Dunking Data For 1988-1993: MJ is the Goat In-Game Dunker for Wing Players

meyhta24 digging deep - going back to cleveland days to find Lebron chest-to-chesters...

and if you had told me you were going to do that, i would have known exactly which dunks you would post, because Lebron only has a few chest-to-chesters in cleveland too.

Jordan has more posters from 1 year of his career than Lebron had in his entire career.
.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]dunks from the cleveland years:

[IMG]http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/185335/lebron-dunking-on-timmy-o.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1230850/lebron-dunks-on-garnet-o.gif[/IMG]

when defenses are taken into account, lebron james is the GOAT ingame dunker.

:eek: [B]OMFG at the dunk on damon jones. terror.[/B][/QUOTE]

LeBron, the midget assassin :bowdown:

Now look at how easily he gets to the basket since no one can impede his progress physically w/o handchecking. Dude is bee-lining to the basket in the half court.. then compare it to this:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

When has LeBron ever had to work that hard for 1 dunk? :confusedshrug:

duncan and garnett aren't midgets lol

[QUOTE=3ball]Also, you can't get by this..

In 1988, Jordan got 158 dunks - at that time, dunks were completed league-wide once in every 28.7 shots.

In 2013, Lebron got his career-high of 144 dunks... but it was a lot easier to dunk - dunks were completed once in every 21.1 shots in 2013.

[B]Jordan got more dunks when it was harder to dunk and now there's actually stats to prove it.[/B][/QUOTE]

read the links i posted via sports illustrated. byron scott, larry bird, and ainge specifically state today's defenses are tougher and the spacing is worse, especially in the paint.

also read the bit on colangelo and the grueling defenses e.g. zones and traps

[quote][COLOR="White"].[/COLOR][IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG][/quote]nice gif don

LMAO

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Might as well chisel his name on the award now. Shit is a landslide :applause:

[IMG]http://elyriact.smugmug.com/Sports/Pro-Basketball/Kyrie-Irving-Rookie-of-the/i-9LtDWmF/0/M/RookieoftheYearIrvingBasketbal-M.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]


:rockon: :cheers:

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]nice gif don

LMAO[/QUOTE]

You gonna show me any example of 'advanced defense' that made Bron work that hard to get a dunk?

You can watch the whole play here:

[url]http://youtu.be/YSuBBfFrgHI?t=58s[/url]

Knicks start out in a full court press, once Jordan catches it he's immediately double teamed on the wing, he beats that only to run into a double trap in the corner, he crab dribbles/Houdinis his way out, only to be met by a camping 7 ft shot blocker who actually challenges his dunk attempt instead of going for a charge. You'll notice he had hands all over him on the perimeter too, all of which would be called for touch fouls today.

Show me ONE example of defense more 'advanced' than that. I'll be waiting :cheers:

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]read the links i posted via sports illustrated. byron scott, larry bird, and ainge specifically state the spacing is worse, especially in the paint.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure that is not what they meant.. they would be in the severe minority for sure.

When you say that the spacing is worse today, especially in the paint, it weakens you're subsequent points because it is common knowledge that the spacing in the paint is unbelievable in today's game, due to the fact that defenders are not allowed to be in there and unprecedented spacing is created by the 21.5 three-pointers taken per game by each team (compared to 5 per game in 1988).

Anyway, this is the type of dunk Lebron can't do... he's too bulky to slide between defenders like that, plus it's pretty much a straight vert... also, Lebron would have passed it before he even faced that type of congestion - amirite?

The sad thing for Lebron, is that he can't do this at 29, let alone 35 like Jordan was at the time.

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_dunks_on_Ostertag_47f5b1aaa51700634363c3b17c56dcba.gif[/IMG]

btw.. this is what i mean by chest-to-chest.

Damn, crossed Shandon Anderson up then threw it down on a legit 7' big man.

[QUOTE=3ball]I'm sure that is not what they meant.. they would be in the severe minority for sure.

When you say that the spacing is worse today, especially in the paint, it weakens you're subsequent points because it is common knowledge that the spacing in the paint is unbelievable in today's game, due to the fact that defenders are not allowed to be in there and unprecedented spacing is created by the 21.5 three-pointers taken per game by each team (compared to 5 per game in 1988).

Anyway, this is the type of dunk Lebron can't do... he's too bulky to slide between defenders like that, plus it's pretty much a straight vert... also, Lebron would have passed it before he even faced that type of congestion - amirite?

The sad thing for Lebron, is that he can't do this at 29, let alone 35 like Jordan was at the time.

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_dunks_on_Ostertag_47f5b1aaa51700634363c3b17c56dcba.gif[/IMG]

btw.. this is what i mean by chest-to-chest.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, pretty absurd that guys are actually trying to argue that spacing isn't much better now. The elimination of handchecking, the 3 second lane rule were done specifically and explicitly to accomplish that. Guys are getting to the hole and dunking more than ever and are taking 22 3s per game. Life is great for perimeter players. They are experiencing a luxury in this era that wings couldn't dream of in the past.

All you have to do is watch game footage to see the sort of magic Jordan was pulling on a nightly basis just to get buckets in the no man's land that was the NBA paint:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1FsD9Y7NfY[/url]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UC-BBSLgS8[/url]

How can anyone with a straight face watch that after seeing Bron waltz into the paint untouched and uncontested and say that spacing is worse now? :biggums:

And all the gifs posted remind of the fact that guys would much rather get out of the way or at best try to take a charge these days instead of challenging guys at the rim. That Hibbert verticality :oldlol:

Honorable mention for the 6'4" nig[COLOR="Black"]ga[/COLOR] :pimp:

[img]http://media.giphy.com/media/lR8Tut3C7gxcA/giphy.gif[/img]

[img]http://media1.giphy.com/media/Pw6CVDnw1D03K/200.gif[/img]

[img]http://media.giphy.com/media/dsfJzt1sLzdba/giphy.gif[/img]

[img]http://media.giphy.com/media/sggjNVws3IGLC/giphy.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=fpliii]Thanks.

I actually found this after looking:

[url]www.nba.com/sixers/misc/2010_pollack_stats_.html[/url]

and filled in the missing years from basketball-reference.com (it seems there are slight difference, of a handful from your totals, so I think both are good):

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014.html[/url]

using the "Team Shooting" table. 2007 seemed to be a mistake (he had 5191), so I double checked, and corrected it.

Here's my data, I tried looking at it in a few ways:

[CODE]Year GP Pace FGA 3PA Dunks Dks/GP Poss/Dk FGA/Dk 2PA/Dk
1988 943 99.6 87.7 5.0 5757 6.1 32.6 28.7 27.1
1989 1025 100.6 89.0 6.6 6475 6.3 31.9 28.2 26.1
1990 1107 98.3 87.2 6.6 7011 6.3 31.0 27.5 25.5
1991 1107 97.8 87.2 7.1 7241 6.5 29.9 26.7 24.5
1992 1107 96.6 87.3 7.6 8122 7.3 26.3 23.8 21.7
1993 1107 96.8 86.0 9.0 8252 7.5 26.0 23.1 20.7
1994 1107 95.1 84.4 9.9 8515 7.7 24.7 21.9 19.4
1995 1107 92.9 81.5 15.3 8645 7.8 23.8 20.9 17.0
1996 1189 91.8 80.2 16.0 8468 7.1 25.8 22.5 18.0
1997 1189 90.1 79.3 16.8 8460 7.1 25.3 22.3 17.6
1998 1189 90.3 79.7 12.7 9318 7.8 23.0 20.3 17.1
1999 725 88.9 78.2 13.2 4681 6.5 27.5 24.2 20.1
2000 1189 93.1 82.1 13.7 8325 7.0 26.6 23.5 19.5
2001 1189 91.3 80.6 13.7 7319 6.2 29.7 26.2 21.7
2002 1189 90.7 81.3 14.7 8446 7.1 25.5 22.9 18.8
2003 1189 91.0 80.8 14.7 8248 6.9 26.2 23.3 19.1
2004 1189 90.1 79.8 14.9 8146 6.9 26.3 23.3 18.9
2005 1230 90.9 80.3 15.8 9150 7.4 24.4 21.6 17.3
2006 1230 90.5 79.0 16.0 8633 7.0 25.8 22.5 18.0
2007 1230 91.9 79.7 16.9 8321 6.8 27.2 23.6 18.6
2008 1230 92.4 81.5 18.1 9261 7.5 24.5 21.6 16.8
2009 1230 91.7 80.9 18.1 9362 7.6 24.1 21.3 16.5
2010 1230 92.7 81.7 18.1 8785 7.1 26.0 22.9 17.8
2011 1230 92.1 81.2 18.0 8906 7.2 25.4 22.4 17.5
2012 990 91.3 81.4 18.4 7324 7.4 24.7 22.0 17.0
2013 1229 92.0 82.0 20.0 9325 7.6 24.3 21.6 16.3
2014 1230 93.9 83.0 21.5 9035 7.3 25.6 22.6 16.7[/CODE][/QUOTE]
Awesome table - how would you interpret the data in your table?

For my purposes, pace ties into the equation when i compare the number of dunks for two players in different eras, because the numbers need to be adjusted for pace.

But once the number of dunks for each player is adjusted for pace, they can be effectively compared with a look at the average difficulty of dunking in that season, which are the fga/dunk stats above.

Lebron got 128 dunks in 2009 and his team played at a 88.7 pace.
Jordan got 158 dunks in 1988 (same age) and his team played at a 95.5 pace.

Adjusted for pace, Jordan's dunks are 158/(95.5/88.7) = 146.75

To see if Jordan's 19 dunk advantage over Lebron holds any weight, refer to the FGA/Dunk Stat from each year... 1988 shows a difficulty rate of [I]1 dunk every 28.7 FGA[/I], while 2009 shows a difficulty rate of [I]1 dunk every 21.3 FGA[/I].

Conclusion: Jordan's advantage is legit and actually should be adjusted up for the higher difficulty rate.

[QUOTE=3ball]The bolded above is wrong.


Year[COLOR="White"]....... [/COLOR] Shots[COLOR="White"]........ [/COLOR]Dunks[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]Shots Per Dunk

1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61


So it was harder to dunk in Jordan's day, for all the reasons mentioned (no spacing, no defensive 3 seconds, more physical defense, real bigs, better shot contestion, etc, etc, etc).
.[/QUOTE]

I was just ethered. Did I use that term properly? :lol

That said, what is the source of the above? How do I find dunking data for the current seasons?

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]dunks from the cleveland years:

[IMG]http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/185335/lebron-dunking-on-timmy-o.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1230850/lebron-dunks-on-garnet-o.gif[/IMG]

when defenses are taken into account, lebron james is the GOAT ingame dunker.

:eek: OMFG at the dunk on damon jones. terror.[/QUOTE]

lebron against soft center :roll:

[QUOTE=Trollsmasher]bad iso defense by the guard, retarded help by the big man and an extremly late contest by "10 inch vert" Ewing:roll:

Imagine what would LeBron do. Unlike Jordan, he would not actually be detrimental to his team's offense by jacking up 24 shots per game. Those Bulls teams would have few 120 oRTG seasons with him in MJ's place.[/QUOTE]

imagine lebron play against knicks defence,he will be in hosptital now :roll:

[QUOTE=DJ Leon Smith]I agree. Look at the sophisticated defenses and defenders that LeBron carved up in the modern era.

[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg[/IMG]

vs Jordan LOL midgets!

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Trollsmasher got owned again and again :roll: