[QUOTE=NumberSix]Derrick rose is a glorified role player.
[COLOR="White"]Lol. Ok, now I'm trolling. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Hate much?
Ha, you got me:cheers:
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[QUOTE=NumberSix]Derrick rose is a glorified role player.
[COLOR="White"]Lol. Ok, now I'm trolling. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Hate much?
Ha, you got me:cheers:
[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]
2010-2011 RAPM
1) Howard - 9.7
2) LeBron - 8.1
3) CP3 - 7.5
4) Dirk - 6.9
.
.
.
32) DRose - 3.2
.[/QUOTE]
This is all people need to know. RAPM isn't the be all and end all but that's pretty clear cut.
What the hell is RAPM?
And if its all people need to know how was greatness determined in the 60 years of NBA basketball before it existed?
Nobody needs any of these random numbers pulled out of the ass of someone not even involved in basketball.
Rose clearly deserved MVP based on the historical standard...
Rose was clearly not the best player in the league in 11...
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]What the hell is RAPM?
And if its all people need to know how was greatness determined in the 60 years of NBA basketball before it existed?
Nobody needs any of these random numbers pulled out of the ass of someone not even involved in basketball.[/QUOTE]
The stat's not clear cut. But rose is so far down that he's way outside the confidence intervals associated with it.
I don't have that big a problem with claiming rose deserved mvp (although I disagree with it)...but the claim that he was (or is) the best player in the NBA is seriously farfetched and has little going for it.
[quote=Unbiased_one]The stat's not clear cut. But rose is so far down that he's way outside the confidence intervals associated with it.
I don't have that big a problem with claiming rose deserved mvp (although I disagree with it)...but the claim that he was (or is) the best player in the NBA is seriously farfetched and has little going for it.[/quote]
For real...I dont even know what that is.
Is that the new per/winshares/whatever?
[QUOTE=TonyMontana]Ask Rose if he felt like he was the MVP after LeBron ended his career in the ECF.
If it's not LeBron Dirk would have been a good pick as well. To knowledgeable basketball fans Dirks playoff run wasn't that big of a surprise. He was great all year and EXTREMELY valuable to his team.
Dallas's Record with Dirk: 55-18([B].753[/B])
Dallas Record w/o Dirk: 2-7([B].222)[/B]
With Dirk in the lineup, Dallas would have been on pace for the 1st seed in the West. It's obvious being a 3rd seed hurt him. San Antonio was the 1st seed with a 61-21([B].744[/B]) record.
Dirk just wasn't a sexy pick. In 2011 all anyone cared about was the Heat, and the Bulls having a better record/beating them in meaningless regular season game was enough to fuel the media hype machine.
[b]Theres a reason people routinely call Rose one of if not the worst winner of the MVP award in the history of the league.[/b][/QUOTE]
Honestly, only you and a few of the known LeBron dickriders/Rose haters are the only ones spewing that garbage.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
The Bulls minus rose fell off by more than most teams would minus the MVP. The Heat sure as hell arent a 45 win team without Lebron.
Doesnt seem anyone cares.[/QUOTE]
Your cherrypicking and twisting of every stat available is hilarious. You multiply bad figures to get worse ones. You pretend that there has been a huge dropoff when there really hasn't been. They got backdoor swept in 10-11 in the ECF. Last year, without the NBA's leading rebounder, arguably the NBA's best shooter PLUS DRose they lost one round earlier. Cleveland went from the #1 seed two years in a row to the worst losing streak in the history of professional sports when LeBron left.
Losing some games from your bigs is borderline irrelevant when you bring a guy off the bench like Asik. And leaving those personnel losses outside of your calculations is hilarious and belies your clear agenda.
With LeBron off the floor Miami was ~-1.8pts/48 last year. That puts them at worse than Milwaukee but slightly better than Toronto.
[quote=HurricaneKid]Your cherrypicking and twisting of every stat available is hilarious. You multiply bad figures to get worse ones. You pretend that there has been a huge dropoff when there really hasn't been. They got backdoor swept in 10-11 in the ECF. Last year, without the NBA's leading rebounder, arguably the NBA's best shooter PLUS DRose they lost one round earlier. Cleveland went from the #1 seed two years in a row to the worst losing streak in the history of professional sports when LeBron left.
Losing some games from your bigs is borderline irrelevant when you bring a guy off the bench like Asik. And leaving those personnel losses outside of your calculations is hilarious and belies your clear agenda.
With LeBron off the floor Miami was ~-1.8pts/48 last year. That puts them at worse than Milwaukee but slightly better than Toronto.[/quote]
So...im supposed to add up what? How much effort do you think im putting in? Instead of saying what they won and lost im supposed to....what exactly?
When people say they did fine without Rose I notice they dont mention Nate robinson stepping in. As if he was there all along. And Kirk returning as well.
Why is that?
Perhaps because....we are speaking generally and not acting like a team is ever the exact same year to year?
The Bulls win at a 64 win pace with Rose.
45 or so without.
Just how it is. Take from it what you will.
And....you are saying the Heat minus Lebron are slightly better than the raptors or what?
What do those numbers mean exactly?
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]No. Thats every single game with and without rose since game one of 10/11. The games he missed that year...the games he missed in 2012...and all last season. Simple with and without since the time in question.
Not like its hard to look into. Do the numbers yourself. They were on a 67 and change win pace with Rose playing in 2012. 33 wins and 7 losses.
Just the facts.[/QUOTE]
The facts say that Bulls lost a lot of depth on both sides of the ball with the departures of Asik, Korver, Watson, Brewer. With the same 2011 team minus Rose, they were still a 53-54 plus win team.
Bottom line is that Rose owes his MVP to Thibs and his superior team defense and rebounding and the Spurs finishing their season 4-8.
Kblaze...
Are you arguing that Rose deserved MVP...or that he was the best player? Or both?
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]For real...I dont even know what that is.
Is that the new per/winshares/whatever?[/QUOTE]
PER is a crap stat because people use it as an efficiency stat (when it isn't), and parts of its construction make no sense.
OWS is actually a reasonably logical box-score generated measure of total offensive contribution (the negative being that it's from a box-score), but DWS is BS as far as I'm concerned.
RAPM is an adjusted plus minus stat which is for me the best single measure of a player's contribution to his team (there is also something called XRAPM which also factors in box-score contributions but I don't think it's as good for that precise reason).
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Kblaze...
Are you arguing that Rose deserved MVP...or that he was the best player? Or both?[/QUOTE]
Hes saying Miami would win more than 45 games with Wade/Bosh/Allen/etc. and they would since they were healthy in the regular season and playing great.
Thats why Lebron didnt deserve MVP.. he didnt elevate his team to more wins than Rose did in the regular season.
Take them both off, Lebrons team wins more.. but in 2011, Rose's team won more. Meaning he did more with less.
[quote=greymatter]The facts say that Bulls lost a lot of depth on both sides of the ball with the departures of Asik, Korver, Watson, Brewer. With the same 2011 team minus Rose, they were still a 53-54 plus win team.
Bottom line is that Rose owes his MVP to Thibs and his superior team defense and rebounding and the Spurs finishing their season 4-8.[/quote]
53-54 wins? Ah...a theory. We have a theory. Im gonna go ahead and leave that in the world you found it. And deal in the one we have.
Rose owes his MVP to his team like every MVP ever did. Just to different degrees. Hes hardly the only MVP on a team that won with defense while not being a key defender.
[QUOTE=tpols]Hes saying Miami would win more than 45 games with Wade/Bosh/Allen/etc. and they would since they were healthy in the regular season and playing great.
Thats why Lebron didnt deserve MVP.. he didnt elevate his team to more wins than Rose did in the regular season.
Take them both off, Lebrons team wins more.. but in 2011, Rose's team won more. Meaning he did more with less.[/QUOTE]
Added wins like that makes a great case for MVP...a case that I have always agreed with.
However, that doesn't make a good case for best player.
I'm trying to find out if he thought Rose was the best player in 11...that is why I asked it.