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Let's compare Kobe's help with Pau with the the help Shaq had with Kobe
Shaq had a
29/7/6 all nba defensive shooting guard
9/8 PF no all defensive comming off the bench
10/5/4 SF starter
Kobe had a
18/10 no all defensive team PF
11/8 no all defensive PF comming off the bench
11/4/2 no all defensive SF starter
[QUOTE=Prime_Shaq]
Already posted his 1995 Finals stats earlier, that lost was not on him. The rest is debatable but at the end of the day he did win a ring. You didn't destroy anything, all you stated was your opinion.[/QUOTE]
Dwight, Dirk, Duncan, KG >> Pau
Dwight 09>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pau
Dirk 10 >>>>>>>> Pau
KG 08>>>>>>> Pau
2009 Jazz: Memhet Okur: 17/8 Carlos Boozer: 16/10 Paul Milspap: 14/9
That's not even bringing up all NBA Center Yao who was paired with Scola, Artest and Landry
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Dwight, Dirk, Duncan, KG >> Pau
Dwight 09>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pau
Dirk 10 >>>>>>>> Pau
KG 08>>>>>>> Pau
2009 Jazz: Memhet Okur: 17/8 Carlos Boozer: 16/10 Paul Milspap: 14/9
That's not even bringing up all NBA Center Yao who was paired with Scola, Artest and Landry[/QUOTE]
What about the best Center in the league Andrew Bynum and a top 5 SF in Lamar Odom? And what about the best coach in the league in Phil Jackson?
Those teams win with or without Kobe as well.
[QUOTE=dubeta][B]What about the best Center in the league Andrew Bynum [/B]and a top 5 SF in Lamar Odom? And what about the best coach in the league in Phil Jackson?
Those teams win with or without Kobe as well.[/QUOTE]
Andrew Bynum during Lakers 3 finals runs
08: DNP
09: 6/4
10: 9/7
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Let's compare Kobe's help with Pau with the the help Shaq had with Kobe
Shaq had a
29/7/6 all nba defensive shooting guard
9/8 PF no all defensive comming off the bench
10/5/4 SF starter
Kobe had a
18/10 no all defensive team PF
11/8 no all defensive PF comming off the bench
11/4/2 no all defensive SF starter[/QUOTE]
What's the point of this? So you're telling me the 00-02 teams were more top heavy? Of course they were, they had the best 1-2 punch in NBA history. The 08-10 teams were more complete overall. Are you trying to discount the defensive impact of the Bynum + Gasol frontline? Or the defensive versatility of Odom/Ariza/Artest?
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Dwight, Dirk, Duncan, KG >> Pau
Dwight 09>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pau
Dirk 10 >>>>>>>> Pau
KG 08>>>>>>> Pau
2009 Jazz: Memhet Okur: 17/8 Carlos Boozer: 16/10 Paul Milspap: 14/9
That's not even bringing up all NBA Center Yao who was paired with Scola, Artest and Landry[/QUOTE]
Dwight > Pau
Dirk > Pau
KG > Pau
Bynum + Pau + Odom > Dwight + Rashard
Bynum + Pau + Odom > Dirk + ???
Bynum + Pau + Odom > Okur(Jump shooter) + Boozer (No D) + Millsap (Serviceable, but not like current Millsap)
[QUOTE=dubeta]What about the best Center in the league Andrew Bynum and a top 5 SF in Lamar Odom? And what about the best coach in the league in Phil Jackson?
[B]Those teams win with or without Kobe as well.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well this is just not true.
[QUOTE=Prime_Shaq]What's the point of this? So you're telling me the 00-02 teams were more top heavy? Of course they were, they had the best 1-2 punch in NBA history. The 08-10 teams were more complete overall. Are you trying to discount the defensive impact of the Bynum + Gasol frontline? [B]Or the defensive versatility of Odom/Ariza/Artest?[/B][/QUOTE]
yeah man remember when they were all on the same team?
why am i even bothering..
Kobe did more with less than Shaq did..
Kobe's only all NBA first team teammate was Shaq.. they won 3 straight finals..
Shaq had Penny and Wade as first team all nba players.. never got close to 3 straight finals and FMVP's..
Kobe had 3rd team all NBA Pau.. they made 3 straight finals and won 2 b2b finals..
you tell me what's more difficult to find?
a 28/6/6 SG with and NBA defense
or an 18/10 PF who never makes an all defensive team
Kobe and Shaq were the best duo in NBA history IMO
but lets be real
Kobe got way closer to duplicating the success he had with Shaq than Shaq ever got to duplicating the success he had with Kobe
and you know if this was the other way around... nobody would be arguing otherwise
if Shaq went on to win 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with a 20/5/5 guard Kobe would never live that down
but..
Kobe wins 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with an 18/8 PF and still gets no respect
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]yeah man remember when they were all on the same team?
why am i even bothering..
Kobe did more with less than Shaq did..
Kobe's only all NBA first team teammate was Shaq.. they won 3 straight finals..
Shaq had Penny and Wade as first team all nba players.. never got close to 3 straight finals and FMVP's..
Kobe had 3rd team all NBA Pau.. they made 3 straight finals and won 2 b2b finals..
you tell me what's more difficult to find?
a 28/6/6 SG with and NBA defense
or an 18/10 PF who never makes an all defensive team[/QUOTE]
You keep emphasizing on only the 2nd option on each team, why not try to look at the entire team?
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Kobe and Shaq were the best duo in NBA history IMO
but lets be real
Kobe got way closer to duplicating the success he had with Shaq than Shaq ever got to duplicating the success he had with Kobe
and you know if this was the other way around... nobody would be arguing otherwise
if Shaq went on to win 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with a 20/5/5 guard Kobe would never live that down
but..
Kobe wins 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with an 18/8 PF and still gets no respect[/QUOTE]
Agreed with the first point. However I think you misunderstand me, I do respect Kobe. Shaq needed Kobe and Kobe needed Shaq but Kobe was not better than Prime Shaq.
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Kobe and Shaq were the best duo in NBA history IMO
but lets be real
Kobe got way closer to duplicating the success he had with Shaq than Shaq ever got to duplicating the success he had with Kobe
and you know if this was the other way around... nobody would be arguing otherwise
if Shaq went on to win 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with a 20/5/5 guard Kobe would never live that down
but..
Kobe wins 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with an 18/8 PF and [B]still gets no respect[/B][/QUOTE]
Considering Gasol was the better overall player (Higher Player Efficiency Rating and Win Shares, while being more efficient, getting more rebounds and blocks) it should be that way.
Yes
[QUOTE=Prime_Shaq]already destroyed this
Utah, Boston, Houston and Orlando all better[/QUOTE]
Already posted his 1995 Finals stats earlier, that lost was not on him. The rest is debatable but at the end of the day he did win a ring. You didn't destroy anything, all you stated was your opinion.[/QUOTE]
The point is that he produced the same way from 95-99, but his teams never came close to the amount of success they did with Kobe in a superstar role from 00-02 :confusedshrug:, how did Lakers all of a sudden go from not having HCA to dominating the WC Playoffs 11-0 the same damn year? Shaq's numbers did not go up, matter fact I'm sure 2000 was his best year, and even then they needed Kobe to have a game-saving block and put up 25/12/7/4 in Game 7 against Portland to even make the Finals and it goes 7 games at least if Kobe misses Game 4 of the Finals as well.
****** still acting like Shaq just ran through every opponent on his own and that any guard could have won rings with him in Kobe's place when two of the 3 runs came down to clutch plays by Kobe, Shaw and Horry...and you know damn well the 01 Lakers ain't going through the West like that with no HCA with someone like AI in Kobe's place, who could never average 30 ppg as efficiently as Kobe did through the first 3 rounds + the elite defense, rebounding and playmaking.
Hell no