Question for non-religious types...(most of us I think)

I am going to try and answer you both with one short post. First off I am not against meds or "bandaids" aas long as patients and doctors are not abusing them.

"IF" God is a "baidaid" (I don't think it is at all since it has cured many for good) then I don't see the problem with using a "god band-aid" either...it certainly isn't hurting anyone like pills would...what's the issue???...they believe in something that YOU think is flase???...WHO CARES!!!

and yes, "thiests" have an much lower suicide rate than "athiests"...so it is healthy in that realm of "mood/depression/ect"...

[QUOTE]ABSTRACT:

OBJECTIVE: Few studies have investigated the association between religion and suicide either in terms of Durkheim's social integration hypothesis or the hypothesis of the regulative benefits of religion. The relationship between religion and suicide attempts has received even less attention.
METHOD: Depressed inpatients (N=371) who reported belonging to one specific religion or described themselves as having no religious affiliation were compared in terms of their demographic and clinical characteristics.

RESULTS: [COLOR="Red"]Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide. In terms of clinical characteristics, religiously unaffiliated subjects had more lifetime impulsivity, aggression, and past substance use disorder.[/COLOR] No differences in the level of subjective and objective depression, hopelessness, or stressful life events were found. [/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html[/url]

^^^ READ UP

[QUOTE]its not fixing the problem, it is providing a false reality that the individual can escape into. [/QUOTE]

^^^ that IS fixing the problem...:hammerhead:

wether or not it is false [B]DOES NOT MATTER[/B]...(also can not be proven)

[B]"DEPRESSION" in general is a false sense of reality[/B]...as most people who are depressed really don't have a decent reason to be and are 100x better off than the common "happy" person living in Africa...or Mexico...ect...

if it can be cured with spirituality, that is NOT A BANDAID...

go ask a damn pyschiatrist...spirituality DOES HEAL MENTAL ILLNESS...(not all of them, but the ones that can be beaten such as clinical depression)


[QUOTE]Abstract
While mental health professionals frequently express concerns about the function of spirituality and religion in the lives of people diagnosed with severe mental disorders, [COLOR="Red"]there are both clinical and research bases for the increased acceptance of spirituality's potentially positive role in psychiatric rehabilitation and recovery. [/COLOR]This paper first addresses issues of religious experience in diagnosis, including the importance of religiocultural context and overall functioning in diagnostic assessments. It then examines the roles of spirituality in recovery, exploring both positive and negative relationships between religion and consumers' well-being. Finally, it describes several specific ways in which spiritual and religious concerns may be integrated into psychosocial rehabilitation services: conducting spiritual assessments; offering spiritually-informed discussion groups; incorporating spiritual dimensions of psychotherapy; and facilitating linkages to faith communities and spiritual resources. [/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a713673802[/url]


^^^ check that out...a guide for DOCTORS TO USE SPIRTUALITY RATHER THAN PILLS!!!!



ehh...not such a short post

[QUOTE=Blackisbig]You are kidding with this shit right? Pills are only a bandaid for depression and mental issues whereas "God" can heal them? [COLOR="Red"]Where was "God" healing these issues a hundred years ago before the medical profession started to come to grips with the realities of mental health? Where was he when people with mental disorders were ostracized, beat up, and thrown out of their communities?[/COLOR] Those medications in many situations have given people the means to live productive and healthy lives, and in many of those same cases, they grew up in a church setting where the "Christian Psychologist" painted the child's behavior as something that could be fixed by a mere change in the disciplinary structure of the household.

In many ways churches have been a hindrance in people finding ways to seek help with their mental problems.[/QUOTE]
he was there for many of them...real or not

instead of slitting there wrists or downing jars of asprin they were scared of going to hell, or asking for God's help...and then they grew up!!!

"GOD" has helped many people get through "SHIT"...for centuries...

and it isn't a bandaid either...it is perfectly healthy way for humans to overcome things...

[QUOTE]lots of pills means nothing, it depends what type of depression you have. feeling depressed is not the same as having depression. there are many different types of the disorder and obviously introducing people to god is not going to be effective for all of them. [COLOR="Red"]most people with (unipolar) depression are treated with cognitive behavioural therapy before they are introduced to drug treatments. [/COLOR][COLOR="Red"]In any mental health case drug treatment is usually the last resort[/COLOR] (except for ECT and surgury obviously).[/QUOTE]

that isn't true where I live...and I doubt it is true in the rest of the US also...

doctors throw out pills right away...they don't give a shit...

pills FIRST...then group theorpy and all that shit that actualy requires effort...cause people are lazy and want the "quick fix" and doctors and others just want money...

I know countless people I grew up with that are on some kind of med and never bothered to seek therapy...

hell, the whole damn country is on meds...

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]pills FIRST...then group theorpy and all that shit that actualy requires effort...cause people are lazy and want the "quick fix" and doctors and others just want money...[/QUOTE]

well i'm studying to become a psychologist and we can't prescribe meds, patients that suffer from psychosis or severe depression (where they need to be monitored) are defered to psychiatrists and in those cases they absolutely NEED meds, but our patients won't recieve meds of any sort (from us).

the medical model is f[COLOR="Black"]u[/COLOR]cked i agree, treat the symptoms and not the problem. but you've got to stop generalizing everything. not every psychiatrist is out for a cheap buck. alot of them do care, and alot of them do help.

[quote]it certainly isn't hurting anyone like pills would...what's the issue???...they believe in something that YOU think is flase???...WHO CARES!!! [/quote]
because like i said it is not fixing the problem, in the exact same way you dislike meds i dislike using god as a treatment for mental health problems. it is a distraction, you aren't getting the person to understand or manage the underlying root causes for their problems . CBT and other psychological treatments like interpersonal therapy and even psychoanalysis are statistically proven treatments for known disorders. i'm not pushing drugs unless the person is at risk of harming themselves or others.
[quote]and yes, "thiests" have an much lower suicide rate than "athiests"...so it is healthy in that realm of "mood/depression/ect"...[/quote]
yes and some theists have much lower suicide rates than other theists, is the best theistic treatment the church with the lowest suicide rate?
[quote][B]"DEPRESSION" in general is a false sense of reality[/B]...as most people who are depressed really don't have a decent reason to be and are 100x better off than the common "happy" person living in Africa...or Mexico...ect...

if it can be cured with spirituality, that is NOT A BANDAID...[/quote]
...and they probably have to continue persisting in their new found faith. what happens if they suddenly lose their spiritual beliefs and they fall back into the disorder they came from? the very definition of bandaid. if they manage to move through life after dropping their spiritual ideas and not fall back then i will concede that point. it seems fairly difficult to test that hypothesis though.
[quote]go ask a damn pyschiatrist...spirituality DOES HEAL MENTAL ILLNESS...(not all of them, but the ones that can be beaten such as clinical depression)[/quote]
why would you offer them that if spirituality is quite possibly false to begin when we already have tried and tested methods to heal them? your position is if it heals them then who cares if it is real, mine is if you can use a neutral method to heal someone wouldn't that be the ultimate goal?
[quote]^^^ check that out...a guide for DOCTORS TO USE SPIRTUALITY RATHER THAN PILLS!!!![/quote]
what that abstract for a journal article i have to pay 69 euros to read?

[QUOTE=ShannonElements]I don't fear God(assuming there is a God). Does this make me unhealthy?[/QUOTE]

Assuming there is a God, not fearing God is unhealthy for your soul.

[QUOTE=Legend of Josh]Assuming there is a God, not fearing God is unhealthy for your soul.[/QUOTE]


yeh especially considering how bad they make hell out to be...

but i'm willing to take my chances instead of believing in one fable out of so many out there. plus its difficult for some people to really believe in this type of stuff way more than others it seems, even if we really tried hard to believe.

[QUOTE=ShannonElements]Why?[/QUOTE]

God finds favor in those who seek to understand, value and appreciate his greatness. If we truly understand and appreciate God's greatness (speaking in terms of [I]the[/I] omnipotent, more specific Christian God), then naturally, there should be a healthy dose of fear associated as well.

Fearing God does not automatically assume we think his intentions are evil or unjust (hell for example, which opens up a whole new can of worms bc of the common misconception that God's will for us who do not follow or obey is 'evil' - different topic!); fearing God because of his power and unparalleled magnitude can also be bucketed into fear.

This type of 'God fearing' is healthy for one's spirituality. I know for me personally, it took a lot of ego-bending to break the barriers that separated me from God. It's a huge turn-off for most people, but in order to get close to God, you must first humble yourself and acknowledge God > you. A healthy fear of God can help you get from point A to B.

Pslam 111:10 - [I]The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.[/I]

[QUOTE=Poodle]i'm willing to take my chances instead of believing...[/QUOTE]

In today's world, we idolize (practially worship) worldly things; with each passing day this becomes more and more evident. It's everywhere. It's instilled within us. It's becoming us. It is us.

Romans 1:25 - [I]They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator...[/I]

Remember [I]who's[/I] world you're living in:

2 Corinthians 4:4 - [I]The god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[/I]

wait. I thought prime claimed to not be religious, but now hes talking about god healing depression? WTF, you that almost all religious moments (catharsis, etc) can be explained through brain chemistry? Its the same as a placebo effect.



also, josh, what if shannon believes in gods (which he doesnt fear) that arent your typical judeo-Xtian fearmongering bullshit god? Can you tell him why not fearing a god he believes in is unhealthy without resorting to the bible?

[QUOTE=Legend of Josh]In today's world, we idolize (practially worship) worldly things; with each passing day this becomes more and more evident. It's everywhere. It's instilled within us. It's becoming us. It is us.

Romans 1:25 - [I]They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator...[/I]

Remember [I]who's[/I] world you're living in:

2 Corinthians 4:4 - [I]The god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[/I][/QUOTE]


you're going to have to bring a LOT more than that to convert me. i don't even get how any of that works on anybody tbh :confusedshrug:

it'd probably take me seeing God/Jesus physically, or seeing some miracle firsthand, to truly believe. bible verses/quotes are :blah :blah :blah to me. i don't get why you guys use that. does it ever work?

[QUOTE=miller-time][COLOR="Red"]well i'm studying to become a psychologist [/COLOR]and we can't prescribe meds, patients that suffer from psychosis or severe depression (where they need to be monitored) are defered to psychiatrists and in those cases they absolutely NEED meds, but our patients won't recieve meds of any sort (from us).

the medical model is f[COLOR="Black"]u[/COLOR]cked i agree, treat the symptoms and not the problem. but you've got to stop generalizing everything. not every psychiatrist is out for a cheap buck. alot of them do care, and alot of them do help.[/QUOTE]
how in the f*ck can you NOT know what I am saying to be true then?

:wtf:

to "CURE" (as in gone for good) mental depression without meds...

1. Exercise
2. Healthy Diet
3. HAVE A HEALTHY SPIRITUAL WELL-BEING (religious or not)


that shit should be common knowledge for you...what are you learning about instead?...prozac and shit?...:facepalm

dude, go to any rehab clinic (for depression or drugs) and look at what the doctors (psychologist) are teaching them...they are teaching them that exercise and diet is the #1 thing but after that you have to "FIND GOD"....and that could be anything...

I am talking about the basic fundamentals of curing depression...

you would be SHOCKED at what exercise/diet/spirtuality can heal...it can heal shit considered uncureable like schizophrenia, and bipolar disorder...that shit goes a very long way in terms of Mental Health


I am actually pissed off right now that I am talking to someone that is studying to become a psychologist and has f*cking rejected a healthy spirtual well being as a form of treatment...

not only have you rejected it...but somehow you have found a way to say it is unhealthy...:banghead:

f*ck our schools...seriously

[QUOTE=miller-time]because like i said it is not fixing the problem, in the exact same way you dislike meds i dislike using god as a treatment for mental health problems. it is a distraction, you aren't getting the person to understand or manage the underlying root causes for their problems . CBT and other psychological treatments like interpersonal therapy and even psychoanalysis are statistically proven treatments for known disorders. i'm not pushing drugs unless the person is at risk of harming themselves or others.

yes and some theists have much lower suicide rates than other theists, is the best theistic treatment the church with the lowest suicide rate?

...and they probably have to continue persisting in their new found faith. what happens if they suddenly lose their spiritual beliefs and they fall back into the disorder they came from? the very definition of bandaid. if they manage to move through life after dropping their spiritual ideas and not fall back then i will concede that point. it seems fairly difficult to test that hypothesis though.

[COLOR="Red"]why would you offer them that if spirituality is quite possibly false to begin when we already have tried and tested methods to heal them? your position is if it heals them then who cares if it is real, mine is if you can use a neutral method to heal someone wouldn't that be the ultimate goal?[/COLOR]

what that abstract for a journal article i have to pay 69 euros to read?[/QUOTE]
the ultimate goal is making them happy...

I mean, what are YOU as a doctor going to tell the Christian man who is seeking Christ for help and finding happiness...becoming less depressed without meds?

[I]"oh don't bother with the Bible, it is all BS, it won't help you at all...you are just tricking yourself into being happy and not really fixing anything because Jesus never really existed...let's talk about your mother now"[/I]

would that be your advice?

it should be...[I]"KEEP GOING TO CHURCH, APPARENTLY IT IS WORKING FOR YOU!!!...IF THAT IS WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY THEN MORE POWER TO YOU!!!"[/I]

[QUOTE=boozehound]also, josh, what if shannon believes in gods (which he doesnt fear) that arent your typical judeo-Xtian fearmongering bullshit god? Can you tell him why not fearing a god he believes in is unhealthy without resorting to the bible?[/QUOTE]

If ShannonElements believes in gods that are not the Christian God, then my opinion would be moot b/c I'm referring to fearing [I]that[/I] God as being healthy for the soul. If you fear 'other' gods and it humbles you into being a better less selfish person, great - that's healthy in a sense! ... but it's ultimately moot as well b/c you're following the wrong God(s).

Having said that, let's not go off make this into a 'fact VS opinion' discussion (in regards to my statement of 'following the wrong god). I was just giving you a response.

[QUOTE=Legend of Josh]If ShannonElements believes in gods that are not the Christian God, then my opinion would be moot b/c I'm referring to fearing [I]that[/I] God as being healthy for the soul. If you fear 'other' gods and it humbles you into being a better less selfish person, great - that's healthy in a sense! ...[B] but it's ultimately moot as well b/c you're following the wrong God(s).

Having said that, let's not go off make this into a 'fact VS opinion' discussion (in regards to my statement of 'following the wrong god).[/B] I was just giving you a response.[/QUOTE]

You just opened a can of worms :oldlol:

And really now, who are you to say your imaginary friend is the 'right one' and another is 'wrong'?

Doesn't have to be based on fact (because clearly, it's not), but your opinion would suffice.