There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Yeah, and he came back the following year and they performed slightly worse in the playoffs (Pippen+Grant outperformed Pippen+Jordan in 95'). What is your point? When Grant left the team went from a 55 win team to a 45 win team. When Pippen got hurt for half a season they went form a 69 win team to a 55 win team. :lol at everyone who acts if MJ's subtraction is the only one that would impact the Bulls when the facts clearly show otherwise.

Plus most non-MJ fans know why the Bulls "lost" in the second round...[/QUOTE]

If Jordan LEAVING abruptly before the 93-94 season left the bulls in a lurch, his RETURNING EVEN MORE ABRUPTLY in the 94-95 season left a lot to be sorted out for a team built around Pippen. Jordan did not exactly mesh completely with that team and was, as both Pippen and Phil mentioned after the playoffs, not exactly in prime basketball shape.

[QUOTE=Soothsayer]If Jordan LEAVING abruptly before the 93-94 season left the bulls in a lurch, his RETURNING EVEN MORE ABRUPTLY in the 94-95 season left a lot to be sorted out for a team built around Pippen. Jordan did not exactly mesh completely with that team and was, as both Pippen and Phil mentioned after the playoffs, not exactly in prime basketball shape.[/QUOTE]

agreed. its idiotic to pretend like the bulls were firing on all cylinders going into the playoffs in 95.

also....a big LOL at anyone that thinks the Bulls team in 94 had any chance at all to win a title. No way in hell guys....not even a chance. The playoffs are different than the regular season.....why is this concept so hard to understand?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Their winning percentage was on par with a 56 win team without him for half a season. This is reasonable speculation based on what the team did. I didn't pull out numbers from nowhere and say they would have won 75 if he played all year.

[B]No, it is not reasonable. You said when Grant left, the bulls went from 55 to 45 wins, not mentioning that record would have been worse had MJ not returned. To falsify the bulls 97-98 record to suit your purposes is very disingenuous at best. The bulls went from 69 to 62 wins with Pip missing half the season and Jordan playing at 34-35 years old with a torn ligament.[/B]


:oldlol: There is a reason it only happened once. The 97' Bulls>the 94' Bulls and could not win 70.

[B]yes, but the one time it DID happen, the players were VERY similar to what they would have been on a 93-94 bulls team with a younger, better Jordan on it, who had ALREADY led a team to 67 wins. 70 is quite reasonable.[/B]



:wtf:




Jordan did play in 95' and his team lost in the second round (legitimately) this time.

[B]yes, Jordan played...after having just returned from retirement and not in prime basketball shape, nor having meshed with a team built around pippen.[/B]



And? One word: dilution. The championship teams this decade generally have had less talent than the 90's Bulls. Look at the Spurs teams.

[B]Mere opinion. Many would disagree. Once again, nobody was talking about the "talent" on the bullls other than Jordan and an up and coming Pippen, before the bulls won the ring. Jordan won with Pippen and a bunch of role players 91-93.[/B]



Well, they were only 9-9 when he played and were swept in the playoffs...



You sound like Da_Realist...[/QUOTE]

[B]Who?[/B]

[QUOTE=Soothsayer]If Jordan LEAVING abruptly before the 93-94 season left the bulls in a lurch, his RETURNING EVEN MORE ABRUPTLY in the 94-95 season left a lot to be sorted out for a team built around Pippen. Jordan did not exactly mesh completely with that team and was, as both Pippen and Phil mentioned after the playoffs, not exactly in prime basketball shape.[/QUOTE]

They went 13-4 when MJ came back on top of a 11-6 post-ASG record prior to MJ's return. All in all, a 24-10 close to the season. Jordan averaged 31 ppg on something like 48% in the playoffs.

[QUOTE]LOL at anyone that thinks the Bulls team in 94 had any chance at all to win a title. No way in hell guys....not even a chance. The playoffs are different than the regular season.....why is this concept so hard to understand?[/QUOTE]

Do you think the Knicks had "no chance"? Do you know how the Knicks "won" against the Bulls? Do you know how close the Knicks-Rockets series was? The Bulls were considered legit title contenders that year by everyone, although MJ fans like to revise history today.

MJ had plenty of chances to win all by himself and had another chance in 99' but quit. So what? He is a legend. Why insist, though, that he did what he never came close to doing in reality?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Their winning percentage was on par with a 56 win team without him for half a season (maybe they should have replaced him with Pete Myers? :oldlol: ). This is reasonable speculation based on what the team did. I didn't pull out numbers from nowhere and say they would have won 75 if he played all year.



:oldlol: There is a reason it only happened once. The 97' Bulls>the 94' Bulls and could not win 70.



:wtf: Obviously you did not watch in 94'. They were battling for the #1 seed all year and would have had it without Pip's injury early in the season and they were robbed against the Knicks in the playoffs and the Knicks came within 1 shot of a ring. To say they had "no shot" is ridiculous. 94' was a very competitive year and the Bulls were right in mix.



Jordan did play in 95' and his team lost in the second round (legitimately) this time.



And? One word: dilution. The championship teams this decade generally have had less talent than the 90's Bulls. Look at the Spurs teams.



Well, they were only 9-9 when he played and were swept in the playoffs...



You sound like Da_Realist...

[B]If the claims made about MJ are accurate none of this would be necessary. His record would suffice yet MJ fans to this day diminish his teammates incessantly.[/QUOTE][/B]

Not sure what "claims" you're referring to, but Jordan's career resume obviously stands on its own and convinces many that he is GOAT, or darn close. He certainly doesn't need me or anyone else defending him. I simply enjoy the debate. :cheers:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]They went 13-4 when MJ came back on top of a 11-6 post-ASG record prior to MJ's return. All in all, a 24-10 close to the season. Jordan averaged 31 ppg on something like 48% in the playoffs.



Do you think the Knicks had "no chance"? Do you know how the Knicks "won" against the Bulls? Do you know how close the Knicks-Rockets series was?

MJ had plenty of chances to win all by himself and had another chance in 99' but quit. So what? He is a legend. Why insist, though, that he did what he never came close to doing in reality?[/QUOTE]


Yes. I watched every second of the NBA playoffs that year. No team is ever going to win a title with Pippen as their best player. Sorry. 0% chance mate.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]They went 13-4 when MJ came back on top of a 11-6 post-ASG record prior to MJ's return. All in all, a 24-10 close to the season. Jordan averaged 31 ppg on something like 48% in the playoffs.

Yes, Jordan, retired for a year and a half, and not in basketball shape, could still put up good stats. But as Lebron knows, good stats aren't what it's about. Jordan had not formed chemistry with that team and was not in basketball shape.



Do you think the Knicks had "no chance"? Do you know how the Knicks "won" against the Bulls? Do you know how close the Knicks-Rockets series was?

The Bulls were considered legit title contenders that year by everyone.

MJ had plenty of chances to win all by himself and had another chance in 99' but quit. So what? He is a legend. Why insist, though, that he did what he never came close to doing in reality?[/QUOTE]

No players wins "by himself", so no, Jordan never had a chance to win "by himself". He won as the LEAD dawg, contributing hugely to his teams' success 6 times in 6 tries, never once losing to an underdog.

Unprecedented.

Bulls were one bad call from the finals without Jordan

He was the one that put them over the top, he willed them to win

[QUOTE=Horde of Temujin]Bulls were one bad call from the Eastern conference finals without Jordan[/QUOTE]

Corrected.

[QUOTE=Soothsayer]Corrected.[/QUOTE]


If the Bulls had beaten the Knicks that year, it would have been a shocking upset if the Pacers had knocked them off in the ECF. If the Bulls had beaten the Knicks, they would have been heavy favorites to return to the finals.



Question?



If I take Lebron off the Cavs, do they win 55 games and advance to the second round of the playoffs? Are they legit title contenders?

If not, then you must conclude Lebron's supporting cast is not as good as Jordan's.

Neither is Kobe's.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]I think everyone here is confusing things. The Bulls no doubt had a very good squad without Jordan. But they went from winning the title to losing in the 2nd round. To say Jordan is just top 5 is insane. Its not all about rings....let me say that again.....ITS NOT ALL ABOUT RINGS.

I am so sick and tired of hearing this debate going back and forth when everyone only factors in rings. Its much more about what kind of player you were. If Jordan had only won 3 titles.....most people would still consider him the best to ever play. Jordan averaged 33 points 6 boards and 6 assists for his career in the playoffs and was one of the ten best defenders the league has ever seen. He just brought his game up to another level compared to the other greats to play......bird/magic have no case against jordan whatsoever. Kareem has a legit argument for the GOAT....but that is about it. Its not just about rings....its about how well you play the game first and foremost. You can't discount any titles for a player that is clearly the alpha dog/leader of the team....its really hard to win in the NBA and if you lead a team to a title you deserve big time credit. Factor in that Jordan was able to accomplish what he did without a legit post presence in a defensive era much more difficult on perimeter player and you will start to realize why most consider him the best ever. If Jordan played his career over the last decade he would have easily averaged 38 points a game in the playoffs on the same number of shots because he would have been impossible to guard without fouling.

These players do not play in a vacuum. Are you going to penalize Magic for winning with Kareem or vice versa? Shaq for winning with Kobe or vice versa? Come on guys. [B]MJ was the best 2 way player of all time. One of the 3 best offensive players ever and one of the 10 greatest defensive players ever. He's easily one of the two best players ever[/B].[/QUOTE]

So,, Jordan was one of the three best offensive players ever, and one of the ten best defensive players ever...and that makes him at least #2. Who is #1?

How about this...

Defensive WIN-SHARES...

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html[/url]

Yes, Russell and his 11 rings is easily the best ever...BUT, who is #2 based on that list? Why, it is CLEARLY a guy by the name of Chamberlain.

Or a career list, in which Russell, Kareem (longevity), Olajuwon...and then Chamberlain. Where does MJ appear? #21.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html[/url]

How about Offensive Win Shares in a Career? Kareem (longevity), then Wilt.MK is 4th behind Oscar.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_career.html[/url]

Single-Season Offensive Win-Shares?

Kareem, then Wilt.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_season.html[/url]

How about Single-Season Win Shares? Kareem, then Wilt, several times over...

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_season.html[/url]

Career? Kareem (longevity), then Wilt, K. Malone, and finally Jordan at #5.

Here are some more ratings. and the explanation:

[url]http://www.databasebasketball.com/about/aboutstats.htm[/url]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"*** Efficiency is a new stat the NBA developed in 2002. It is calculated using the following formula: (pts*100)/((fta*.44) + fga + to - oreb)
Since Efficiency is calculated on a per game basis, it is good at seeing how well a particular player has performed, regardless of the number of games that the player has played during that season. For an estimate of a players value to his team for the entire season, Approximate Values can be used.

Approximate Value (AV)

Approximate Value (AV) was developed by Dean Oliver. You can read more about this formula and more at this website: [url]http://www.powerbasketball.com/theywin2.html[/url]

Here is a quick synopsis of AV values


Credits= PTS+REB+AST+STL+BLK-FG MISSED-FT MISSED-TO

AV= Credits^(3/4)/21

The Value Approximation Method was a major task to come up with, taking me about two months to finally arrive at satisfactory results. The plan for the method was to end up with a scale of integers between 0 and about 20 rating players, with 10 representing an 'average' player. It was to be based upon several standards a player was to meet in order to gain points of approximate value. The whole thing was modeled on Bill James' Value Approximation method for baseball. As James did, I assigned verbal descriptions to ranges of scores in order to see if the method produced results that matched general descriptions of players. Those descriptions are as follows:



A score of about twenty indicates an exceptional MVP season.
A score of seventeen or eighteen indicates a strong MVP candidate or an ordinary MVP season.
A score of sixteen indicates an MVP candidate.
A score of fifteen indicates a definite All-Star who is a marginal MVP candidate.
A score of fourteen indicates a probable All-Star.
A score of thirteen indicates a marginal All-Star.
A score of twelve indicates a very fine season; an All-Star candidate.
A score of eleven indicates an above average regular; an excellent player playing about 1800 minutes.
A score of ten indicates an average regular or a very good sixth man.
A score of nine indicates an average regular or a good sixth man.
A score of eight indicates a fair regular or an average sixth man.
A score of six or seven indicates an average bench player or a good player playing under 1500 minutes.
A score of four or five indicates a player who plays about 1000 minutes and who doesn't deserve many more.
Scores of three or less usually indicate players who are unimpressive in limited playing time.
Before the '73-74 season, steals (STL), blocks (BLK), and turnovers weren't kept as official stats. In the credits formula for player seasons before '73-74, those stats are just omitted as they tend to cancel each other out to some degree when included anyway. "[/COLOR]



How about EFF?

Whoa! Wilt in a LANDSLIDE! (He has the top-SEVEN seasons)

[url]http://www.databasebasketball.com/leaders/leadersseason.htm?stat=eff&lg=n[/url]

How about EFF in a Career? Chamberlain ROUTS the field, and MJ comes in at #8.

How about AV ratings? Single season...Chamberlain CRUSHES EVERYONE...SEVEN of the Top-8 seasons (Kareem at #7 on that list)

[url]http://www.databasebasketball.com/leaders/leadersseason.htm?stat=av&lg=n[/url]

AV Career? Kareem is #1 but it is based on longevity...and Wilt is #2. Jordan is #8.

How about the NBA Record Book...

Incidently this site is INCORRECT. It lists Wilt with 72 records. In ACTUALITY, it is somewhere around 130. BUT, for purposes of this discussion...it will do...

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Career_achievements_of_Wilt_Chamberlain[/url]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Chamberlain is holder of 72 NBA all-time records, 63 of which he holds by himself.[18] Among his records are several which are regarded as virtually unbreakable, such as averaging 22.9 rebounds for a career or 50.4 points in a regular season, scoring 100 points or 55 rebounds in a single game, scoring 65 points or more fifteen times, 50 or more points 118 times.[14][6] During Chamberlain's time, defensive statistics like blocks and steals had not been recorded yet. However, according to Jack Ramsay, "Harvey (Pollack) said he used to tell one of his statisticians to keep track of Wilt's blocks in big games... One night, they got up to 25".[19]

[edit] NBA scoring records
See also: List of National Basketball Association top individual scoring season averages
See also: List of National Basketball Association top rookie scoring averages
See also: List of National Basketball Association players with 60 or more points in a game
See also: List of individual National Basketball Association scoring leaders by season
NBA Record - Most Points Per Game in a season (50.4 in the 1961-62)
Chamberlain also holds the next two highest with 44.8 in 1962-63 and 38.4 in 1960-61.
NBA Record - Most Points in a season (4,029 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next highest with 3,586 in 1960-61
NBA Record - Most Points Scored in a Game (100 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
NBA Record - Most Points Scored in a Half (59 in the 2nd half vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
NBA Record - Most 50 Point Games in a season (45 times in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next most with 30 in 1962-63. No other player has had more than 10.
NBA Record - Most 40 Point Games in a season (63 times in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next most with 52 in 1962-63. Michael Jordan holds third with 37 in 1986-87.
NBA Record - Most Consecutive Seasons Leading League in Points Per Game (7)
Record shared with Michael Jordan.
NBA Record - Most Career Regular Season 60 Point Games (32 times)
Kobe Bryant is in second place with 5.
NBA Record - Most Career Regular Season 50 Point Games (118 times)
Michael Jordan is in second place with 31.
NBA Record - Most Career Regular Season 40 Point Games (271 times)[20]
Michael Jordan is in second place with 173.
NBA Record - Most Consecutive 50 Point Games (7 times from December 16, 1961-December 29, 1961)
Chamberlain also holds the next three longest with 6 in 1962, 5 in 1961, and 5 in 1962
NBA Record - Most Consecutive 40 Point Games (14 times from December 8, 1961-December 30, 1961 and also 14 times from January 11, 1962-February 1, 1962)
Chamberlain also has the next most with 10 from November 9, 1962 through November 25, 1962
NBA Record - Most Consecutive 30 Point Games (65 from November 4, 1961-February 22, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next two longest streaks with 31 in 1962 and 25 in 1960.
NBA Record - Most Consecutive 20 Point Games (126 from October 19, 1961-January 19, 1963)
Chamberlain holds the next most with 92 from February 26, 1963 through March 18, 1964.
NBA Record - Most points per game by a rookie (37.6 in 1959-60)
NBA Record - Most points by a rookie (2,707 in 1959-60)
NBA Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (58 on January 25, 1960 and 58 on February 21, 1960)
NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 20,000 Points (499 achieved in 1966)
Michael Jordan, at 620 games, took the second fewest games.
NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 25,000 Points (691, achieved on February 23, 1968 against the Detroit Pistons)
Michael Jordan, at 782 games, took the second fewest games.
NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 30,000 Points (941, achieved on February 16, 1972 against the Phoenix Suns).
NBA Record - Most consecutive seasons leading the league in field goals made (7 from 1959-60 through 1965-66)
Shared with Michael Jordan
NBA Record - Most Field Goals Made in a season (1,597 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next three spots with 1,463 in 1962-63, 1,251 in 1960-61, and 1,204 in 1963-64
NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a season (3,159 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next four highest with 2,770, 2,457, 2,311, and 2,298.
NBA Record - Most Field Goals Made in a Game (36 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next highest with 31, and is tied (with Rick Barry) at third with 30
NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a Game (63 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next two most with 62 and 60.
NBA Record - Most Field Goals Made in a Half (22 in the 2nd half vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a Half (37 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962 (2nd half)
NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a Quarter (21 in the 4th quarter vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
NBA Record - Most Free Throws Made in a Game (28 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
Record shared with Adrian Dantley
NBA Record - Most seasons leading the NBA in free throw attempts (9)
NBA Record - Most consecutive seasons leading the NBA in free throw attempts (6 from 1959-60 through 1964-65)
NBA Record - Most Free Throws Attempted in a season (1,363 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain also holds the next four spots with 1,113, 1,054, 1,016, and 991.
NBA Record - Most Free Throws Attempted in a Game (34 vs. the St. Louis Hawks on February 22, 1962)
Chamberlain also holds second place with 32 on March 2, 1962.
NBA Playoff Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (53 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 14, 1960)
Pulled down a rookie playoff record 35 rebounds in the same game.
Chamberlain also scored 50 as a rookie against the Boston Celtics on March 22, 1960.
NBA Playoff Record - Most field goals in a seven game series (113 vs. the St. Louis Hawks in 1964)
NBA Playoff Record - Most field goals in a game (24 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 14, 1960)
Record shared with John Havlicek and Michael Jordan
NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a game (48 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 22, 1962)
Record shared with Rick Barry
NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a half (25 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 22, 1962)
Record shared with Elgin Baylor and Michael Jordan
NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a three game series (104 vs. the Syracuse Nationals in 1960)
NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a five game series (159 vs. the Syracuse Nationals in 1962)
NBA All-Star Game Record - Points in a game (42 in 1962)
NBA All-Star Game Record - Field goals in a game (17 in 1962)
Record shared with Michael Jordan and Kevin Garnett
NBA All-Star Game Record - Field goals in a half (10 in 1962)
NBA All-Star Game Record - Free throw attempts in a game (16 in 1962)
Chamberlain also holds the second most attempts in an All-Star Game with 15 in 1960.
[edit] Other selected scoring facts
2nd highest career scoring average (30.06)

Continuing...

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Career_achievements_of_Wilt_Chamberlain[/url]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"NBA rebounding records
See also: List of National Basketball Association top individual rebounding season averages
See also: List of National Basketball Association top rookie rebounding averages
See also: List of National Basketball Association players with 40 or more rebounds in a game
NBA Record - Career Total Rebounds (23,924)
NBA Record - Career Rebounds Per Game (22.9)
NBA Record - Most seasons leading the league in rebounds (11)
NBA Record - Most seasons with 1,000 or more rebounds (13)
NBA Record - Rebounds Per Game in a season (27.2)
Chamberlain also holds the next two highest averages with 27.0 in 1959-60 and 25.7 in 1961-62)
NBA Record - Total Rebounds in a season (2,149 in 1960-1961)
Chamberlain also holds the next six highest totals.
NBA Record - Rebounds in a game (55, Philadelphia Warriors vs. Boston Celtics, November 24, 1960)
NBA Record - Most rebounds per game by a rookie in a season (27.0)
NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a season (1941)
NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a game (45 on February 6, 1960)
Chamberlain, as a rookie, also grabbed 43 rebounds in one game, 42 in two others, and 40 in another.
NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a playoff game (41 against the Boston Celtics, on April 5, 1967).
Game 3 victory in the Eastern Division finals.
NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a half (26 against the San Francisco Warriors on April 16, 1967)
Also an NBA Finals record.
NBA Playoff Record - Highest rebounding average in a playoff series (32.0 in a five game series against the Boston Celtics in 1967).
NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 5-game playoff series (160 against the Boston Celtics in 1967).
NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 6-game playoff series (171 against the San Francisco Warriors in 1967).
Also an NBA Finals record for a 6-game series.
NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 7-game playoff series (220 against the Boston Celtics in 1965).
NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a game (35 against the Boston Celtics on March 22, 1960)
Scored a then-playoff record 53 points (still a rookie record) in the same game (a game 5 victory).
NBA All-Star Game Record - Most career rebounds in the NBA All-Star game (197).
NBA All-Star Game Record - Most rebounds in a half (16 in 1960).
Record shared with Bob Pettit
[edit] Other selected rebound facts
2nd most consecutive seasons with 1,000+ rebounds (10)

[QUOTE=zizozain]yes one reason :
[B][SIZE="4"][SIZE="3"]ESPN[/SIZE][/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]

this




but for real though MJ is the greatest

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]They went 13-4 when MJ came back on top of a 11-6 post-ASG record prior to MJ's return. All in all, a 24-10 close to the season. Jordan averaged 31 ppg on something like 48% in the playoffs.



Do you think the Knicks had "no chance"? Do you know how the Knicks "won" against the Bulls? Do you know how close the Knicks-Rockets series was? The Bulls were considered legit title contenders that year by everyone, although MJ fans like to revise history today.

MJ had plenty of chances to win all by himself and had another chance in 99' but quit. So what? He is a legend. Why insist, though, that he did what he never came close to doing in reality?[/QUOTE]
So i should listen to you instead of Phil jackson and Pippen about Mj in 98. This is a hard choice. I tell you that.:wtf:

Last time i checked the Knicks were in the finals.. They had no chance in hell of winning.