prime dirk vs current durant?

[QUOTE=Micku]I have to disagree with you there man. Once upon a time Dirk had Michael Finley, Steve Nash, a young Juwan Howard, and Shawn Bradley. OKC would love Shawn Bradley over Perkins anyday of the week. His defense and rebounding is just much better. His offense is too, though he is inconsistent, but it's better than nonexistent. They would also love a prime Michael Finley as a third option. The Mavs problem, imo, was that they didn't figure out how to make it all worked with their talent. And their bench sucked. While Don Nelson is a very good coach, they needed a different coaching staff to make all fit. They definitively had the pieces.

Regardless, I always found Dirk had more talent in his earlier Mavs team than the 2011 and onwards OKC team.[/QUOTE]

The only year that would be true was in 03...and even then it was a somewhat poorly constructed team for winning in the playoffs with solely run and gun...etc.

And did you just list Bradley and Juwan Howard as positives? ROFL...Howard put up 13/8/1 on 36% shooting in the 01 playoffs...and was beyond bad against the Spurs. Just horrendous.

The 12 Thunder were better than any team Dirk has ever had...by a clear margin as well.

But I don't care to really debate that...my point in bringing that up was to show that at the very least Durant is getting Dirk level help or better...so if he wants to be on the Dirk level all time...he needs to win a title.

But let me put it this way for you. Give prime Dirk...Westbrook and the center equivalent of Ibaka (not sure who that is...maybe a healthy Tyson Chandler or Marc Gasol)...in the league today...and I'd bet a ton of money the Mavs win multiple titles from 11 through 15.

Yeah, Malone had some #1 ranked defenses at the time, DPOY player in Mark Eaton, best pure PG in John Stockton from 18 years (16 as a starter), former all-star wings like Jeff Malone and Jeff Hornacek, and Jerry Sloan as his coach for just as long too. His late-80's-90's Jazz, especially the ones from 96-99 (some could even say the late 80's too) were definitely deep teams.

Don't know how Malone didn't have the convenience Dirk did.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]The only year that would be true was in 03...and even then it was a somewhat poorly constructed team for winning in the playoffs with solely run and gun...etc.

And did you just list Bradley and Juwan Howard as positives? ROFL...

The 12 Thunder were better than any team Dirk has ever had...by a clear margin as well.

But I don't care to really debate that...my point in bringing that up was to show that at the very least Durant is getting Dirk level help or better...so if he wants to be on the Dirk level all time...he needs to win a title.

But let me put it this way for you. [B]Give prime Dirk...Westbrook and the center equivalent of Ibaka (not sure who that is...maybe a healthy Tyson Chandler or Marc Gasol[/B])...in the league today...and I'd bet a ton of money the Mavs win multiple titles from 11 through 15.[/QUOTE]

Prime Dirk + Westbrook + A defensive stopper like Chandler??? Game over :bowdown:

That floor spacing would be insane. I would predict about 2 titles in 4 years

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Yeah, Malone had some #1 ranked defenses at the time, DPOY player in Mark Easton, best pure PG in John Stockton from 18 years (16 as a starter), former all-star wings like Jeff Malone and Jeff Hornacek, and Jerry Sloan as his coach for just as long too. His late-80's-90's Jazz, especially the ones from 96-99 (some could even say the late 80's too) were definitely deep teams.

Don't know how Malone didn't have the convenience Dirk did.[/QUOTE]

Don't you get it...Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Devin Harris, Avery Johnson...LOL

Shit...I just heard that about how great Shawn Bradley and Juwan Howard were...

The arguments about how much each has won are kind of irrelevant because the leagues they played in were much different. The West now provides a much better opportunity for KD to win a ring than Dirk from 2002-2006 (and the Mavs were robbed in 06).

Dirk had the 3-peat Lakers with an uberdominant Shaq, Prime C-Webb Kings, Prime Duncan Spurs, & Prime Sheed Jailblazers to battle. The West is still really competitive but it is nowhere near as top heavy as it was from like 2000-2005. The competition got a little more reasonable as Dirk reached the end of his prime and he made it to 2 finals and won 1.

[QUOTE=Jailblazers7]The arguments about how much each has won are kind of irrelevant because the leagues they played in were much different. The West now provides a much better opportunity for KD to win a ring than Dirk from 2002-2006 (and the Mavs were robbed in 06).

Dirk had the 3-peat Lakers with an uberdominant Shaq, Prime C-Webb Kings, Prime Duncan Spurs, & Prime Sheed Jailblazers to battle. The West is still really competitive but it is nowhere near as top heavy as it was from like 2000-2005. The competition got a little more reasonable as Dirk reached the end of his prime and he made it to 2 finals and won 1.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, Dirk never had to face the Lakers in the playoffs until 11. Now, it impacted seedings and all that stuff and definitely made it tougher, but luckily we never faced the Shaq/Kobe Lakers.

But yea...there are no 02 Kings and dominant Spurs teams running around the West right now. The competition is definitely worse right now than it was from like 00 through 11.

[QUOTE=Black and White]That still doesn't make Durant better than Prime Dirk tho[/QUOTE]

It doesn't. But it also doesn't make Dirk better either.

[quote=DMAVS41]
The only year that would be true was in 03...and even then it was a somewhat poorly constructed team for winning in the playoffs with solely run and gun...etc.

And did you just list Bradley and Juwan Howard as positives? ROFL...[/quote]

Hey now, come on. Bradley was a much better player than Perkins and I'm sure OKC would love to have him. His defense and rebounding was better. His offense is meh, but do you not agree he was better than Perkins? And Juwan Howard was solid scoring piece. He wasn't a scrub. A bad fit? Sure, you can argue that.

And it goes back to what you say about a constructed team, but it was mainly coaching than it was the players. Dirk had a talented team around him in his early Mavs years.

[quote=DMAVS41]
The 12 Thunder were better than any team Dirk has ever had...by a clear margin as well.

But let me put it this way for you. Give prime Dirk...Westbrook and the center equivalent of Ibaka (not sure who that is...maybe a healthy Tyson Chandler or Marc Gasol)...in the league today...and I'd bet a ton of money the Mavs win multiple titles from 11 through 15.
[/quote]

The Thunder 12 was a better team than most that Dirk had. But I think the early Mavs team could compare with Nash, Finley and Dirk at the core. Finley could give you 20, 5, 5.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Don't you get it...Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Devin Harris, Avery Johnson...LOL

[B]Shit...I just heard that about how great Shawn Bradley and Juwan Howard were...[/B][/QUOTE]

Haha! Wow. You're acting like Juwan Howard was a scrub. He did give the team 18/7 and 15/8. He once had 22 and 8 before the Mavs. And they brought in Shawn Bradley to improve the defense and rebounding of the Mavs. And Shawn Bradley was supposed to provided defense, good rebounding and he was a solid rim protector. Much better than Perkins.

You can say that they didn't fit well or whatever. But you are just disregarding their play completely. Dirk did have talent. They weren't the best in the league obviously, but lets not act OKC would trade over Perkins to Shawn Bradley or have Michael Finley as their third option currently.

[QUOTE=Micku]Haha! Wow. You're acting like [B]Juwan Howard was a scrub[/B]. He did give the team 18/7 and 15/8. He once had 22 and 8 before the Mavs. And they brought in Shawn Bradley to improve the defense and rebounding of the Mavs. And Shawn Bradley was supposed to provided defense, good rebounding and he was a solid rim protector. Much better than Perkins.

You can say that they didn't fit well or whatever. But you are just disregarding their play completely. Dirk did have talent. They weren't the best in the league obviously, but lets not act OKC would trade over Perkins to Shawn Bradley or have Michael Finley as their third option currently.[/QUOTE]

Who would you rather have tho, Juwan Howard or Serge Ibaka?

[QUOTE=Micku]It doesn't. But it also doesn't make Dirk better either.



Hey now, come on. Bradley was a much better player than Perkins and I'm sure OKC would love to have him. His defense and rebounding was better. His offense is meh, but do you not agree he was better than Perkins? And Juwan Howard was solid scoring piece. He wasn't a scrub. A bad fit? Sure, you can argue that.

And it goes back to what you say about a constructed team, but it was mainly coaching than it was the players. Dirk had a talented team around him in his early Mavs years.



The Thunder 12 was a better team than most that Dirk had. But I think the early Mavs team could compare with Nash, Finley and Dirk at the core. Finley could give you 20, 5, 5.[/QUOTE]

I really don't think Bradley is better than Perkins, but it doesn't matter considering Bradley made no impact on the team in the playoffs any year in question. Well, he was awful in 03 when he put up a solid 3/4/0 on 44% TS in the playoffs for us in 14.5 mpg.

Howard only played on the 01 Mavs...and that 01 team was nowhere near as good as the 12 Thunder.

See, this is my problem. I totally agree Dirk has had some very good teams around him. Nobody is saying otherwise...

I said 03 would be your best bet...and it's tough for some reasons. 1 being that Dirk got hurt in the WCF in game 3. Another being that is was a run and run team with no center that played no defense...and another being that we didn't have a player as good as Westbrook outside of Dirk.

The Thunder, on the other hand, had a much better built roster for the playoffs in my opinion.

[QUOTE=Micku]Haha! Wow. You're acting like Juwan Howard was a scrub. He did give the team 18/7 and 15/8. He once had 22 and 8 before the Mavs. And they brought in Shawn Bradley to improve the defense and rebounding of the Mavs. And Shawn Bradley was supposed to provided defense, good rebounding and he was a solid rim protector. Much better than Perkins.

You can say that they didn't fit well or whatever. But you are just disregarding their play completely. Dirk did have talent. They weren't the best in the league obviously, but lets not act OKC would trade over Perkins to Shawn Bradley or have Michael Finley as their third option currently.[/QUOTE]

Nobody is saying Dirk didn't have talent, but you are propping up a guy that did this in the playoffs the year in question

13/8/1 36% fg 43% TS...and played shit defense.

And we were talking about the 12 team...but if you go down that road. Trust me...I'd much rather have a defensive big than Finley on either of those teams. Please give me the center equivalent of Ibaka in 03 over Finley. Please...we would have been so much better.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I really don't think Bradley is better than Perkins, but it doesn't matter considering Bradley made no impact on the team in the playoffs any year in question. [B] Well, he was awful in 03 when he put up a solid 3/4/0 on 44% TS in the playoffs for us in 14.5 mpg.[/B][/QUOTE]

If I can recall (correct me if I'm wrong), he was injured throughout the playoffs that year. He was always injury prone tho.

And he did made an impact on the team though. His rebounding and rim protection was worth it whenever he was healthy, and he was the center that the Mavs really needed because they were lacking in the middle. The dude was a big time shot blocker despite playing little minutes and he was pretty good rim protector and defender. But he was injury prone, inconsistent on offense (but much better than Perkins) and constant rotation by the coaching staff just ruin that. As I said before, you can blame the coach.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Howard only played on the 01 Mavs...and that 01 team was nowhere near as good as the 12 Thunder.

See, this is my problem. I totally agree Dirk has had some very good teams around him. Nobody is saying otherwise...

I said 03 would be your best bet...and it's tough for some reasons. 1 being that Dirk got hurt in the WCF in game 3. Another being that is was a run and run team with no center that played no defense...and another being that we didn't have a player as good as Westbrook outside of Dirk.

The Thunder, on the other hand, had a much better built roster for the playoffs in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

I agree that the Thunder was better. But not based upon talent or help that Durant had. Dirk did have help. More help than he did in the 06 team and the 11 team. Imo, it was more the coaching and the ability to make the talent work.

The early Mavs team reminds me of the late 90s Lakers team. Full of talent with no direction. They got Phil Jackson and Tex Winter and lead a less talented team to championships. While Don Nelson was a good coach, but give them Rick Carlisle from the beginning and they'll probably do better.

I don't even like Durant's free throw centric, padded game. And I think it's kind of obvious he's a superior version of Dirk. A black, better ball handling, more athletic version of Dirk. It's pretty obvious he's better.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Nobody is saying Dirk didn't have talent, but you are propping up a guy that did this in the playoffs the year in question

13/8/1 36% fg 43% TS...and played shit defense.

And we were talking about the 12 team...but if you go down that road. Trust me...I'd much rather have a defensive big than Finley on either of those teams. Please give me the center equivalent of Ibaka in 03 over Finley. Please...we would have been so much better.[/QUOTE]

And he was still better than Perkins. Especially healthy.

And Bradley was supposed to be that defensive presence for the Mavs. It just didn't work out. The Mavs in 03 were dealing with some injury problems (including Bradley I believe) got injured and Dirk as well. So they didn't have any depth. If Dirk didn't get injured, then it may have been a closer series.

People forgetting how good Michael Finley was.