Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson - Complete Career Head-to-Head Stats

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Great stuff, as always.

BTW, I get crushed by the Bird fans here, but in all honesty, could you rank Bird higher (if you had a GOAT list), in terms of carrer success, with solid criteria, over these players?

MJ
Wilt
Russell
Magic
KAJ
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
Kobe[/QUOTE]
I don't rate in terms of career success though, just in terms of ability, impact and who I'd take in what order an all-time draft.

Apologies, legacy/GOAT lists don't interest me TBH.

[QUOTE=fpliii]I don't rate in terms of career success though, just in terms of ability, impact and who I'd take in what order an all-time draft.

Apologies, legacy/GOAT lists don't interest me TBH.[/QUOTE]

At least you are consistent.

As for myself, I try to use a combination of criteria (of which I provided in a post above.) And in terms of overall career resumes, I don't see Bird having a case, (or at best, a flimsy one) over those players I listed.

For example, did he have the IMPACT that Shaq had? Did he perform as brilliantly in the post-season, as Shaq did? How about their Finals? Was he a better scorer (how many scoring titles?) Was he a better rebounder? He did have more MVPs, but in reality, Shaq was the best player in the league in probably five seasons, while Bird could never claim that many. FMVP's? Rings? I mean, if you go right down the list, Shaq had a better overall resume.

Lebron? Scoring? Both in regular season and post-season? FMVP's? MVPs? Rings (yes, Bird is still clinging to an edge here), Finals performances, including game seven's? Team success (Lebron did more with less in Cleveland for sure.) Again, overall, and Lebron has a solid edge...and it will only get bigger.

In any case, I just don't see Bird having a case over any of those guys...

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]At least you are consistent.

As for myself, I try to use a combination of criteria (of which I provided in a post above.) And in terms of overall career resumes, I don't see Bird having a case, (or at best, a flimsy one) over those players I listed.

For example, did he have the IMPACT that Shaq had? Did he perform as brilliantly in the post-season, as Shaq did? How about their Finals? Was he a better scorer (how many scoring titles?) Was he a better rebounder? He did have more MVPs, but in reality, Shaq was the best player in the league in probably five seasons, while Bird could never claim that many. FMVP's? Rings? I mean, if you go right down the list, Shaq had a better overall resume.

Lebron? Scoring? Both in regular season and post-season? FMVP's? MVPs? Rings (yes, Bird is still clinging to an edge here), Finals performances, including game seven's? Team success (Lebron did more with less in Cleveland for sure.) Again, overall, and Lebron has a solid edge...and it will only get bigger.

In any case, I just don't see Bird having a case over any of those guys...[/QUOTE]
Where do Oscar and Dr. J fit into all of this?

[QUOTE=fpliii]Where do Oscar and Dr. J fit into all of this?[/QUOTE]

You tell me.

Using Dr. J's prime seasons in the ABA, and then he has a case over Bird.

Oscar gets slammed for team success, but to be fair, he played in the Russell-Celtic Dynasty years (as well as the Wilt-Philly era). But think about this. He was traded to the Bucks in 70-71, and they went 66-16 and won a dominating world title. In 71-72 they went 63-19. In 72-73 they went 60-22. And in his last season, they went 59-23, and lost a game seven in the Finals. He retired, and they dropped to 38-44, and missed the playoffs. Not all of it was Oscar, but clearly his departure had a major impact.

In terms of statistical success, it is not even close. So, yes, Oscar has a case. And for those that like quotes, I am sure I could find plenty which had Oscar with at least a GOAT argument.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]You tell me.

Using Dr. J's prime seasons in the ABA, and then he has a case over Bird.

Oscar gets slammed for team success, but to be fair, he played in the Russell-Celtic Dynasty years (as well as the Wilt-Philly era). But think about this. He was traded to the Bucks in 70-71, and they went 66-16 and won a dominating world title. In 71-72 they went 63-19. In 72-73 they went 60-22. And in his last season, they went 59-23, and lost a game seven in the Finals. He retired, and they dropped to 38-44, and missed the playoffs. Not all of it was Oscar, but clearly his departure had a major impact.

In terms of statistical success, it is not even close. So, yes, Oscar has a case. And for those that like quotes, I am sure I could find plenty which had Oscar with at least a GOAT argument.[/QUOTE]
I have Oscar in the discussion for GOAT offensive peak.

The thing about Doc is, I actually think he contributed a good deal of his value on the defensive end. Tremendous help defender, one of the best ever perhaps.

His G6 of the 76 Finals (against Bobby Jones) has to be one of the all-time performances on that stage, along with Russ in G7 of 62 and Magic in G6 of 81.

I do think coming into the NBA without a 3pt shot (meaning there were always two bigs in the paint, preventing the drive), and playing with black holes on those Sixers teams made life hell for him in what should've been his peak seasons (though he had that knee brace as well). Regardless, he still showed up in the playoffs, dominating on the big stage.

[QUOTE=fpliii]I have Oscar in the discussion for GOAT offensive peak.

The thing about Doc is, I actually think he contributed a good deal of his value on the defensive end. Tremendous help defender, one of the best ever perhaps.

His G6 of the 76 Finals (against Bobby Jones) has to be one of the all-time performances on that stage, along with Russ in G7 of 62 and Magic in G6 of 81.

I do think coming into the NBA without a 3pt shot (meaning there were always two bigs in the paint, preventing the drive), and playing with black holes on those Sixers teams made life hell for him in what should've been his peak seasons (though he had that knee brace as well). Regardless, he still showed up in the playoffs, dominating on the big stage.[/QUOTE]
Just looked up Doc's 76 finals...

1976 ABA Finals: [b]37.7 ppg, 14.2 rpg, 6.0 apg, 3.0 spg, 2.2 bpg, 59.0% FG, 78.6% FT[/b]

:eek: :bowdown:

And these Lebron kids want to put him over the great Doctor J when Lebron is the worst finals performer of a top 20 player alltime :oldlol:

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Great stuff, as always.

BTW, I get crushed by the Bird fans here, but in all honesty, could you rank Bird higher (if you had a GOAT list), in terms of carrer success, with solid criteria, over these players?

MJ
Wilt
Russell
Magic
KAJ
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
Kobe[/QUOTE]


[B]Here you go:[/B]


[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT]:oldlol: :oldlol:
[B]
Bird's top5 with a top5 peak. All the explanations have been made and you've "ditched them" all the time :facepalm

You know what would be better? If you explain how Wilt is top8 and above

MJ
KAreem
Russell
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Duncan

Should be fun and almost impossible :oldlol: Most people have Bird in their top5 and Wilt out so good luck with that. (and you know it)[/B][/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]How about Bird, in the 1984 playoffs? Leading his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT% (how ****ing crazy is that :eek:), with some epic performances raising his regular-season level - not even "only" maintaining it -, while the majority of his teammates were considerably underperforming, playing clearly below their standards (check the stats, watch the games, read the reports), Larry just willing that team to the title, doing more of the same in the Finals, leading them over a better team (Magic with a clearly better cast, Kareem as 1a too). Would've most likely been the same in 1985 though, had he didn't have an injured hand and elbow (fck those injuries though lmao, Wilt played with a broken fingernail :bowdown:), and again in 1987 if the team was somewhat close - not even that close to the same - to their 1986 level. Crazy that he was even better in 1986 :bowdown:
Shit, 3 titles as #1, 3 MVPS (only once not top3), 8 all-nba, ridiculous stats, ridiculous peak, ridiculous play, in 8 healthy years, actually maintaining or elevating in the playoffs more often than not, all of it in the GOAT most competitive era, turning a franchise completely around.. :bowdown: Wilt can't **** with that.

I guess you don't know nothing about that (or that ignorant dude you so love to quote, wtf lol).. If that was Wilt it would've been the GOAT post-season, with Bird I guess it counts as a choke. Stay mad.

And just one example out of many, all the while, on the other hand, Wilt was choking like a mother****er more often than not, pretty much always dropping below his regular-season standards, in the playoffs :roll: [/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Nearly doesn't count.

Robert Allen Cherry, journalist and author of the biography Wilt: Larger than Life accused Wilt of choking, because if "Chamberlain had come up big and put up a normal 30 point scoring night", L.A. would have probably won its first championship". (in game 6 of the 1969 Finals where Chamberlain only scored 8 points.

I can also quote some random shit.

Wilt's choking resume:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7610721#post7610721[/url]

Now that's something to be proud of :roll: , but let's compare him to LArry Legend, one of the greatest clutch performers and more often than not raised/maintained his level in the post-season.[/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow][B]1973 NBA Finals[/B]
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In the Game 5, Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

[B]1970 NBA Finals[/B]
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7, Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

[B]1969 NBA Finals[/B]
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in game 2. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

[B]1968 Divisional Finals[/B]
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

[B]1966 Divisional Finals[/B]
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-68 (41.2%)

[B]1965 Divisional Finals[/B]
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

[B]1964 NBA Finals[/B]
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

[B]1962 Divisional Finals[/B]
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Just looked up Doc's 76 finals...

1976 ABA Finals: [b]37.7 ppg, 14.2 rpg, 6.0 apg, 3.0 spg, 2.2 bpg, 59.0% FG, 78.6% FT[/b]

:eek: :bowdown:

And these Lebron kids want to put him over the great Doctor J when Lebron is the worst finals performer of a top 20 player alltime :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://noblecountygold.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/9-julius-erving-nba-style-gq1.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=fpliii][IMG]http://noblecountygold.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/9-julius-erving-nba-style-gq1.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Mah niggah

[QUOTE=fpliii]
There's also the story about the World Invitational Tournament, but this video does it better justice:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjYuKvJS55E[/url][/QUOTE]
Bird said what I've been saying the whole post. "Something about Magic made you want to rebound and make the extra pass." He was infectious and could feature players unlike any other player. Stockton and Isiah were great point guard but on those Olympic teams and all star teams you could see a drop off when they played. Magic was one of the few players that could make others around him better. Kareem was talking retirement before Magic joined the team. He stayed beyond his welcome a full 9 years later.

Scott and Worthy barely looked good and looked like they wanted to retire when Magic left. Worthy's shooting percentage immediately went down 50% points and his game totally plummeted within a year. He had a crazy effect on players and they definitely played a more joyous and refined game with Magic. No other player in any other sport rewarded players for good discipline and had his teammates aware, excited and a key part of the team.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Damn, I rate Bird way higher than most. Maybe I need to rewatch some tape.[/QUOTE]

Whenever I rewatch some of Bird tapes, I realize how good he is in terms of off the ball movement and being able to get a shot off a times. I always thought he was a bit overrated as a shooter. Like MJ seemed to be a better mid range shooter than Bird. By the 92 season, all MJ did was shoot jumpers it seems Nobody could stop it because how high he jumped and how quick he was and he constantly shot 50%. I probably need to watch more tapes of Bird tho.

It would interesting somebody would check this, but I swore I saw Magic Johnson in 84 Finals to hit more jumpers than Bird in the entire series. Magic was more open due to the Celtics letting him taking it and the Celts doubling Kareem. Bird seemed to miss the a bunch of midrange shots, but made his points inside the paint from rebounds or post. Bird seemed to fall in love with the jumper when he should've took it inside more, while Magic was more selective at it.

Even in the 87 Finals, Bird was much better at scoring the paint and it seems most of his misses were anything outside the paint. But I have rewatch it again.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Bird said what I've been saying the whole post. "Something about Magic made you want to rebound and make the extra pass." He was infectious and could feature players unlike any other player. Stockton and Isiah were great point guard but on those Olympic teams and all star teams you could see a drop off when they played. Magic was one of the few players that could make others around him better. Kareem was talking retirement before Magic joined the team. He stayed beyond his welcome a full 9 years later.

Scott and Worthy barely looked good and looked like they wanted to retire when Magic left. Worthy's shooting percentage immediately went down 50% points and his game totally plummeted within a year. He had a crazy effect on players and they definitely played a more joyous and refined game with Magic. No other player in any other sport rewarded players for good discipline and had his teammates aware, excited and part of the team.[/QUOTE]

[B]Again, proving you don't know shit.

Scott played just about the same immediately after Magic's retirement and Worthy injured his ankle in the 1991 playoffs then in 1992 he severely injured his knee and needed season-ending surgery, he was never the same after all of that.

Now, am I saying Magic didn't make teammates better? **** no, he was one of the very best at that, but don't take it tooo far, and don't post lies.[/B]

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Here you go:[/B][/QUOTE]

All already handled and clearly debunked. Thanks for trying though.

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=323753&page=4[/url]

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Bird said what I've been saying the whole post. "Something about Magic made you want to rebound and make the extra pass." He was infectious and could feature players unlike any other player. Stockton and Isiah were great point guard but on those Olympic teams and all star teams you could see a drop off when they played. Magic was one of the few players that could make others around him better. Kareem was talking retirement before Magic joined the team. He stayed beyond his welcome a full 9 years later.

Scott and Worthy barely looked good and looked like they wanted to retire when Magic left. Worthy's shooting percentage immediately went down 50% points and his game totally plummeted within a year. He had a crazy effect on players and they definitely played a more joyous and refined game with Magic. No other player in any other sport rewarded players for good discipline and had his teammates aware, excited and a key part of the team.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, didn't Worthy battle a bunch of injuries? He was already injured in 91, and then more injured in the Finals. In 92 he got injured again. He was banged up after that to perform as good. But I think Magic did give him a bunch of easy shots. Especially in the fastbreak.

[QUOTE=Micku]Whenever I rewatch some of Bird tapes, I realize how good he is in terms of off the ball movement and being able to get a shot off a times. I always thought he was a bit overrated as a shooter. Like MJ seemed to be a better mid range shooter than Bird. By the 92 season, all MJ did was shoot jumpers it seems Nobody could stop it because how high he jumped and how quick he was and he constantly shot 50%. I probably need to watch more tapes of Bird tho.

It would interesting somebody would check this, but I swore I saw Magic Johnson in 84 Finals to hit more jumpers than Bird in the entire series. Magic was more open due to the Celtics letting him taking it and the Celts doubling Kareem. Bird seemed to miss the a bunch of midrange shots, but made his points inside the paint from rebounds or post. Bird seemed to fall in love with the jumper when he should've took it inside more, while Magic was more selective at it.

Even in the 87 Finals, Bird was much better at scoring the paint and it seems most of his misses were anything outside the paint. But I have rewatch it again.[/QUOTE]

[B]Phila should do Bird's shotchart, I'm telling you.

If anything, imo, Bird's the GOAT overall shooter, just because he could score and bang inside, also great at post-up, doesn't mean he wasn't also an amazing shooter, that's from everywhere else and in any way (3pters too obviously).
I've watched countless of Bird's games and always seemed "easily" a 50% shooter from mid-range, playing ways and stats suggest the same more than enough.

From watching through the years, what's improved mostly over his career (regarding scoring) was his post-game and shot-selection, in his early years he settled more for long range jumpers and went inside and attacked the rim a bit less than after it, took more ill-advised 3's (of course his shooting improved and still had a pretty good shot-selection before). Always great without the ball but always managed to improve on that, just terrific to see.

What you've said about the 84 Finals is somewhat true though. Magic had and took plenty of mid-range shots, Celtics were giving him the shot since he wasn't an established reliable shooter and they had to double Kareem. And Bird was doing more damage on the inside yea, also because he was smart, that was the thing to do with Cooper on him.[/B]