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what is the problem of people making this all-time lists? what is the point of these made up rankings? what is the criteria behind them?
seriously, stop it. 'kobe is not top5' 'lebron is top23'5' 'marc gasol is not top4 center in the nba'
its hillarious
[QUOTE=Pointguard]:lol seriously. Look up the word scorer. It will say something about total points scored or one who scores. Not one thing will appear about how or the level of accuracy. I never said anything about offensive impact. Your little thesis below isn't applicable. A scorer scores. Now if you say complete scorer or efficient scorer then your little irrelevant thesis below could mean something. But it isn't like we are asking for a lot of understanding from you to understand this.
At the end of the day Iverson was asked for an uncommon scoring burden. He could win while taking on that scoring burden. I don't fault him in loosing to a prime Shaq and a good Kobe that year and sorry, if Shaq does a Lebron Philly wins that year. The difference between AI and most scorers is that he can consistently take on the burden and even get to the finals with it. You know like I know that Iverson wasn't getting calls - Shaq even commented on this. Not even Jordan consistently went at the basket like Iverson.
Iverson attacked like few other players. You can't measure his impact against a guy that had the convenience of rarely stepping out of his comfort zone. Read the Art of War. A guy that disorients the defense and causes confusion isn't operating at the same level of a jump shooter. And AI was further into enemy territory than Dirk. AI made himself taller by getting deep into the defense and was flat out more prolific.[/QUOTE]
It's clear as day your definition of scoring = ppg scored.
You would've been better off saying that instead of writing all that garbage.
And back to Kobe vs Dirk on ppg and efficiency.
In Kobe's 10 best playoff seasons. He averaged something around 28 ppg on something around 56% TS. I'm just doing it in my head so its no exact, but something around that.
In Dirk's 10 best playoff seasons. He averaged something around 26 ppg on just under 59% TS. Again, its not exact, but close enough.
So you people really think that a 2 point per game differential on worse overall efficiency is enough for somebody to be out of Dirk's league. LOL...and again, that is throwing out Kobe's 4 worst years...and only throwing out 1 year for Dirk.
Kobe certainly is more explosive, but that comes with his lower efficiency and selfishness as well.
To put it simply, Kobe has taken 4198 shots in 208 games. That is just over 20 shots a game. Dirk has taken 2272 shots in 124 games. That is 18 shots per game. And if we are using only Kobe's 10 best playoffs, he's actually averaged closer to 21 shots a game. Dirk remains at around 18 for his 10 seasons. So I'd take the guy scoring 26 a game on better efficiency in every category that takes anywhere from 2 to 3 less shots per game than a guy scoring 2 more points per game on worse efficiency and needs more shots/possessions to score.
Just me though.
[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]It's clear as day your definition of scoring = ppg scored.
You would've been better off saying that instead of writing all that garbage.[/QUOTE]
Yep, didn't you know ppg is everything.
Clearly Iverson's 29.7 ppg on 40/33/76 49% TS makes him a better scorer than Dirk's 26 ppg on 46/38/89 58% TS. Forget that Iverson needs 4 or 5 more shots/possessions a game to get those 3.7 points.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Yep, didn't you know ppg is everything.
Clearly Iverson's 29.7 ppg on 40/33/76 49% TS makes him a better scorer than Dirk's 26 ppg on 46/38/89 58% TS. Forget that Iverson needs 4 or 5 more shots/possessions a game to get those 3.7 points.[/QUOTE]
Wait till he tells you Jerry Stackhouse was better than Dirk too because of the scoring burden.
Iverson put more pressure on the defense than Dirk. That much is true. I admitted that earlier. But Dirk's shooting ability creates just as much for his team. And he was reading double teams, keeping defenses occupied last year just as well as he's ever done.
Efficiency obviously doesn't matter to some people here and I'm one of the guys who doesn't hold it in much regard as others.
There is no way one prefers Iverson to Dirk in the playoffs. Look at the % you posted. Iverson is more explosive but he can shoot you out of games just as easily despite the pressure he put on the defense.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]It depends on your definition. In the regular season? No, I don't think Dirk belongs in that company. Mainly because he doesn't force up as many shots and plays far more team oriented ball than a lot of those guys on that list.
In the playoffs? Absolutely. He's 8th all time in playoff ppg. He's the most efficient high volume scorer (over 25 ppg) in playoff history.
Dirk has had 7 seasons in the playoffs over 26.5 ppg. And he does that about as efficiently as anyone ever. Efficiency absolutely matters...its not just ppg. And even if it was....he's 8th all time in playoff ppg. You may value the regular season more. I don't. I care far more about the playoffs.
And if the 8th best ppg scorer in playoff history with best efficiency in playoff history over 25 ppg isn't elite, then only a couple guys in history are elite. Just depends on your definition. Its just semantics. He's absolutely without a doubt one of the 10 best playoff scorers of all time. That is elite to me.
Here are the guys that average more ppg than Dirk:
1. jordan
2. iverson
3. west
4. tmac
5. lebron
6. baylor
7. gervin
thats it. in the history of the nba....thats it.[/QUOTE]
Durant is at a dead tie with Dirk and he's 4 years before his prime.
As for scoring elite its scoring overall just like it is in every other sport on the planet. Another thing is that Dirk always scored well in the playoffs, his strong point was that he just didn't have a bad scoring post season. That doesn't automatically make him elite. It makes him a steady high scorer. Elite scorers do something other players can't or don't do. Dirk has never averaged 29ppg in the regular season or in a post season run. Dirk never got separation in some scoring capacity. The Elite surpasses what the great do.
Elite scorers have records. Elite scorers score 80 points in a game. Elite scorers can average 40 points over 5 games or 10 games. Elite scorers are right at the top in multiple years. Elite scorers don't have three or four contemporaries scoring more points than them year in and year out. Every year Dirk played, somebody was scoring more and shooting better than him over the course of the year. Elite means you are the best. Dirk doesn't have multiple elite scoring playoff runs or games or year that these other guys have had.
I never heard of a non elite anything that wasn't among the top.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Yep, didn't you know ppg is everything.
Clearly Iverson's 29.7 ppg on 40/33/76 49% TS makes him a better scorer than Dirk's 26 ppg on 46/38/89 58% TS. Forget that Iverson needs 4 or 5 more shots/possessions a game to get those 3.7 points.[/QUOTE]
Dirk shot 37.5% in the last three games of the finals. Jason Terry shot 58% or 21 percentage points higher over that period 24ppg and 22ppg respectively. Was Terry the better scorer when the series was decided?
[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]Wait till he tells you Jerry Stackhouse was better than Dirk too because of the scoring burden.
Iverson put more pressure on the defense than Dirk. That much is true. I admitted that earlier. But Dirk's shooting ability creates just as much for his team. And he was reading double teams, keeping defenses occupied last year just as well as he's ever done.
Efficiency obviously doesn't matter to some people here and I'm one of the guys who doesn't hold it in much regard as others.
There is no way one prefers Iverson to Dirk in the playoffs. Look at the % you posted. Iverson is more explosive but he can shoot you out of games just as easily despite the pressure he put on the defense.[/QUOTE]
Iverson's team won by the chaos Iverson created. Function and role at times can mean more than efficiency. On one hand your boy Dmavs qualifies Dirk on his playoff scoring and then on the next downs it: AI eight year playoff average is higher than Dirk's highest scoring playoff run. You have to be elite to do something like that. And you are trying to tell me that AI isn't elite? So tell me? And Dirk's high scoring playoff average is his only qualifier for being elite. So we have to find another qualifier. But if we do that it creates other problems... like the Jason Terry one above. So now Dirk has the shooting percentage of Lebron, Wade, Jordan, Kareem, Durant, Wilt, Gervin, Shaq, Akeem and Barkley? Dirk isn't the volume scorer or the percentage scorer those guys were. He's not on their level in a game by game basis, a week by week basis, a month by month basis, a season by season basis or playoff by playoff basis.
[QUOTE=RRR3]LOL @ people acting Like KG was some offensive liability to prop Dirk up. :facepalm
KG's PPG from 1999-2000 to 2006-07
22.9 (playoffs 18.8)
22.0 (playoffs 21.0)
21.2 (playoffs 24.0)
23.0 (playoffs 27.0)
24.2 (playoffs 24.3)
22.2
21.8
22.4
Dirk PPG during the same period
17.5 (it was his 2nd year, I admit)
21.8 (playoffs 23.4)
23.4 (playoffs 28.4)
25.1 (playoffs 25.3)
21.8 (playoffs 26.6)
26.1 (playoffs 23.7)
26.6 (playoffs 27.0)
24.6 (playoffs 19.7)
Yeah, Dirk is a better scorer and always has been but stop acting like KG was ****ing Ben Wallace out there.[/QUOTE]
People need to stop ignoring this post.
[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]It's clear as day your definition of scoring = ppg scored.
You would've been better off saying that instead of writing all that garbage.[/QUOTE]
Haaa, mad cause you don't understand the words elite scorer? Think of the punishment I went thru cause you speaking loud in a vacuum.
Well then you call it. Year by year - he isn't in their league. Month by month -- he's no where near them. Scoring during a series - they all have him beat. Scoring during a playoff run - nah not so good for him. Individual games - speak up. What is your standard. Percentage and scoring? Curious, I mean you jumped at me.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]Dirk shot 37.5% in the last three games of the finals. Jason Terry shot 58% or 21 percentage points higher over that period 24ppg and 22ppg respectively. Was Terry the better scorer when the series was decided?[/QUOTE]
my god...stop comparing 3 games to entire careers. dirk has 11 years of playoff games. more than enough to make conclusions about what he is.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]Durant is at a dead tie with Dirk and he's 4 years before his prime.
As for scoring elite its scoring overall just like it is in every other sport on the planet. Another thing is that Dirk always scored well in the playoffs, his strong point was that he just didn't have a bad scoring post season. That doesn't automatically make him elite. It makes him a steady high scorer. Elite scorers do something other players can't or don't do. Dirk has never averaged 29ppg in the regular season or in a post season run. Dirk never got separation in some scoring capacity. The Elite surpasses what the great do.
Elite scorers have records. Elite scorers score 80 points in a game. Elite scorers can average 40 points over 5 games or 10 games. Elite scorers are right at the top in multiple years. Elite scorers don't have three or four contemporaries scoring more points than them year in and year out. Every year Dirk played, somebody was scoring more and shooting better than him over the course of the year. Elite means you are the best. Dirk doesn't have multiple elite scoring playoff runs or games or year that these other guys have had.
I never heard of a non elite anything that wasn't among the top.[/QUOTE]
What makes him elite is everything he does. You can't just ignore a huge aspect of scoring...which is efficiency. You can't also ignore consistency...another huge aspect of scoring.
I'll say again. Of the top 8 playoff scorers ever (and dirk is one of them by the way)....Dirk's overall efficiency is as good or better than everybody. A sound argument can be made that Dirk is the most efficient playoff scorer ever when you combine ppg with overall efficiency.
Sorry, we can't just ignore that because you think its all about ppg. You seem to ignore that Dirk does have records as well. He just turned in the most efficient scoring game in the history of the NBA in the playoffs. Since 1986, Dirk has two of the 16 best individual scoring games in the playoffs. The 50 against the Suns and 48 this year. And he's got another one at 46...which is top 24.
So you can't just ignore the aspects of scoring that don't fit your agenda...can't just ignore dirk's records..etc. sorry.
[QUOTE=RRR3]People need to stop ignoring this post.[/QUOTE]
Its all good. People aren't comfortable with looking at KG as a scorer here. And in his playoff mix is an assortment of superb clutch play, him playing the point, elite level defense, elite level rebounding, elite level passing for a PF and great intensity. Good post Tripple R.
[QUOTE=RRR3]People need to stop ignoring this post.[/QUOTE]
I don't think anyone is ignoring it or acting like he's ben wallace. we just all know what kg is offensively. very good. very unselfish. just not a guy even close to dirk when you need to manufacture a bucket late in a tight game or run an offense through a player for a game or series in the playoffs.
nobody is saying KG is garbage offensively. that is just silly. but what i hate is when people try to break players down with that offense vs offense and defense vs defense approach. it leads to poor conclusions. i have KG over dirk all time still, but if you break it down the way most do, it wouldn't be close and would favor KG.
And anyone that just watched the last 11 years with any bit of objectivity knows that is a legit comparison.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What makes him elite is everything he does. You can't just ignore a huge aspect of scoring...which is efficiency. You can't also ignore consistency...another huge aspect of scoring.
I'll say again. Of the top 8 playoff scorers ever (and dirk is one of them by the way)....Dirk's overall efficiency is as good or better than everybody. A sound argument can be made that Dirk is the most efficient playoff scorer ever when you combine ppg with overall efficiency.
Sorry, we can't just ignore that because you think its all about ppg. You seem to ignore that Dirk does have records as well. He just turned in the most efficient scoring game in the history of the NBA in the playoffs. Since 1986, Dirk has two of the 16 best individual scoring games in the playoffs. The 50 against the Suns and 48 this year. And he's got another one at 46...which is top 24.
So you can't just ignore the aspects of scoring that don't fit your agenda...can't just ignore dirk's records..etc. sorry.[/QUOTE]
Dirk has a record now??? Please share?
Scoring. Plain and simple. What player during Dirk's tenure was the most dominant post season scorer?
What player during Dirk's tenure scored the most points in a game in 50 years? Scored over 2400 points three times with two scoring titles? Three times he scored the most points in the post season. Four post seasons with 30+ppg.
What player during Dirk's tenure had four scoring titles and two post seasons as the highest scorer? 8 year playoff career right at 30ppg only behind the great MJ.
What player during Dirk's tenure, after his rookie campaign outscored Dirk, as Dirk hit his prime, every year in the regular season and every year in the playoffs (one exception). Scored over 2300 points twice with one scoring title. One playoff scoring lead with a whopping 35 ppg while being the games best well rounded player.
What player during Dirk's tenure scored over 2300 points once. Has a scoring title at 30ppg. One postseason scoring title at 33ppg. Outscored Dirk in 5 of his 8 years in the leagu in the regular seasonas well as most of his seven post seasons.
What player during Dirk's tenure has two scoring titles. Scored over 2400 points once. One post season scoring title.
Dirk never got a scoring title. Never scored 2200 points. He does have one post season scoring title (one of the lowest ever). Never scored 29 ppg in the regular season or in one postseason (all of the above have scored 30 in both). We can't say for sure he has the endurance and mental toughness to score 30ppg.
To be elite all time you have to be at least elite with your contemporaries. But I think Dirk is a great player but he's been getting accolades for things he isn't. And so what if he isn't an elite scorer. He's still great. A stellar playoff performer.