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Magic Johnson was a better:
Ballhandler
Passer
Larry Bird was a better:
Defender (He was a 3 time all-defensive team defender)
Scorer & Scoring Arsenal
Shooter
Rebounder
and when talking about passing skills themselves, Larry was actually not so bad at it himself....
Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).
[QUOTE=MiamiThrice]How does this disprove that his efficiency was worse at the end of his career when he took on a bigger load? That was my claim. Compare them for yourself if you don't believe me.[/quote]
'80-'86 - 17.8 ppg with 54.2% FG, 60.8% TS, 54.6% eFG
'87-'90 - 22.1 ppg with 50.2% FG, 60.8% TS, and 52.2% eFG
Lower FG% but same TS% despite much more points in '87-'90
This is just regular season stats as well.
Before you discredit TS%, it just goes to show you that Magic was more aggressive at scoring and taking it to the hoop in '87-'90 and that is why his TS% remained the same despite a lower FG%. He was also an improved FT shooter from '87-'90.
[QUOTE]Playoff numbers
Bird: 24 PPG 10 RPG 7 APG 47% shooting 89% FT shooting
Magic: 19 PPG 7 RPG 12 APG 50% shooting 83% FT shooting[/QUOTE]
Career it looks like the same, maybe an edge to Bird but if you point out specific and important series like Finals, Conference Finals, etc. you would see that Bird had far more poor playoff series than Magic did.
Bird was up and down in the playoffs which is why his averages are like that. Magic was consistently great in the playoffs.
I can only think of like 1-2 poor playoff series by Magic, I can think of a decent amount for Bird.
[quote]Funny since Magic Johnson had to retire from basketball prematurely for contracting the HIV virus via a homosexual affair he had in the later part of his career. At least Birds premature retirement was because he gave it his all on the court and his body paid for it.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: It doesn't matter, Magic was still going strong and dominant from '87-'90 whereas Bird wasn't anymore. Bird was actually arguably the MVP in '88 and some argue that he should have been the MVP over Jordan but Bird played pretty poor in that post-season specifically the ECF against the Pistons.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Magic was just good a rebounder. He was getting 8-10 boards [B]from the PG [/B]spot, and shooting ability doesnt affect positional versatility as much as ballhandling does. Magic could play 1-5. Bird couldnt play PG or SG due to his lack of comparable ballhandling ability.[/QUOTE]
Magic was not just as good a rebounder. You're grasping at straws with this one.
Please explain how shooting ability doesn't affect "positional versatility" as much as ball handling. Give me a shooter that can hit from all areas of the court, inside and out, with or without his back to the basket, and if necessary, with both hands and you can have your ball handler.
Lastly, you underrate Bird's handles. He practically created the point forward position, had perhaps the greatest off-hand in NBA history, and was a very secure dribbler who didn't need flash to be effective.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender.[/QUOTE]
How come? Both were 6'9".... and both attacked the boards... You should really see some of the footage of Magic and focus on how he attacks the boards, he would run in on the defensive rebounds as fast as possible (allowed him to start the offensive break even faster and he is supposed to have the ball anyways) and on offense he would especially those first 3-4 years in the NBA attack the offensive boards all the time instead of running back to play defense.. both attacked the boards, position is no excuse here...
Also, Magic didnt even touch the PG position until around 1983, during 1980-83 Norm Nixon was the starting PG, Magic started Forward (played a la point-forward)... his season rebound average career high came during that time actually at 9.6 RPG... During those years of not starting PG he averaged between 7.7 - 9.6 rpg...
Larry Bird averaged 10-11 rpg from the get go... his career average is 10.0 rpg...
A more productive rebounder is a more productive rebounder....
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).[/QUOTE]
Bird was indeed a better rebounder. You can't use Magic playing PG and Bird SF as an excuse to why Bird's rebounding numbers are better. Like I said in the other thread, Bird played with rebounders like Parish, McHale, & Walton, Magic didn't play with any very good rebounders (Kareem, Rambis, Worthy was the frontcourt). You always saw Bird inside the post fighting players to death for rebounds, Magic wasn't as willing to battle others inside for rebounds.
Bird nearly out-rebounded Moses Malone (greatest rebounding center ever arguably) in the '81 Finals, you think Magic would ever come close to out rebounding a peak Moses Malone? In the 1984 NBA Finals, Larry Bird nearly out-rebounded Magic & Kareem by himself. Bird was just a more physical player who would sacrifice his body for a rebound.
I don't know where you are getting that Magic was a better one on one defender than Bird, both were below average in that department, I would call individual defense a wash, both were very good help/team defenders, but I might give Bird a slight edge in that department and Bird was clearly a better low post defender than Magic.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).[/QUOTE]
Leading the league in steals doesn't make someone a good defender. AI used to be among the league leaders in steals and was never a good defender. More to the point Bird made multiple All NBA defense teams and Magic never made none. Magic couldn't stay in front of many point guards such as KJ and Isiah and often never guarded points. Magic was an average defender at best and sometimes quite poor.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).[/QUOTE]
Magic was not a better passer. Bird getting 7 assists a game from the forward position was more impressive than Magic getting 11 from the point guard position.
I can play that game, too.
I always found Magic's '84 Finals fascinating. He was labeled "Tragic" in that series (yes, he missed a couple of FTs that would have ultimately won the series), but all he could do in that series was average 18.1 ppg, LEAD the Lakers in rebounding, at 7.7 rpg, was miles ahead of everyone in assists at 13.6 apg, and shot, get this... .560 from the field (Bird shot .488 and Kareem shot .481.)
In any case, since no one else has mentioned it, here was another view of Bird's post-season career...
[QUOTE]How about this from Colts18:
Quote:
Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:
1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason
1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.
1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.
1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.
1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.
1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.
1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.
1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.
1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.
1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.
1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.
1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.
1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.
So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.
With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.
Bird played in an NBA that shot about .485 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .472. Which is bad enough, BUT, wait...it gets worse. He shot a CAREER .455 in his five FINALS. In fact, he shot UNDER .399 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .499...ELEVEN times (including TWO games of under .299!) His HIGH Finals series was only .488, and his LOW was .419.
And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.
Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in TWO of them, and in fact, lost out to a TEAMMATE in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the SECOND best player on the floor in TWO more ('85 and '87 Finals.)
[/QUOTE]
Nope. Bird didnt double Magic in boards.
Magic DID practically double Bird in assists, and you can get assists from ANYWHERE on the court so saying position matters as much is FOLLY considering how much Bird had the ball in his hands..
...and being a PG directing the offense being far from the basket makes it WAY harder to accumulate rebounds
Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed Bird in the Finals. You have NO counter for that.
[QUOTE]'80-'86 - 17.8 ppg with 54.2% FG, 60.8% TS, 54.6% eFG
'87-'90 - 22.1 ppg with 50.2% FG, 60.8% TS, and 52.2% eFG
Lower FG% but same TS% despite much more points in '87-'90
This is just regular season stats as well.
Before you discredit TS%, it just goes to show you that Magic was more aggressive at scoring and taking it to the hoop in '87-'90 and that is why his TS% remained the same despite a lower FG%. He was also an improved FT shooter from '87-'90.
[/QUOTE]
TS? Huh? How about we use Actual statistics recorded by the NBA, not some shit you and your friends use in your fantasy league.
[QUOTE]
Career it looks like the same, maybe an edge to Bird but if you point out specific and important series like Finals, Conference Finals, etc. you would see that Bird had far more poor playoff series than Magic did.
Bird was up and down in the playoffs which is why his averages are like that. Magic was consistently great in the playoffs.
I can only think of like 1-2 poor playoff series by Magic, I can think of a decent amount for Bird. [/QUOTE]
In the playoffs everything is just as important. You think these guys wouldn't be embarassed as **** losing in the first round? Every game matters. You are just being selective and picking whichever benefits your argument. Nice try.
[QUOTE]
:oldlol: It doesn't matter, Magic was still going strong and dominant from '87-'90 whereas Bird wasn't anymore. Bird was actually arguably the MVP in '88 and some argue that he should have been the MVP over Jordan but Bird played pretty poor in that post-season specifically the ECF against the Pistons.[/QUOTE]
So first you say Bird wasn't dominant anymore, and then you go on to say that he was the MVP? Interesting. Strong contradicting paragraph. Anyone can pick out one series and blame them for the loss. Here I'll play that game. LOL nice 43% shooting by Magic against the Bulls in the 91 finals!!! Choker!!!!! Also I'm not sure if you realize just how bad of a defender Magic was in those later years. You can jerk off to those offensive statistics all you want, but LA had to hide him on defense. I don't think there was one point guard he could actually guard.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Nope. Bird didnt double Magic in boards.
Magic DID practically double Bird in assists, and you can get assists from ANYWHERE on the court so saying position matters as much is FOLLY considering how much Bird had the ball in his hands..
...and being a PG directing the offense being far from the basket makes it WAY harder to accumulate rebounds
Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed Bird in the Finals. You have NO counter for that.[/QUOTE]
Your elementary arguments are no match:pimp:
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).[/QUOTE]
Cool so I guess Jason Kidd is a better rebounder than Pau Gasol since he gets more rebounds relative to his position.
[IMG]http://darkjournal.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/borat-not-jb.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=jlauber]...[/QUOTE]
Chamberlain
Regular Season - 30 PPG
Postseason - 22.5 PPG
His PPG dropped EVERY YEAR in the postseason.
[QUOTE=MiamiThrice]TS? Huh? How about we use Actual statistics recorded by the NBA, not some shit you and your friends use in your fantasy league.[/quote]
It is used on basketball reference and ESPN which is very credible. It is just an advanced stat because it is hard to do the calculation off of the top of your head.
[QUOTE]
So first you say Bird wasn't dominant anymore, and then you go on to say that he was the MVP? Interesting. Strong contradicting paragraph. [/QUOTE]
He was dominant in the regular season in '88 but he wasn't great in the post-season. He was easily less dominant than what he was from '84-'86 though.
Magic is ahead of Bird because Magic and Bird were close each season when Bird was better from their rookie season to '86 whereas Magic was clearly better and better than Bird by a lot from '87 to '91.
[quote]Also I'm not sure if you realize just how bad of a defender Magic was in those later years. You can jerk off to those offensive statistics all you want, but LA had to hide him on defense. I don't think there was one point guard he could actually guard.[/QUOTE]
Magic and Bird were like the same defensively. Both of them were below average man defenders but good help defenders. Bird was probably a little better but nothing significant.