BREAKING: Cavs officially sign Andrew Wiggins

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]What you dont seem to understand...which is my point....

[B]Is that the worst case scenerio(of course barring injury) is an incredible team that fails to win the title.[/B]

When that is your worst case...nothing you did was disastrous or worthy of your front office being called out.

The Cavs from what I can see have done a good job especially looking forward at their cap situation.

Youre pretty much watching someone hit the powerball the week after its 500 million and someone else won the big one and acting like it was a bad outcome.

"Only" getting 90 million is not failing. And vastly improving your team isnt either...even if you *gasp* dont win the title every year.

The options arent...perfection...and failure,.

Success...is the team contending for and possibly winning a title.

The rest is up to the basketball gods.

You do all this hating on what that team could be the right 2 ankles roll(Say...Noah and Westbrook) they could go 16-3 in the playoffs.

All you can do is put your team in position to fight and hope you ride out the storm better than the 4-5 others always in contention.

This trade would do that.

Making it a good trade.[/QUOTE]
The worst case scenario is actually Love staying for a year and then signing elsewhere. From everything I've heard, his trade will not include an immediate extension -- ala Harden and Melo -- and possibly may not even include his opting in for 2015-16.

I don't think people are looking at Love's contractual situation nearly closely enough. It's just assumed that if we trade for him, he's going to be here a long time. That's never something that comes with a guarantee when a guy has one year left on his deal. I don't care who he's playing with or where it's happening, let alone in Cleveland (I say that as a happy resident of Greater Cleveland).

Unless he actually puts pen to paper with an extension or -- at the very least -- an opt-in for another year, there is a real risk that we lose him next year. There are so many variables, some in our control and some not. It could be a team thing or a coaching thing or a city/location thing or something that some other "prime" market does in the next 365 days that blows him away. We just don't know.

Not absolutely knowing he's going to be here beyond one season and giving up a prospect like Andrew Wiggins? I just don't understand it. Let alone all of the other stuff that is being reported as throw-ins on the deal.

[QUOTE=LBJFTW][B]Looking more and more like the Cavs are NOT trading Wiggins for Love, which as already stated, is the smart move for the long term.[/B]

"Trade wiggins now so that Bron is happy and won't leave!" - cried the eager beaver.

The Cavs front office doesn't give a F'k what Bron wants. He burned them once, and they sure as hell won't put themselves in position to get burned again, and are therefore covering their bases very well.

If he wants to stay, so be it. But the Cavs aren't banking on his word, and are (as they should) preparing themselves for anything.

If you're wondering what this strategy is called, it's called not being a dumb ass.[/QUOTE]
I wish what you're saying was true. I don't believe it is, unfortunately.

Rape the east? As a worst case? No.

Id have to see what Wiggins is first. He could be Darius Miles(similar athletes...Wiggins a better shooter...Miles a better ball handler and passer...both potentially great defenders...Miles never got there).

He could be Tmac.

If hes Tmac its a bit of redundancy with even an aging Lebron. But so was Wade.

Who knows. All depends on him.

We know what Love is. A young HOF player who I wouldnt want as my franchise player....but would be among the best #3s...in the history of the sport.

[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]The worst case scenario is actually Love staying for a year and then signing elsewhere. From everything I've heard, his trade will not include an immediate extension -- ala Harden and Melo -- and possibly may not even include his opting in for 2015-16.

I don't think people are looking at Love's contractual situation nearly closely enough. It's just assumed that if we trade for him, he's going to be here a long time. That's never something that comes with a guarantee when a guy has one year left on his deal. I don't care who he's playing with or where it's happening, let alone in Cleveland (I say that as a happy resident of Greater Cleveland).

Unless he actually puts pen to paper with an extension or -- at the very least -- an opt-in for another year, there is a real risk that we lose him next year. There are so many variables, some in our control and some not. It could be a team thing or a coaching thing or a city/location thing or something that some other "prime" market does in the next 365 days that blows him away. We just don't know.

Not absolutely knowing he's going to be here beyond one season and giving up a prospect like Andrew Wiggins? I just don't understand it. Let alone all of the other stuff that is being reported as throw-ins on the deal.[/QUOTE]


I think we would all agree that trading for Love without him at least giving you strong indications he would resign would be questionable.

Not being near the guy I cant speak on that. I will just assume the cavs arent that stupid.

Is that not an assumption you are working from? could they...be so stupid?

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Rape the east? As a worst case? No.

Id have to see what Wiggins is first. He could be Darius Miles(similar athletes...Wiggins a better shooter...Miles a better ball handler and passer...both potentially great defenders...Miles never got there).

He could be Tmac.

If hes Tmac its a bit of redundancy with even an aging Lebron. But so was Wade.

Who knows. All depends on him.

We know what Love is. A young HOF player who I wouldnt want as my franchise player....but would be among the best #3s...in the history of the sport.[/QUOTE]

If Wiggins is Kawhi Leonard...that team rapes the East and fails to win over the coming years as the worst case scenario.

I'm still trying to understand how a team with Thompson/Love/Old Andy as it's bigs with horrible guard defense...and an aging Lebron that clearly does not want to go all out defensively anymore...is winning anything.

Where would the team you are building rank defensively? Like bottom 10 in league unless Lebron plays 40 minutes a game and goes all out on defense?

What do you think the current Cavs with Larry Sanders and a sharp shooting forward tweener in Middelton would finish while keeping Wiggins and Bennett? You really think they aren't contending in the East? That they aren't winning 50 plus games with ease?

If you are willing to give up year 1 like you said...why not do that and actually find out what you have?

I mean...this team as currently constructed likely can't win the title, but they'd finish top 3 in conference and be live to advance to the finals because of how shitty the conference is.

So I don't see the risk you keep talking about.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]What you dont seem to understand...which is my point....

Is that the worst case scenerio(of course barring injury) is an incredible team that fails to win the title.

When that is your worst case...nothing you did was disastrous or worthy of your front office being called out.

The Cavs from what I can see have done a good job especially looking forward at their cap situation.

Youre pretty much watching someone hit the powerball the week after its 500 million and someone else won the big one and acting like it was a bad outcome.

"Only" getting 90 million is not failing. And vastly improving your team isnt either...even if you *gasp* dont win the title every year.

The options arent...perfection...and failure,.

Success...is the team contending for and possibly winning a title.

The rest is up to the basketball gods.

You do all this hating on what that team could be the right 2 ankles roll(Say...Noah and Westbrook) they could go 16-3 in the playoffs.

All you can do is put your team in position to fight and hope you ride out the storm better than the 4-5 others always in contention.

This trade would do that.

Making it a good trade.[/QUOTE]

true but...
nobody wants realism on ISH

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]true but...
nobody wants realism on ISH[/QUOTE]

the problem with kblaze...and perhaps you (not sure) is that there are other ways to accomplish exactly what he is saying.

while not giving up 20% of what the Cavs are reportedly giving up to get Love.

That is the big point that needs to be heard.

This Cavs team is currently loaded not only with potential, but with quality players in a shit conference. If the standard is just have an incredible team that fails to win the title...

The Cavs can accomplish that in so many other ways while also keeping their flexibility wide open and actually find out what they really have in some of these young guys

And I'm for Wiggins being traded for Love...I'm just not for gutting the entire ****ing team of all 3 first rounders, Haywood, 6 million in cap relief, taking back Martin...not getting Dieng...etc.

That is just absurd.

And it wouldn't mind it as much if the Cavs had different players. I mean...if the Cavs had Marc Gasol/Klay Thompson instead of Kyrie/Waiters/Thompson....okay...then I'd gut the team for Love.

But the defense is a real problem from a basketball standpoint.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]I think we would all agree that trading for Love without him at least giving you [B]strong indications[/B] he would resign would be questionable.

Not being near the guy I cant speak on that. I will just assume the cavs arent that stupid.

Is that not an assumption you are working from? could they...be so stupid?[/QUOTE]
I need more than strong indications. I'm pretty sure the Lakers were extremely confident -- maybe to a fault -- that when they made the trade for Dwight Howard, he was going to be a Laker for a long time. Different circumstances, obviously, but if you're making a trade without a guarantee -- with his pen, not with his mouth -- that he's going to be there longer than a year, said organization may find itself putting up billboards like this one a year later...

[IMG]https://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptusnbaexperts/Straight-to-the-point.-Photo-via-@Lakers.jpg[/IMG]


I'm really not interested in his word. I want him to pick up that option [B]at the very least[/B]. Carlos Boozer completely burned us a decade ago after giving us 'strong indications' that by not picking up his team option, he'd re-sign here.

And, we weren't potentially giving up a talent like Andrew Wiggins back then. Pen to paper is the only guarantee I would accept if they want to discuss Wiggins. And, again... I've heard he won't be extending immediately anywhere and that he plans to go forward with his free agency next year regardless of where he's traded.

That is an absolutely huge factor, here.

Dieng is nobody till proven otherwise, Martin is a good player on a good deal, and picks after the top 25 range gets you like 4 starters the last 5 years none of them special players. though one of them did just get 15 million to be Dirks Kevin Martin.

Ive not seen a better example of making a mountain out of a mole hill in some time.

This trade goes down nothing you mentioned will ever so much as be a footnote in history and they wont win or lose based on any of them being included or not.

And im not ranking a teams defense ive never seen. lebron aside the 2010 Cavs got 10 starts from anyone id call a good defender. Go look at the 09 Cavs roster. #1 defense.

You seeing a bunch of defensive juggernauts?

Good defenses are mostly built off coaching.

Im not prepared to say the Cavs new coach cant coach a defense.

I suspect Thibs given the Cavs assumed roster would not have a bottom 10 defense.

[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]I need more than strong indications. I'm pretty sure the Lakers were extremely confident -- maybe to a fault -- that when they made the trade for Dwight Howard, he was going to be a Laker for a long time. Different circumstances, obviously, but if you're making a trade without a guarantee -- with his pen, not with his mouth -- that he's going to be there longer than a year, said organization may find itself putting up billboards like this one a year later...

[IMG]https://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptusnbaexperts/Straight-to-the-point.-Photo-via-@Lakers.jpg[/IMG]


I'm really not interested in his word. I want him to pick up that option [B]at the very least[/B]. Carlos Boozer completely burned us a decade ago after giving us 'strong indications' that by not picking up his team option, he'd re-sign here.

And, we weren't potentially giving up a talent like Andrew Wiggins back then. Pen to paper is the only guarantee I would accept if they want to discuss Wiggins. And, again... I've heard he won't be extending immediately anywhere and that he plans to go forward with his free agency next year regardless of where he's traded.

That is an absolutely huge factor, here.[/QUOTE]

I've avoided using this as part of my argument because it feels a bit like cheating, but if we are going to talk worst case scenario stuff.

Well...worst case scenario is that Love and Lebron dont' get along...or Love hates living in Cleveland...they flame out in the playoffs in year 1 and Love says he's out.

Just another reason you don't make a ****ing terrible trade when you don't have to.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Dieng is nobody till proven otherwise, Martin is a good player on a good deal, and picks after the top 25 range gets you like 4 starters the last 5 years none of them special players. though one of them did just get 15 million to be Dirks Kevin Martin.

Ive not seen a better example of making a mountain out of a mole hill in some time.

This trade goes down nothing you mentioned will ever so much as be a footnote in history and they wont win or lose based on any of them being included or not.

And im not ranking a teams defense ive never seen. lebron aside the 2010 Cavs got 10 starts from anyone id call a good defender. Go look at the 09 Cavs roster. #1 defense.

You seeing a bunch of defensive juggernauts?

Good defenses are mostly built off coaching.

Im not prepared to say the Cavs new coach cant coach a defense.

I suspect Thibs given the Cavs assumed roster would not have a bottom 10 defense.[/QUOTE]


You can't ignore what players you have on a team. I know you are in favor of just throwing talent at the wall and hoping it sticks, but ugh...Irving, Martin, Waiters at guard? Love, Andy, Thompson as bigs? That is not good team building...

Those picks and cap flexibility does matter. Again, you keep comparing this to the Heat.

Irving does not sniff prime Wade. Love, does not sniff Bosh on versatility for defense.

See. The thing that apparently secretly made the Heat work was that they could go small with Bosh at center and still be elite defensively because Wade and Lebron were just that good on defense.

Lebron isn't gonna do that consistently anymore...they don't have a guard half as good as Wade defensively...and they can't go small with Love at center consistently.

Again...everything you have said can be accomplished by not giving up much at all.

Your standard is absurdly low;

"have an incredible team and fail to win the title"

Again...you can do that in so many other ways while actually seeing what you have. What if Bennett is good enough to play real minutes as the stretch 4 next to Lebron and they make a move for an elite defensive center...and they keep Wiggins and let him develop next to Kyrie, Allen, and Miller?

If Love was kg, dirk, and duncan...then you do it. He's not...and you don't have the proper team either...so you don't give up everything for him.



So when the Cavs lose in the playoffs because of defense...nobody will mention it? LOL...just no.

Both Cavs and Wolves sources haven't heard anything about Wiggins being on the table. I highly doubt he's getting traded. Love trade really looks like a deadline deal to me, depending on Wiggins' value/development and Minnesota's situation.

Way I see it is Cavs need to get other teams involved. Trade Waiters for Thad then

Thad Young + Bennett + Thompson + Thomas + Lucas III + 3 first round picks for Kevin Love, Kevin Martin and JJ Barea.

Thompson to Charlorte for Henderson + picks.

Thats it. Im a genius

Once you assume Wiggins and Bennett are in it...there is nothing else worthy of being called "everything".

You have us on here talking about Georgui ****ing Deing, being saddled with a 4.5 million dollar expiring deal, and losing out on picks likely to result in Reggie Bullock, Livio Jean-Charles, and Christian Eyenga.

You get lucky now and then? sure.

Not likely enough to pass up on a deal that makes your floor...contention.

But you seem stuck on discussing the cash considerations, overseas prospects that never develop, and parking lots that get tossed into nba deals to make money work. Feel free.

I'll leave you with this....

History will remember this deal as "Kevin Love for andrew wiggins Anthony Bennet and filler". And thats assuming Bennett is ever anything worth remembering. Which he may....but we dont know.

You wanna type all night about 10th men....enjoy.

So...it's, not have the full team in year 1...and we are cool with that.

But not if the Cavs make a small move that vastly improves their interior defense and they get to see what Wiggins and Bennett really have to offer?

When the worst case scenario, barring injury, is have a team that wins 50 plus and makes the conference finals...while finding out a lot about what you have.

I just don't see the risk/reward there at all if we are good with tossing out year 1.

Not like Wiggins won't be hugely valuable as a trade piece even if he isn't great right away.