I never really thought of Peja all that far off from someone like Ray Allen but now that I look at it Peja really only had half as many all star level seasons as Ray.
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I never really thought of Peja all that far off from someone like Ray Allen but now that I look at it Peja really only had half as many all star level seasons as Ray.
[QUOTE=magnax1]I never really thought of Peja all that far off from someone like Ray Allen but now that I look at it Peja really only had half as many all star level seasons as Ray.[/QUOTE]
Maybe even one third as many.
Had Ray's career ended in Seattle in 2007, he was Peja range, a bit higher probably, but top-100 at best.
His late career was Reggie Miller-esque. Raised his ranking a lot I believe.
What do you think?
Any other players who raised themselves late in their careers?
Malone and Stockton stand out...
Also Magnax and anyone else....what do you think of the ranking of the three current players in this recent group...Harden, Noah, Blake?
Robert Parish? Steve Nash? Dirk? KG?
[QUOTE]Maybe even one third as many.
Had Ray's career ended in Seattle in 2007, he was Peja range, a bit higher probably, but top-100 at best.
His late career was Reggie Miller-esque. Raised his ranking a lot I believe.
What do you think?[/QUOTE]
That's probably pretty fair. I don't think it's quite reggie Miller level though. Reggie was a similar caliber of player at 35 as he was at 25, which I wouldn't say of Ray Allen.
[QUOTE]Any other players who raised themselves late in their careers?[/QUOTE]
Kobe has impressed me in terms of longevity. Only really him Malone and Kareem have had 14 or more seasons where they were top 10 in the league. At least that I can think of.
I was fond of the way Kidd reinvented himself, and the Mavs owe their championship to his ability to run that offense effectively in 11 (which is something that never gets mentioned) In fact I was more fond of the way he played at the end of his career.
[QUOTE]Also Magnax and anyone else....what do you think of the ranking of the three current players in this recent group...Harden, Noah, Blake?[/QUOTE]
I've never been fond of Noah. I think he's a glorified hustle guy, and his defense is very over rated to me. Of course compared to other guys who get you 12-10 or whatever he's great, but there are lots and lots of center I'd take over him.
I think Blake deserves a bump. He's not quite that tier with Duncan and Dirk and Barkley and those other guys but he's knocked on the door last season (and Im talking about just that one season). He had a much less disappointing playoffs than usual too.
Harden has put up some very empty stats in my mind. Even if you look past his defense, which is definitely among the worst in the league, he really has fallen short in all of his playoffs. He definitely disappeared last year despite Dwight giving them a real chance to advance, and he was worthless in stretches of that finals run in OKC.
[QUOTE]Robert Parish? Steve Nash? Dirk? KG?[/QUOTE]
Parish is hard to say. Probably top 50. I'd have to think about it, but he was great early in boston, and he lasted forever. Possibly at some point the third best center in the league.
Nash is at least top 35 probably. He's one of the best offensive players ever. I think two of his phoenix teams were statistically top 10 offenses ever when adjusted in a season by season basis. 4 in the top 20. I think the only other guys who have done that are Jordan, Stockton & Malone, and Magic. If he had any sort of impact in terms of rebounding or defense he would've been a top 20 player IMO, and that's really the only reason his teams kept losing. They never kept up in those categories despite being dominant on offense.
Dirk I'd say is similar to Nash. I'm sure people will say his championship separates him, but they really aren't different in impact. I mean, Dirk also never contributed much except his offense, and I don't think he was as good on that side as Nash. He was a good, but not elite rebounder for a few years. He never changed games by getting boards like Shaq or Duncan did in the same era, and by the time he was a champion Dwyane Wade was getting as many rebounds as him in the playoffs. Of course Dirk had his best season since 2011 last year, so I'd say he has plenty of chance for improvement if he puts up a couple more borderline top 10 in the league seasons.
KG is top 20. I think I have him at like 15. He's a top 10 defender ever, head of arguably the best defense ever in 08 Boston, one of the best passers ever at his position, one of the best rebounders ever at his position, gets your 20-25 points, will fit with literally any team you put him on, can play Center to Small forward, can guard 3 positions, and maybe shooting guard too if it's a good matchup. His 04 seasons is probably the best ever by a power forward in my mind. Not a dominant scorer, but dominant in every other way. Kind of similar to Russell in that sense.
[QUOTE=magnax1]That's probably pretty fair. I don't think it's quite reggie Miller level though. Reggie was a similar caliber of player at 35 as he was at 25, which I wouldn't say of Ray Allen.
Kobe has impressed me in terms of longevity. Only really him Malone and Kareem have had 14 or more seasons where they were top 10 in the league. At least that I can think of.
I was fond of the way Kidd reinvented himself, and the Mavs owe their championship to his ability to run that offense effectively in 11 (which is something that never gets mentioned) In fact I was more fond of the way he played at the end of his career.
I've never been fond of Noah. I think he's a glorified hustle guy, and his defense is very over rated to me. Of course compared to other guys who get you 12-10 or whatever he's great, but there are lots and lots of center I'd take over him.
I think Blake deserves a bump. He's not quite that tier with Duncan and Dirk and Barkley and those other guys but he's knocked on the door last season (and Im talking about just that one season). He had a much less disappointing playoffs than usual too.
Harden has put up some very empty stats in my mind. Even if you look past his defense, which is definitely among the worst in the league, he really has fallen short in all of his playoffs. He definitely disappeared last year despite Dwight giving them a real chance to advance, and he was worthless in stretches of that finals run in OKC.
Parish is hard to say. Probably top 50. I'd have to think about it, but he was great early in boston, and he lasted forever. Possibly at some point the third best center in the league.
Nash is at least top 35 probably. He's one of the best offensive players ever. I think two of his phoenix teams were statistically top 10 offenses ever when adjusted in a season by season basis. 4 in the top 20. I think the only other guys who have done that are Jordan, Stockton & Malone, and Magic. If he had any sort of impact in terms of rebounding or defense he would've been a top 20 player IMO, and that's really the only reason his teams kept losing. They never kept up in those categories despite being dominant on offense.
Dirk I'd say is similar to Nash. I'm sure people will say his championship separates him, but they really aren't different in impact. I mean, Dirk also never contributed much except his offense, and I don't think he was as good on that side as Nash. He was a good, but not elite rebounder for a few years. He never changed games by getting boards like Shaq or Duncan did in the same era, and by the time he was a champion Dwyane Wade was getting as many rebounds as him in the playoffs. Of course Dirk had his best season since 2011 last year, so I'd say he has plenty of chance for improvement if he puts up a couple more borderline top 10 in the league seasons.
KG is top 20. I think I have him at like 15. He's a top 10 defender ever, head of arguably the best defense ever in 08 Boston, one of the best passers ever at his position, one of the best rebounders ever at his position, gets your 20-25 points, will fit with literally any team you put him on, can play Center to Small forward, can guard 3 positions, and maybe shooting guard too if it's a good matchup. His 04 seasons is probably the best ever by a power forward in my mind. Not a dominant scorer, but dominant in every other way. Kind of similar to Russell in that sense.[/QUOTE]
Thanks man, really good response.
We think so much differently but I love hearing your perspective because it makes me consider things from a different angle.
Care to do a quick breakdown of KG, Malone, Barkley ranking them in scoring, rebounding, passing, defense with a few thoughts plus an overall general ranking?
GOAT, I'm curious...
Do you already have all the spots decided or are you thinking it over day by day?
And, how much longer do you think it will take you to finish this? I'm excited for the top 100, and especially top 50/25/10.
Finally, have you done this on ISH before? I couldn't find any threads from past years.
I'm surprised to see Noah on this list and above some other current bigs like his former teammate Boozer and past bigs like Buck Williams. And I like Noah.
Groza teammate Spivey was a star in the Eastern league along with other NBA rejects like Hal Lear and John Chaney.
[QUOTE=RRR3]GOAT, I'm curious...
Do you already have all the spots decided or are you thinking it over day by day?[/quote]
I have a list, over 1000 players with 25 columns of criteria, but it's constantly fluid. I don't make a lot of regular changes during the list process here because I spend most of time editing and adding to their mini-bios I've written.
[QUOTE=RRR3]And, how much longer do you think it will take you to finish this? I'm excited for the top 100, and especially top 50/25/10.[/quote]
Well so far I'm going at a pretty fast clip. In 12 days I've coverd over 60 players more than five a day. At that pace I'll be done in a little over a month. Depending on how good the debate/conversation gets once we get into the top 100, I'd say anywhere from Mid-September to Early October as a finish point. I will have it done before the tip-off of the 2014-15 season.
[QUOTE=RRR3]Finally, have you done this on ISH before? I couldn't find any threads from past years.[/QUOTE]
The original thread was in 2009, there were some additions from there, a short lived update in 2012 and there is another thread with my updated top 100 from 2011 ish somewhere. Here's the links I could find.
[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143465"]Original Thread[/URL]
Very short 2012 update starts at page 108.
[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=268753"]Updated top 100 2011 list[/URL], released before 2012 off-season editing.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I'm surprised to see Noah on this list and above some other current bigs like his former teammate Boozer and past bigs like Buck Williams. And I like Noah.[/quote]
I may have gone too high here, prisoner of the moment stuff. But he was damn good last year. A better year than Buck or Boozer ever had, still in terms of career, I surely see their case over him.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Groza teammate Spivey was a star in the Eastern league along with other NBA rejects like Hal Lear and John Chaney.[/QUOTE]
I'd love any info you have on them via PM. I have a few books, but even they barely touch on the Eastern League.
[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Thanks man, really good response.
We think so much differently but I love hearing your perspective because it makes me consider things from a different angle.
Care to do a quick breakdown of KG, Malone, Barkley ranking them in scoring, rebounding, passing, defense with a few thoughts plus an overall general ranking?[/QUOTE]
Sure.
Scoring, I'd definitely say Barkley's first. Not only did he put up volume, but he was insanely efficient (lead the league in TS% four years running) and I think he was one of those guys like Shaq who's scoring stats don't do them justice even if the numbers were great on their own. Second is probably Malone. Great scorer, but more in the flow of the offense which hurt him late in games and in the playoffs. There are a couple playoff series where he just couldn't get a shot up and the Jazz lost it because of that. KG is three. Probably could've scored more if he wanted to, but he didn't like playing in the post where he was probably most effective for whatever reason. Very good second scoring option ideally.
Rebounding I'd say Barkley has a very slight advantage over KG. Honestly they're more or less equal, and I might say something different tommorow. I think the only difference is Barkley was still getting 12 rebounds a game his last couple years, where Boston struggled with rebounding after 08 because KG lost his ability with his athleticism. Malone was a very good but not great rebounder. His rebounding ability probably lasted longer than KG too, but he was never dominant.
Passing Ill give to KG by a little bit. KG was fantastic at keeping everyone moving from up top. He basically ran the offense in Minnesota for stretches. Barkley was more of an inside out guy and was nearly as good in terms of impact but wasn't quite the natural passer KG was. Malone was an idiot sometimes in terms of passing early in his career, but by the time he was getting to the finals I'd say he was basically Barkley's equal. All three are some of the best passers at their position ever.
Defense I'd say is definitely going to KG. He's the best pick and roll defender ever, and one of the best 5 defenders ever in my mind. All the way up to age 34 or 35 I'd say he had an argument for best defender in the league, and he was much better in his late 20s. He could guard all sorts of players, and he kept moving around the court. Malone is definitely second. I'd say he improved at this as his career went on too, though he was always a very very good defender. Barkley had some value as a defender early in his career. Not conventionally, because he always made mistakes and didn't really give a full effort, but he created problems for an offense by creating havoc with steals and blocks, and he could guard most positions.
Overall I'd say Kevin Garnett has a healthy lead at first, I think Barkley is clearly better in his prime, than Malone, but then you have to ask would you want 6 years of Barkleys prime with another 5 or so all star seasons tacked on or a guy who was an all star 17 maybe even 18 years with 14 or more a top ten player in the league. I've actually changed my mind on the subject a lot. They both had equal shots at a championship 93 and 97 for Barkley with maybe 95 and 97, 98 for Malone with maybe 04. I think I'd pick Malone, because if you have 14 years of a top ten player, you're going to have tons of chance at a championship, but really it's a toss up.
Wow that ended up being pretty long....
Oh and I'd say KG is about 15 ever, Barkley and Malone in the 25-30 range.
I started watching ball the season Brad D. retired. So i just missed him. However I do remember him on NBA Jam. He came into the league when Kareem Moses amd Parish were still all stars and left with Shaq Deke and Mourning entering the league.
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#159 Joe Marcus Johnson
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B]
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #1/#2/#3 on solid playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 21-4-5-1 on 45/36/81
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]I[/SIZE] don’t know who I blame more. Phoenix for being cheap and foolish or Johnson for being petty and holding a grudge. The Suns should have locked him up along with Nash, Marion and Stoudemire in 2005 and had the best core in the West for the next four years. But they didn't. Johnson went to Atlanta, played on a good but not great team, showed flashes of stardom but ultimately was just a good scorer and all-star level player. Johnson was drafted by the Celtics in 2001 and quickly traded for a guy who played at Kentucky, making it feel like Rick Pitino was still there. In Phoenix, the sharpshooting Johnson showed gradual improvement and in 2004-05 when Steve Nash arrived, the Suns took off. Johnson had the best year of his career averaging 17/5/4 on 46/48/75. He seemed set for life as a spot-up shooter and backup ball handler for the Suns. But he wanted more, he needed respect, so he signed with the Hawks in 2005. In Atlanta he posted the best numbers of his career and played the major role as the Hawks went from 23 to 30 to 37 to 47 to 53 wins in his first five seasons. They made the playoffs five straight years, reaching the second round in 2009, ‘10 and ‘11. Johnson however saw his production drop in each postseason and questions were being raised. From there both Johnson and the Hawks took a step down. Teamed with Josh Smith and Al Horford, the Hawks were good, but not legit contenders. Something needed to change. The attrition began with Johnson in 2012. He moved on to Brooklyn. Last season Johnson had the best postseason of his career at age 32. He averaged 21 ppg on 53/42/84 shooting. Perhaps he’s back in a comfortable role as a complimentary star and not the centerpiece. Time will tell, but with seven all-star selections and an all-NBA nod in 2010 plus a 25-4-4 season under his belt, Johnson is already an all-time NBA great, just not among the greatest.
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#158 Baron Walter Louis Davis
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (5)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on Borderline Playoff Teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-4-8-2 on 41/32/72
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]I[/SIZE]t’s always fun rooting for the underdog and after Baron Davis posted 33 points 14 rebounds and 8 assists as the eighth seeded Warriors upset the top seeded Mavericks in game one of their first round playoff series in 2007, the bandwagon started filling real fast. Dallas had won the West the year before and had the MVP, a 7-foot German Forward, the Warriors hadn't won a playoff series in almost twenty years and barely had a guy above 6’7” in their rotation. After splitting the next two Dallas jumped on Golden State early in game four, went up by double digits even, but after Davis hit a half court buzzer beater to tie the halftime score, it seemed like destiny was stepping in. Davis finished the game with 33-8-4 on 12-17 shooting and the Warriors were on their way to a major upset. Most of you probably remember that as well as I do, fewer are likely to remember the other time Davis carried a team over a superstar to a playoff series win. Five years prior to winning with the Warriors, Davis created a buzz in the final season of Charlotte Hornets basketball. Despite having the home court advantage, when all-star forward Jamal Mashburn was unable to play for the playoffs many thought Orlando would advance easily. Game one was an all-time who wants it less game, and considering that Davis scored the last of his and the Hornets points with 2:30 to play and put them up by four, you’d think they’d have been down 1-0, but they won 80-79. After the Magic took game two they seemed like a lock to steal the series. That set up an all-time early round playoff duel when McGrady and Davis went head to head in a classic third game. A thrilling game came down to a tie with 0.7 seconds to play. Davis came off a screen on a side out of bounds, caught the ball at the top right wing and banked in a three just before the buzzer. It didn’t count though because Bernie Fryer was too busy waving off to realize it should have ended the game. His blown call would not deter Davis and the Hornets though they rolled through overtime and won by ten. Davis finished with 33-14-10 edging out McGrady’s 37-7-5 and follow it up with a game four 28-11-10 to send the Hornets into the second round. That’s why Baron Davis so fascinating. He could have been one of the best, but injuries and poor decision making made him one of the rest. In 2002 and 2007 we saw an elite player. Had he had health and focus and motivation every year, he could have Dwyane Wade or Russell Westbrook. But he was Baron Davis and even that was pretty damn good. [/FONT][/SIZE]
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Joe Johnson is Mr consistent. You know what you're gonna get from him year in and year out.
B. DIDDY is the complete opposite. GSW Diddy vs. Dallas or LA Clippers B Diddy. Charlotte vs. Orlando or NYKs.
Baron Davis was an animal in those playoffs. Warriors were the 8th seed, Mavs 1st seed. That Warriors team completely shit on the Mavs season. Dirk got the MVP, Mavs won the most games in the entire league and than get bounced in the 1st round :oldlol:
GS's crowd was ridiculous.
i looked back at your list in the previous years and John Stockton dropped 20 spots. lets wait and see if he is now out of your top 50.
How is Marion so low???
And ray should definitely be ahead of Reggie.
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#194 Louie Dampier
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 11 (8)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] Best player on ABA playoff teams, 3rd Best player on ABA contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-3-6 on 44/36/83
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]M[/SIZE]ore than any other player, Louie Dampier's career was missed by basketball fans because of the ABA. Though he did play three NBA seasons, they were late in his career, into his thirties and as a backup for the San Antonio Spurs. But starting with the league and 1967 and seeing it through it's final season in 1976 Dampier played in 822 ABA games for the Kentucky Colonels. He is the ABA's all-time leader in games, minutes played and three-point field goals. For good measure he is also the ABA's all-time leading scorer and assist man. Dampier played his college ball at Kentucky along with Pat Riley. Both were a part of the 1966 team that lost the Championship game to all-Black Texas Western. Drafted by the Royals in the NBA, Dampier opted to join the new ABA and play in his home state. He would make seven all-star teams, four times he was an all-ABA selection. He averaged as many as 26 points a game, poured in 55 one night including 11 threes, and at age 30, he contributed 18 points and 8 assists a night during the Colonels playoff run to their only Championship.
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#193 Michael Howard Finley
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 15 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2 on playoff team/#5 on Championship Team
[B]Prime Averages:[/B] 21-5-4-1 on 45/38/82
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]here seems to be a distinct lack of Michael Finley type players in the league today. Seemingly the perfect piece for a team, he is athletic, efficent can score inside and out, defend and he almost never turns it over. An off guard with his skill set putting up the type of numbers he did would be an all-star and/or all-NBA lock today. However a decade ago Finley couldn't break into the elite group. For Finley his climb to NBA stardom started in Phoenix as a role player, when he signed with Dallas it was to get an opportunity for more playing time. During his very best seasons from 1998 to 2001 he played more minutes than any other NBA player. He made two all-star teams and was regularly receiving minimal MVP votes. He was the first piece to the puzzle in turning the Mavericks franchise around. After he was in place, Dallas drafted Dirk Nowitzki, traded for Juwan Howard, signed Steve Nash and the rest is history. After five consecutive 50-win seasons, but only one conference finals trip, the Mavericks decided to reshape their roster and Finley signed with Texas rival and defending NBA Champion San Antonio. After the Spurs lost to the Mavericks in the 2006 playoffs and watched Dallas advance to the Finals, Finley and his teammates were hungry. Accepting a smaller role as the fifth starter and playing just under 30 minutes per game, Finley brought shooting, defense and that hunger for a title to the table as the Spurs won it all in 2007. [/FONT][/SIZE]
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It doesn't effect the ranking or piece itself but Dallas traded for finley and Nash(obviously in different deals) they didn't sign with dallas