 7 this year.). And in 06 Kobe is out first round while Lebron plays 13 playoff games and still cant catch up.

I dont even see how this is an argument. We all see how they play. Kobes game is based on his jumper falling. As good as he is you just cant rely on that the way you can Lebron getting to the basket.

And thats not even the entire reason id rather have Lebron.

I dont see much of a reason to go with Kobe really.Lebron has been roughly as good or a better defender for 2 years. Hes a better passer(not to be confused with just getting assists). Ive heard little drama and few claims of him being difficult with teammates. Worst ive heard of Lebron was Gooden jokingly saying that in Chicago they share the ball. Then as he got the ball more he started to suck...Bulls fans hated him...and he ends up on the Spurs(5th team in 7 years) getting 8 minutes total over 2 playoff games.....anyway. Kobe is better at making difficult shots but I dont value the making of bad shots over the making of easy ones when I can rely on those shots. Not talking about a Dwight easy shot like a dunk that you cant really predict. You can give Lebron the ball...move out of his way...and he will score or get fouled at a fantastic rate. Its almost a lock.

hes the most individually dominant and unstoppable swingman ive seen since Jordan in his youth and if he isnt...Wade is. I can see someone saying Kobe is better or more skilled but not more effective.

Sure he won the title but he did so on the most talented team in the league. Wade won it all on a team with less than Kobe had to work with. And Lebron led a finals team that had no more talent than the ones Kobe missed the playoffs with and lost in the first round. The only player aside from Bron on the Cavs 07 roster id even take on the Bulls right now(in 07 form even) is Z. Gibson when thej umper is falling but really...hes the Bulls #3 guard at best.

The Cavs team he took to the finals was simply abominable(by finals team standards). Really....would you rather have the entire 07 Cavs supporting cast or just the second best player from any finals team of the last 5 years?

Gasol
Pierce
Lewis
Parker
Howard
Billups/Ben Wallace
Shaq/Kobe(questionable by 2004)


Josh Howard is the only second option id even consider trading for their whole 07 roster...and id end up saying no just to dodge Larry Hughes. Larry Hughes managed to shoot 31 and 35% in back to back playoffs....

Lebron did work with a lottery team. And he just led another one to the most wins ever by a team with nearly that little talent to work with. Dirk didnt have a huge amount but give me Howard and terry over the entire Cavs roster. They arent even talented on defense as some claim. Ben Wallace is pushing 60 and anderson is a talented defender as is West but really...they more talented on D than the Bulls with Hinrich, Hunter, Tyrus, Deng, and Noah? More than the Bobcats were with Wallace, Emeka, and Raja?

The Cavs arent expecially good at anything but giving the ball to Lebron to win them games.

That hes done what he has wit hthose teams gives me little reason to doubt he could win with almost anything I give him to work with. A guy who can get to the basket as if nothing is in his way is always easy to build around. Give him 2 shooters and 2 bigmen who can catch and you can win games.

Lebron just seems like a far better pick to start a team...even throwing out age.[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to go point by point to debate you; I'm just going to disagree with a few things I read.

You use FG% to argue that Lebron is a more consistent performer. FG% is a flawed stat. It takes into account neither 3PA nor FT%. Since Kobe has taken more 3's than Lebron every year but the last, and not by a small amount, his FG% is naturally going to be lower. Kobe averaged over 5 3PA per game 4 of the last 5 years and one of those years he averaged over 6. Lebron has never averaged over 5. Since Kobe's FT% has been and is significantly better than Lebron's he gets more out of his trips to the line. If you use TS% which takes into account FT% and 3PA, Kobe has been the more efficient player 4 of the 6 years Lebron has been in the league.

The second point I'd like to argue is that Lebron had little better than "lottery worthy" talent last year. Mo Williams put up 18/3/4 on 47% last year. Delonte west was an extremely good defender as well as putting up 12/3/4 on 46%. Ilgauskas, while too slow to gaurd more mobile centers, still put up 13/8. These aren't trash players. Andy is little more than a glorified hustle player to my mind but he is a good post defender. The idea that Lebron has no talent on his team is ridiculous. His team won 66 games for a reason. Mike brown has an excellent defensive scheme and a good collection of talent to work with. If you'd like to dispute that I'll point you to the last game of the season, when they sat out Mo Williams, Lebron, Big Z, and Ben Wallace and STILL almost managed to beat the 76er's, a playoff team.

As to the rest I haven't got time to deal with it now maybe another time.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]I'm not going to go point by point to debate you; I'm just going to disagree with a few things I read.

You use FG% to argue that Lebron is a more consistent performer. FG% is a flawed stat. It takes into account neither 3PA nor FT%. Since Kobe has taken more 3's than Lebron every year but the last, and not by a small amount, his FG% is naturally going to be lower. Kobe averaged over 5 3PA per game 4 of the last 5 years and one of those years he averaged over 6. Lebron has never averaged over 5. Since Kobe's FT% has been and is significantly better than Lebron's he gets more out of his trips to the line. If you use TS% which takes into account FT% and 3PA, Kobe has been the more efficient player 4 of the 6 years Lebron has been in the league.

The second point I'd like to argue is that Lebron had little better than "lottery worthy" talent last year. Mo Williams put up 18/3/4 on 47% last year. Delonte west was an extremely good defender as well as putting up 12/3/4 on 46%. Ilgauskas, while too slow to gaurd more mobile centers, still put up 13/8. These aren't trash players. Andy is little more than a glorified hustle player to my mind but he is a good post defender. The idea that Lebron has no talent on his team is ridiculous. His team won 66 games for a reason. Mike brown has an excellent defensive scheme and a good collection of talent to work with. If you'd like to dispute that I'll point you to the last game of the season, when they sat out Mo Williams, Lebron, Big Z, and Ben Wallace and STILL almost managed to beat the 76er's, a playoff team.

As to the rest I haven't got time to deal with it now maybe another time.[/QUOTE]
I'm not so sure about last years Cavs being better than lottery. The 2008 Bucks lead by Mo Williams had a season of 34 and 48 and failed to make the playoffs. That Bukcs roster if you look at it was very similar, no scratch that probably better than the Cavs roster outside of james. They have a similar C in Bogut, a much better wing player in Redd, Mo was slightly better last year then the year before, and CV was a player that we Cavs fans were praying for this season. The Bucks roster probably was more talented then the Cavs, and they only won 34 games.

I already said Kobe takes a lot more difficult shots. Threes being an example. And even last year with Bron taking more he still shot better. Besides taking 3s leading to a lot more misses isnt a positive thing for Kobe. If anything its evidence of his less reliable offense. The worse shots you take the less I can depend on you to make them.

And what is almost winning without the starters? You win or you dont. And if they had won...it wouldnt prove anything. Any 12 NBA player can win any game. Even the bad players would produce on a bad enough team.

The Cavs were simply terrible compared to most teams to win at nearly the rate they did, Who has won 66 games? The Lakers now, the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, the Mavs, Jordans Bulls, showtime, The 80s celtics, the 72 Lakers, the 67 78ers, The Cowens/Hondo/Jojo Celtics...maybe Kareems team with Oscar. Great...GREAT teams. The Cavs supporting cast is a joke compared to all but one team I can think of to approach their level of wins and thats the 07 Mavs...and id take Howard/Terry/Stackhouse/Harris over the Cavs lineup 9 of 10 times.

you did not type all that sh[B]i[/B]t

J.Cole :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

"Now I was dreamin' for a deal at the age of 13..."

"I was like a young Simba couldn't wait to be king"

Lupe

"Look up in the skyyyyyyy"

[QUOTE=barbaroi]If you'd like to dispute that I'll point you to the last game of the season, when they sat out Mo Williams, Lebron, Big Z, and Ben Wallace and STILL almost managed to beat the 76er's, a playoff team.[/QUOTE]

Just one game ...

It was an anomally.

Darnell Jackson played 42 minutes. Lorenzen Wright played 35 minutes. Jawad Williams played as much as Varejao (10 minutes). Sasha Pavlovic and Wally Szcerbiak played more than 40 minutes. Do you really think those guys are good ????? It was a miracle that the game was even close.

I should have waited and used ross on a bron video now. Its just begging to be done....

[B]Barkley was a better "PURE" Scorer (2-Point FG% will back it up) and Offensive (ORT too) Player than Lebron. Barkley actually had "Lateral Movement and a Monster Post Game". Regarding length that is what Lebron had over Barkley which makes him similar to Karl Malone: who was a fast break catch and finish player, thats it.[/B]

I don't like your logic of "who would you take over LeBron to start a team". That's not how players are ranked all-time. This isn't a fantasy draft.

Also, given his recent history, I wouldn't take James over a few guys who he is perhaps better than (using your logic). All we know about LeBron leading a franchise so far is that he won't win you a championship despite posting huge stats... and after a few years of failing, he'll turn around and shit on your team.

I think I'll take a guy who stays loyal his whole career, but may not be as good (using your logic of ranking guys by who you would start a franchise with).

[QUOTE=bdreason]Also, given his recent history, I wouldn't take James over a few guys who he is perhaps better than (using your logic). All we know about LeBron leading a franchise so far is that he won't win you a championship despite posting huge stats... and after a few years of failing, he'll turn around and shit on your team.

I think I'll take a guy who stays loyal his whole career, but may not be as good (using your logic of ranking guys by who you would start a franchise with).[/QUOTE]

James never had the talent around him to win championships. Seriously, if somehow they won a ring.... that would go down as a greater accomplishment than either Duncan in 03 or Hakeem leading his team. It would be the worst supporting cast to ever help a superstar win.

[QUOTE=Carbine]James never had the talent around him to win championships. Seriously, if somehow they won a ring.... that would go down as a greater accomplishment than either Duncan in 03 or Hakeem leading his team. It would be the worst supporting cast to ever help a superstar win.[/QUOTE]


Then how did they win 60+ games?


Worse than AI's Sixers? Worse than Hakeem's Rockets?

:roll:

His team last year was better than the 94 rockets and 01 sixers. But 06-09? Id take 01 Mutombo over the entire roster Bron aside. Jamison makes a difference....but im not sure he would lead to more winning than having Mutombo to build my D around.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]




Sure he won the title but he did so on the most talented team in the league. [/QUOTE]
lol. Watch the 09 and 2010 playoff runs. There were several teams with an similar amounts of talent (Nuggets,Magic,08 Nuggets with A.I and Melo, 08 Jazz,Boston). I swear Bryant is the only one who in history who consistently gets knocked for having great supporting casts. :roll:

Biggest waste of 5 minutes of my life reading complete crap.