The Wilt Chamberlain Offensive Scouting Report Project Thread:

[QUOTE=trueDS]That's not answer to my question ;]

Really Wilt's fans, just pick one answer or propose another possible from mathematical point of view.[/QUOTE]
I'm not a Wilt fan, but I'm wondering if you think this is reasonable:
[CODE] %rim FG% %else FG% tot FG% FT%
60-61 0.40 70.0% 0.60 34.3% 48.6% 54.2%
62-63 0.40 70.0% 0.60 39.3% 51.6% 60.4%
64-66 0.40 70.0% 0.60 40.7% 52.4% 50.4%
67-68 0.70 70.0% 0.30 48.3% 63.5% 41.0%
69-73 0.70 70.0% 0.30 38.3% 60.5% 47.5%[/CODE]

[QUOTE=fpliii]I'm not a Wilt fan, but I'm wondering if you think this is reasonable:
[CODE] %rim FG% %else FG% tot FG% FT%
60-61 0.40 70.0% 0.60 34.3% 48.6% 54.2%
62-63 0.40 70.0% 0.60 39.3% 51.6% 60.4%
64-66 0.40 70.0% 0.60 40.7% 52.4% 50.4%
67-68 0.70 70.0% 0.30 48.3% 63.5% 41.0%
69-73 0.70 70.0% 0.30 38.3% 60.5% 47.5%[/CODE][/QUOTE]
What good is playing around with fictitious numbers when the guy who is proposing them doesn't even seem to understand how the game was played back then?

I suggest to DS, to quietly learn more, and project opinions less. Seems like he has opinions that are pre-formed despite a lack of data, if there is a lack of data he seems to make up his own data. Then he proceeds to state revealing Wilt footage is 'not very valuable/important' Kinda silly no?

[QUOTE=fpliii]I'm not a Wilt fan, but I'm wondering if you think this is reasonable:
[CODE] %rim FG% %else FG% tot FG% FT%
60-61 0.40 70.0% 0.60 34.3% 48.6% 54.2%
62-63 0.40 70.0% 0.60 39.3% 51.6% 60.4%
64-66 0.40 70.0% 0.60 40.7% 52.4% 50.4%
67-68 0.70 70.0% 0.30 48.3% 63.5% 41.0%
69-73 0.70 70.0% 0.30 38.3% 60.5% 47.5%[/CODE][/QUOTE]

I will check it later, but it's difficult to believe center shot less than 50% of his shots at rim.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]What good is playing around with fictitious numbers when the guy who is proposing them doesn't even seem to understand how the game was played back then?

I suggest to DS, to quietly learn more, and project opinions less. Seems like he has opinions that are pre-formed despite a lack of data, if there is a lack of data he seems to make up his own data. Then he proceeds to state revealing Wilt footage is 'not very valuable/important' Kinda silly no?[/QUOTE]

Could you answer to question: what in your opinion was Wilt's FG% at rim and what % of his all shots were at rim shots?

[QUOTE=trueDS]Could you answer to question: what in your opinion was Wilt's FG% at rim and what % of his all shots were at rim shots?[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to give you fictitious numbers, what is the point? Phila's shot chart reveals a few fragments of what you seek to know, so long as you understand what games they came from, when those games were played which can effect his role, and just how few there are. My project when finished, will reveal quite a bit more about his scoring habits, so patiently wait for it, trust me it is rather revealing in assessing how he scored the lion share of his points. Also probably most of all ask questions and listen to people like La Fresco who watched Wilt play. You're asking for stuff that isn't possible, you're an advanced stats era-minded fan, but you won't get advanced stats from Wilt, they don't exist.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]I'm not going to give you fictitious numbers, what is the point? [/QUOTE]

The point is to know your opinion, because either you think early Wilt was weak at rim finisher or you are overrating his fadeaway shots. There's no other possibility (and if is, then please show it from mathematical point of view).

[QUOTE=trueDS]The point is to know your opinion, because either you think early Wilt was weak at rim finisher or you overrating his fadeaway shots. [B]There's no other possibility.[/B][/QUOTE]
Incorrect, having no opinion at all on the subject is a possibility.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Incorrect, having no opinion at all on the subject is a possibility.[/QUOTE]

By the way you are talking about Wilt one can say you clearly have opinion on that subject. But it's obvious you are afraid to answer that question, because it might put Wilt in bad light and expose him as "fadeaway shooter". So good luck with preparing highlights with only made shots and acting like it says much about Wilt. I'm done with this forum and no wonder most good posters from here migrated to realGM.

[QUOTE=trueDS]By the way you are talking about Wilt one can say you clearly have opinion on that subject. But it's obvious you are afraid to answer that question, because it might put Wilt in bad light and expose him as "fadeaway shooter". So good luck with preparing highlights with only made shots and acting like it says much about Wilt. I'm done with this forum and no wonder most good posters from here migrated to realGM.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://img.pandawhale.com/post-32449-ace-ventura-eye-roll-gif-Jim-C-FTgU.gif[/IMG]

Not really related, but I'm wondering if you guys have a rough timeline for changes in Wilt's FT form? When did he start shooting from way behind the line, and when did he experiment with shooting underhand?

[QUOTE=fpliii]Not really related, but I'm wondering if you guys have a rough timeline for changes in Wilt's FT form? When did he start shooting from way behind the line, and when did he experiment with shooting underhand?[/QUOTE]
There's clips of him shooting free throws every season I think, and from HS all the way to his final season there isn't much room for speculation it's just a matter of pinpointing, also there's a bit of testimonial out there as to why he switched his forms and when he was switching them. I'm not going to sidetrack myself with that right now, someone else who has payed attention to this can comment on that if they know. All I know offhand is his form changed from HS, to NCAA due to pain in his knees, and from at least his 5th season (maybe sooner though) until 1968 he shot underhand. From 1971-73 I know he was shooting one step back and one step to the left, not giving much of a f*ck at that point looking very defeated just being there in the first place :lol

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]There's clips of him shooting free throws every season I think, and from HS all the way to his final season there isn't much room for speculation it's just a matter of pinpointing, also there's a bit of testimonial out there as to why he switched his forms and when he was switching them. I'm not going to sidetrack myself with that right now, someone else who has payed attention to this can comment on that if they know. All I know offhand is his form changed from HS, to NCAA due to pain in his knees, and from at least his 5th season (maybe sooner though) until 1968 he shot underhand. From 1971-73 I know he was shooting one step back and one step to the left, not giving much of a f*ck at that point looking very defeated just being there in the first place :lol[/QUOTE]
lol thanks, I don't want to distract you. :D

BTW, when you say 1971, you mean 70-71, or 71-72?

[QUOTE=trueDS]By the way you are talking about Wilt one can say you clearly have opinion on that subject. But it's obvious you are afraid to answer that question, because it might put Wilt in bad light and expose him as "fadeaway shooter". So good luck with preparing highlights with only made shots and acting like it says much about Wilt. I'm done with this forum and no wonder most good posters from here migrated to realGM.[/QUOTE]


[img]http://www.clker.com/cliparts/R/3/i/V/Q/c/guy-waving-bye-md.png[/img]

[B][I][SIZE="6"]bye bye!![/SIZE][/I][/B]

[QUOTE=trueDS]I will check it later, but it's difficult to believe center shot less than 50% of his shots at rim.[/QUOTE]

It looks like the NBA started charting these exact shots beginning with the 2000-2001 season.

How about Shaq in that same season (and including the playoffs)?

1776 total FGAs

768 "at the rim", which from what I can gather, is 0-2 ft., or .43.2% of the time.

Now, how about this. Of those 768 shots "at the rim", Shaq made 603 of them, or .785. BUT, included were 300 dunks, of which he made 287 (.957.)

So, from 3 ft on out, Shaq shot a combined 401-1008, or .398.

In his 2001-2002 season, Shaq took a combined 1613 FGAs (regular season and playoffs), and made 915.

He took 783 shots "at the rim", or .485. Of those, (again 0-2 ft), he made a total of 586, or .748. BTW, he made 329 of 344 dunk attempts (.956.)

From 3 ft on, he made 329 of 830 FGAs, or .396. Hell, subtract his point-blank dunk attempts, and he made 586-1269, or .462. Just what in the hell was he doing taking anything but dunks?


Now, how about a typical Tim Duncan season? In his 05-06 season (and one in which he primarily a post-up center), he made a combined 695-1396 FGAs. Of those, he took 461 "at the rim" or .330 of his total shots.

"At the rim" (0-2 ft.) he made 335-461 shots, or a .727 FG%.

From 3 ft on out, he made 360-935 FG/FGA, or a .385 FG%.

Again, ask yourself, why in the hell was Duncan shooting anything but 0-2 ft shots?


And to get back to the Wilt question. Using Duncan as an example, I REALLY believe that a 59-60 to 62-63 Wilt was taking FAR more 3+ foot shots than "at the rim" shots. IMHO, he was probably in the "Duncan" range, which would have meant that he was probably shooting around 40-45% from 3-12 to feet. Which would explain his "inefficient" shooting in those seasons.


BTW, how about a couple of Wilt's "inefficient" seasons, like his 61-62 and 62-63 seasons?

In his 61-62 season, he averaged 50.4 ppg on a .506 eFG%, in an NBA that shot an eFG% of .426. In his 62-63 season, he averaged 44.8 ppg on a .528 eFG%, in an NBA that shot an eFG% of .441.

Now, lets compare that with some other "greats" in their highest scoring seasons, shall we?

How about David Robinson in his highest scoring season? 29.8 ppg on an eFG% of .507, in an NBA that shot an eFG% of .485.

Oh, and how about Hakeem in his highest scoring season? 27.8 ppg on an eFG% of .517, in an NBA that shot an eFG% of...get this... .500!


Of course, we could compare Chamberlain's 65-66 season, in which he led the league in scoring, at 33.5 ppg, and in eFG%, at .540, in an NBA that shot an eFG% of .433.

Or, Chamberlain's unfathomable 66-67 season, when he averaged 24.1 ppg on an eFG% of .683, in an NBA that shot an eFG% of .441. BTW, during the regular season, he averaged 20.8 ppg on a .633 eFG% against Nate Thurmond: against Russell in the regular season, he averaged 20.3 ppg on a .549 eFG% (and then 21.6 ppg on a .556 eFG% in the EDF's against him); and against Bellamy, he averaged 22.7 ppg on a .709 eFG%.


The bottom line...a young Wilt just coming into the NBA was probably taking the vast majority of his shots from 5-12 ft. And that would explain those "inefficient" seasons of .461, .509, .506, and .528.

Oh, and once again...

[url]http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html[/url]

[QUOTE]

Carl Braun said "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
[B]"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league [COLOR="DarkRed"]with a good touch from the outside[/COLOR], which made his early scoring that much more significant[/B]. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70
[/QUOTE]


So, when CavsFan posts the very limited footage of Wilt that is available, I would contend that Wilt hitting 12-15 foot shots was not only common, but in fact, he was probably shooting them (especially his fade-away bank shots which Duncan would later copy) on a decent percentage.

I find these shooting splits fascinating.

The Wilt-bashers come up with blatantly fabricated theories that try to minimize Wilt's shooting, particular his early NBA career shooting, and yet, I see no one has responded to what I posted above.

Shaq, and even Duncan, had entire seasons (both regular season and post-season combined), in which they collectively shot .398, or worse, away "from the rim."

How about Vlade Divac in '03-04? From 3-10 feet... a .306 eFG%.

How about Garnett in his highest scoring season? From 3-10 feet... .414.

Once again, the NBA began tracking these shots from the 2000-2001 season, and Hakeem was nearing the end, but how about him in that season... from 3-10 feet... .363.

And Robinson in that same season? From 3-10 feet... .320.