Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)
[QUOTE=kshutts1]
You really do believe those "facts" that you tell
[/quote]
They're STATS, so they have to be facts - the NBA's player-tracking stats show that lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. So his poor efficiency at higher volume in the 2015 playoffs could've been predicted.. Also, since he can't shoot a good percentage at high volume, we know he can't win a [i]championship[/i] while undertaking high volume.
Btw, you're missing an obvious factor when you talk about pace.. Pace ALWAYS slows down in the playoffs, regardless of era.. Pace was 94 in both the 1988 and 1989 playoffs, which is the same as 2015 playoffs.. Since the playoffs is always a half court game regardless of era, we know there wouldn't be any extra transition in the 80's to offset lebron's halfcourt game, which would struggle without teammates that shot 3-pointers - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.
[quote=kshutts]
Not to debate the merits of said facts
[/quote]
Facts cannot be debated - it cannot be debated that mj increased the stats of his teammates more than lebron - this is a statistical fact.
Just look at the heat.. Wade and bosh's stats were much lower and chemistry was always an issue - Wade and lebron's ON-OFF stats were well-publicized and showed the heat were better when they were not on the floor together.. They still went 2/4 due to talent, but the times they lost, their chemistry and [i]brand of basketball[/i] was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs).. The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are [i]capable of[/i].
Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency (2014 Finals), or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanked his efficiency (2015 Finals).
.
Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)
[QUOTE=3ball]None of this is an argument for why the 2009 cavs won 19 more games than the 1989 bulls even though lebron's stats were slightly worse than MJ's.
The 19 more wins weren't because lebron "controlled his team better".. That's just some shit you made up - I can say the same thing about any player whose stats can't be used to make my argument.
Btw, you say I'm not logical, but you lie and make stuff up - lebron did NOT guard other positions like pg or pf in 2009.. And the idea that he guards them today is also bullshit.. MJ guarded pg's FAR more often than lebron guards big men, and MJ guarded big men as often as lebron guards pg's.. MJ guarded Vlade Divac in 1991 finals and guarded bigs in other instances as well - this is the same amount lebron guards pg's.
Again, your arguments aren't true, and don't compare to the obvious and intuitive arguments staring is in the face - that the 19 more wins are due to the cavs playing worse competition and having a better supporting cast.
.[/QUOTE]
LeBron was definitely guarding more than just wings in '09.
Counting stats are not the be all end all when determining impact. LeBron's cavs had a pace of 88 in 08-09.....MJ's Bulls had a pace of 97.....THIS MEANS LeBron SCORED MORE PER 100 POSSESIONS. He rebounded and assisted significantly more per-100 as well.
The difference is, LeBron got his stats on a slow, grind it out team that won 66 games....MJ got his stats playing mediocre team ball at a much faster pace.
If you just want to look at it stat wise between those two seasons, LeBron had a more impressive line. LeBron also has MJ in PER, WS, and WS-48 for those seasons. He had a higher USG% than MJ, leading the 4th most effective offense....with a USG% of 33 and an assist% of 38% (aka pass first point guard level). Really I can't think of any examples of players who shouldered a larger load for a top 5 offense.
Enjoy these facts and these nuts.
And @ your last post....obviously playing Wade and Bron at the same time is going to lower each of their respective effectiveness....they're both ball handling slashers. When one is doing what he's best at, the other by definition was NOT doing what he was best at. Which is why MJ had a better supporting cast even though prine Wade>prime Pippen if they were the best players on their own teams. You go on about Bosh being a 10 time all star, but he started earning all star bearths when he was a number 1 option. Having him.as your third best scorer is going to reduce his effectiveness. He may be better than another team's third option in a vacuum, but some guys are just better suited to being complementary players. Bosh was overqualified to be a third option, but when you've got two other guys who are better go-to scorers, somebody has to space the floor.
I think about it this way. Obviously prime Bosh>Prime Shane Battier.....but if I want a third option I'm taking prime Battier over a lot of better and more talented players.
Also Lol @ you giving MJ credit for Pippen increasing his stats. High draft picks usual increase their stats regardless. Pippen's stats increasing as he approached his prime is not as impressive as turning Mo Williams from a chucker on one of the worst squads in the league into an efficient All-star/
Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)
[QUOTE=3ball]And WITH Jordan, they were a 3 peat dynasty... The fall to the 2nd round was an utterly massive drop-off.. But im uour mind, basketball players are just numbers-producing robots, you so probably think the Bulls could've made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?
Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.
Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.
Chill bud... There's a reason Shaq said Pippen sucked - the guy could only make the 2nd Round with a 3-peat caliber supporting cast.. :facepalm
And the Bulls would've gone down 3-0 and gotten swept if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series and Pippen's ass with the miracle walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter the game in an epic choke.
If people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 9-peated FOR SURE, and he's not only the goat, but he'll always be the goat (which is probably true for our lifetimes anyway, and probably ever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).
Btw, what good is it to say "[I]kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994[/I]", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place (those were MJ's Finals averages)?.. Kobe's typical 25/5/5 on 45% in the Finals wouldn't have come anywhere NEAR being enough to 3-peat.
So if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with [I][U]MJ's[/U][/I] 3-peat Bulls.
.[/QUOTE]
Those last TWO quotes were NOT MINE.
Now please address MY POST...
[QUOTE]Some of the Jordan "Myths"...
He single-handedly shot his team down the drain against the crumbling '87 Celtics, with a .417 FG% sweeping loss series, which included a clinching game three performance of 9-30 from the field.
He quit on his team in a series that was tied 2-2, with a 4-8 performance, which ultimately cost his team the series.
His teammates were so good without him, that they went 55-27 (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games, they likely would have won 60+, and a possible world title.)
He came back the following season, to the same roster that had gone 55-27 without him, sans Grant, and he couldn't lead them any further than Grant and Pippen had the year before. In fact, it is GRANT who pummels his team with an 18-11 .647 series. Unlike POS Bosh, Grant actually had an IMPACT.
Meanwhile, Lebron joins a Cavs team that had gone 17-65 with their "all-star" center, and immediately doubled their win total. Within a couple of years he dragged one of the worst rosters in NBA history to the team's first Finals in their team history.
He would take that same cast of clowns to records of 66-16 and 61-21.
He left that pathetic team, and they immediately fell to 19-63.
He joined a Heat team that had been routed in the first round the year before. He immediately led them to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. In the next three years he would lead them to three more Finals, and two titles, including one in which his "10 time All-Star" PF scored ZERO points in a game seven.
Lebron leaves the Heat, and with a broken down Wade, and the career loser Bosh, who has been a NON-FACTOR his ENTIRE career, they stumble to a 37-45 record, and can't even make the playoffs in a weak conference.
Meanwhile, Lebron takes a 33-49 team to a 53-29 record, and as trip to yet another Finals. And without his two best teammates, and with his best teammate now the Knick reject JR Smith, who put up a 12-4-1 .326 series...he single-handedly led his team to TWO wins, and two close losses, against a 67-15 Warrior team that blew away the NBA.[/QUOTE]
Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)
3ball too scuuuured
[IMG]http://images.rapgenius.com/598dae3468e0a916d4b4e1a1e73a46a9.500x281x41.gif[/IMG]
Go to church
[IMG]http://cdnl.complex.com/assets/images/lists/hip-hop-gifs/13-CamRon-Eff-Yo-Thread.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdnl.complex.com/assets/images/lists/hip-hop-gifs/7-Hat-Spin.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdnl.complex.com/assets/images/lists/hip-hop-gifs/10-Drake-Falling-Degrasi.gif[/IMG]
Me and Laz like:
[IMG]http://cdnl.complex.com/assets/images/lists/hip-hop-gifs/19-Pop-Champagne.gif[/IMG]
Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)
Ralph and laz - have your fun now - my Internet has been down for a week and will be down until monday.. I've been responding with my phone.
Regardless, I'm not going to respond to laz's bs about mj coming back - the bulls went from 3 peat with mj.. to 2nd round without.. back to 3 peat with mj... This is historical fact - there's nothing to argue about on this, other than the EXTENT to which it makes mj the goat.
As for Ralph - mj took a 6 seed to ECF and 6 games with the champion bad boys.. Lebron took a 1 seed to 2nd round and lost to a nobody team - since the stats are too close, the only argument that can be made is that mj was way better.. Lebron-ball dooms his teams to perennial underachievement in playoffs, while mj's style NEVER resulted in team underachievement.. More later.
Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)
[QUOTE=3ball][B] Lebron took a 1 seed to 2nd round and lost to a nobody team[/B] - [/QUOTE]
he lost in the ECF to a sick Magic team.
or do you mean when the Cavs lost to the Celtics with a bunch of hall of famers?
Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)
[QUOTE=3ball]Ralph and laz - have your fun now - my Internet has been down for a week and will be down until monday.. I've been responding with my phone.
[B]Regardless, I'm not going to respond to laz's bs about mj coming back - the bulls went from 3 peat with mj.. to 2nd round without.. back to 3 peat with mj... This is historical fact - there's nothing to argue about on this, other than the EXTENT to which it makes mj the goat[/B].
As for Ralph - mj took a 6 seed to ECF and 6 games with the champion bad boys.. Lebron took a 1 seed to 2nd round and lost to a nobody team - since the stats are too close, the only argument that can be made is that mj was way better.. Lebron-ball dooms his teams to perennial underachievement in playoffs, while mj's style NEVER resulted in team underachievement.. More later.[/QUOTE]
They went from a a losing team, to a winning team when they added Pippen and Grant. And MJ couldn't get his team over the hump against the Bad Boys until those two dominated Detroit in the '91 ECF's.
Pippen and Grant were so good, that they went 55-27 withOUT Jordan, and came within an eyelash of getting to the ECF's. Hell, if those two hadn't missed a combined 22 games in that '94 season, they easily win 60+, and with HCA throughout the playoffs, they likely win yet another title.
And how valuable was Pippen? With BOTH MJ and Grant gone in the '95 season, he carried the Bulls to a 34-31 record.
And how valuable was Grant? He left the Bulls for the Magic, and immediately improved them from a 50-32 team to a 57-25 team (and then a 60-22 team.) Not only that, but he was a key player in beating MJ's '95 Bulls in the ECSF's.
In fact, those two were so valuable, that when Jordan came back late in the '95 season, that he couldn't overcome Grant's loss, and his team was asily beaten by the Magic in the ECSF's (and in a series in which Grant hung an 18-11 .647 series)...the same Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.
It wasn't until the Bulls ADDED HOFer Rodman to that roster that could win 55 games without MJ, but now with Jordan, that they would go on to their second three-peat.
BTW, Pippen and Grant were winners AFTER Jordan. In fact, Grant would win a ring later on.
Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
Even without Jordan, they almost beat the Knicks in 1994 ECF 2nd Round.
[/QUOTE]
And WITH Jordan, they were a 3 peat dynasty... How is that comparable to an ordinary 2nd Round team - that's an utterly massive drop-off..
Of course, since basketball players are just numbers-producing robots, you so probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games and made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?
Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.
Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
MJ hindered pippen's ability to be a leader
[/QUOTE]
Chill bud... There's a reason Shaq said Pippen sucked - the guy could only make the 2nd Round with a 3-peat caliber supporting cast.. :facepalm
And the Bulls would've gone down 3-0 and gotten swept if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series and Pippen's ass with the miracle walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter the game in an epic choke.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
Just imagine if they replaced Mj with someone decent. Team was already a contender without MJ, thats a fact
[/QUOTE]
What good is it to say "[I]kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994[/I]", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place (those were MJ's Finals averages)?.. Kobe's typical 25/5/5 on 45% in the Finals wouldn't have come anywhere NEAR being enough to 3-peat.
So if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with [I][U]MJ's[/U][/I] 3-peat Bulls.
[B]Btw, if people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 4-peated in 1994 FOR SURE and probably 9-peated[/b]. The 4-peat alone cements him as the goat, just like two 3 peats does - he's gonna be the goat for our lifetimes and probably forever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).
.
Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
lebron lost in the ECF to a sick Magic team.
or do you mean when lebron lost to the Celtics with a bunch of hall of famers?
[/QUOTE]
The Orlando magic were underdogs to the cavs - and after they upset the cavs, they got destroyed by the lakers in 5 easy games.. Orlando was a nothing team in the annals of history, which is a far cry from the all-time great teams that beat MJ (celtics, bad boys).
The 2010 celtics were post-Garnett injury and past their prime - everyone saw the Garnett injury and that team get old... Yet they still demoralized lebron and his favored, #1 seed.
Btw, here are mj and lebron's career per-100 stats on the playoffs (it's mj across board):
[i]JORDAN[/i]: 43.3 ppg.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 118 ortg.
[i]LEBRON[/i]: 36.5 ppg.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 114 ortg
.
Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)
[QUOTE=3ball]And WITH Jordan, they were a 3 peat dynasty... How is that comparable to an ordinary 2nd Round team - that's an utterly massive drop-off..
Of course, since basketball players are just numbers-producing robots, you so probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games and made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?
Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.
Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.
Chill bud... There's a reason Shaq said Pippen sucked - the guy could only make the 2nd Round with a 3-peat caliber supporting cast.. :facepalm
And the Bulls would've gone down 3-0 and gotten swept if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series and Pippen's ass with the miracle walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter the game in an epic choke.
What good is it to say "[I]kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994[/I]", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place (those were MJ's Finals averages)?.. Kobe's typical 25/5/5 on 45% in the Finals wouldn't have come anywhere NEAR being enough to 3-peat.
So if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with [I][U]MJ's[/U][/I] 3-peat Bulls.
[B]Btw, if people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 4-peated in 1994 FOR SURE and probably 9-peated[/b]. The 4-peat alone cements him as the goat, just like two 3 peats does - he's gonna be the goat for our lifetimes and probably forever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).
.[/QUOTE]
Again...those quotes were NOT MINE.
Now, please address MY post...
[QUOTE]Some of the Jordan "Myths"...
He single-handedly shot his team down the drain against the crumbling '87 Celtics, with a .417 FG% sweeping loss series, which included a clinching game three performance of 9-30 from the field.
He quit on his team in a series that was tied 2-2, with a 4-8 performance, which ultimately cost his team the series.
His teammates were so good without him, that they went 55-27 (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games, they likely would have won 60+, and a possible world title.)
He came back the following season, to the same roster that had gone 55-27 without him, sans Grant, and he couldn't lead them any further than Grant and Pippen had the year before. In fact, it is GRANT who pummels his team with an 18-11 .647 series. Unlike POS Bosh, Grant actually had an IMPACT.
Meanwhile, Lebron joins a Cavs team that had gone 17-65 with their "all-star" center, and immediately doubled their win total. Within a couple of years he dragged one of the worst rosters in NBA history to the team's first Finals in their team history.
He would take that same cast of clowns to records of 66-16 and 61-21.
He left that pathetic team, and they immediately fell to 19-63.
He joined a Heat team that had been routed in the first round the year before. He immediately led them to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. In the next three years he would lead them to three more Finals, and two titles, including one in which his "10 time All-Star" PF scored ZERO points in a game seven.
Lebron leaves the Heat, and with a broken down Wade, and the career loser Bosh, who has been a NON-FACTOR his ENTIRE career, they stumble to a 37-45 record, and can't even make the playoffs in a weak conference.
Meanwhile, Lebron takes a 33-49 team to a 53-29 record, and as trip to yet another Finals. And without his two best teammates, and with his best teammate now the Knick reject JR Smith, who put up a 12-4-1 .326 series...he single-handedly led his team to TWO wins, and two close losses, against a 67-15 Warrior team that blew away the NBA.[/QUOTE]
or...
[QUOTE]They went from a a losing team, to a winning team when they added Pippen and Grant. And MJ couldn't get his team over the hump against the Bad Boys until those two dominated Detroit in the '91 ECF's.
Pippen and Grant were so good, that they went 55-27 withOUT Jordan, and came within an eyelash of getting to the ECF's. Hell, if those two hadn't missed a combined 22 games in that '94 season, they easily win 60+, and with HCA throughout the playoffs, they likely win yet another title.
And how valuable was Pippen? With BOTH MJ and Grant gone in the '95 season, he carried the Bulls to a 34-31 record.
And how valuable was Grant? He left the Bulls for the Magic, and immediately improved them from a 50-32 team to a 57-25 team (and then a 60-22 team.) Not only that, but he was a key player in beating MJ's '95 Bulls in the ECSF's.
In fact, those two were so valuable, that when Jordan came back late in the '95 season, that he couldn't overcome Grant's loss, and his team was asily beaten by the Magic in the ECSF's (and in a series in which Grant hung an 18-11 .647 series)...the same Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.
It wasn't until the Bulls ADDED HOFer Rodman to that roster that could win 55 games without MJ, but now with Jordan, that they would go on to their second three-peat.
BTW, Pippen and Grant were winners AFTER Jordan. In fact, Grant would win a ring later on[/QUOTE]
The reality was...MJ had STACKED rosters that could challenge for titles withOUT him.
Lebron had pure shit rosters that were losers before and after him, and title contenders, and even champions, with him. And even in Miami, they went 47-18 in the games in which Wade missed in their four years together. He left that team, and without him...POS. And before someone mentions Love and Kyrie...without LBJ this past year... 3-10. WITH James... 50-19. Hell, he could lose BOTH of those guys and damn near beat the 67-15 Warriors by himself.
Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
The reality was...MJ had STACKED rosters that could challenge for titles withOUT him.
[/quote]
The bulls were 2nd round without mj, which is nowhere near contention.. Also, compared to his peers, MJ had the least help - HOF Pippen is less help than:
HOF's Kareem/Worthy
HOF's McHale/Parish/DJ
HOF's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi
HOF's Wade/Bosh/Allen
MJ 3-peated with only 1 HOF - obviously, horace grant doesn't belong in the above group.
[quote=LAZERUSS]
Lebron had pure shit rosters that were losers before and after him, and title contenders, and even champions, with him.
[/QUOTE]
In 2011, the cavs didn't just lose lebron - they lost mo Williams, shaq, delonte, zydrunas, and varejao... We've been over these facts a million times, yet you insist on repeating the same lie that the cavs collapsed without lebron - that's factually incorrect - the cavs collapsed without lebron, shaq, mo Williams, zydrunas, delonte, and varejao.
Also you fools give lebron props for horrible situations he creates - when "the decision" happened, that ****ed up the team because everyone else left with him and the team was soon gutted... In Miami, Lebron waited until the primes of wade and bosh were used up before bolting.. In both cases injuries decimated the teams as well.. Honestly, only someone that was literally dumb would turn a blind eye to these facts and believe something different.
[quote=LAZERUSS]
he could lose BOTH kyrie and love and damn near beat the 67-15 Warriors by himself.
[/quote]
The Warriors won by a comfortable margin.. Overall, the 2015 playoffs revealed that lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume.. However, the stats already showed this - the NBA's player-tracking stats show that lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. Obviously, since he can't shoot a good percentage at high volume, we know he can't win a [i]championship[/i] while undertaking high volume.
[quote=lazeruss]
And even in Miami
[/quote]
Wade and bosh's stats were much lower and chemistry was always an issue - Wade and lebron's ON-OFF stats were well-publicized and showed the heat were better when they were not on the floor together.. They still went 2/4 due to talent, but the times they lost, their chemistry and [i]brand of basketball[/i] was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs).. The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are [i]capable of[/i].
Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga in 2014 Finals on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency, or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency.
Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)
[QUOTE=3ball]The bulls were 2nd round without mj, which is nowhere near contention.. Also, compared to his peers, MJ had the least help - HOF Pippen is less help than:
HOF's Kareem/Worthy
HOF's McHale/Parish/DJ
HOF's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi
HOF's Wade/Bosh/Allen
MJ 3-peated with only 1 HOF - obviously, horace grant doesn't belong in the above group.
In 2011, the cavs didn't just lose lebron - they lost mo Williams, shaq, delonte, zydrunas, and varejao... We've been over these facts a million times, yet you insist on repeating the same lie that the cavs collapsed without lebron - that's factually incorrect - the cavs collapsed without lebron, shaq, mo Williams, zydrunas, delonte, and varejao.
Also you fools give lebron props for horrible situations he creates - when "the decision" happened, that ****ed up the team because everyone else left with him and the team was soon gutted... In Miami, Lebron waited until the primes of wade and bosh were used up before bolting.. In both cases injuries decimated the teams as well.. Honestly, only someone that was literally dumb would turn a blind eye to these facts and believe something different.
The Warriors won by a comfortable margin.. Overall, the 2015 playoffs revealed that lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume.. However, the stats already showed this - the NBA's player-tracking stats show that lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. Obviously, since he can't shoot a good percentage at high volume, we know he can't win a [i]championship[/i] while undertaking high volume.
Wade and bosh's stats were much lower and chemistry was always an issue - Wade and lebron's ON-OFF stats were well-publicized and showed the heat were better when they were not on the floor together.. They still went 2/4 due to talent, but the times they lost, their chemistry and [i]brand of basketball[/i] was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs).. The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are [i]capable of[/i].
Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga in 2014 Finals on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency, or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll:
FACTS are FACTS my friend.
Lebron made EVERY team he joined a WINNER, and EVERY team he left, a LOSER.
Jordan QUIT, and was replaced by the great Pete Myers, and the Bulls went 55-27 (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 combined games...they romp to 60+, and with HCA, likely a title.)
Oh, and Pippen/Grant >>> than Wade/Bosh
and Pippen/Rodman >>> Wade/Bosh
We saw their IMPACT. Without MJ... 55-27, and then winning seasons, and even a title, after him.
Without Lebron. Wade and Bosh...losers who couldn't make the playoffs in the Eastern Conference.
FACTS.
Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)
[QUOTE=3ball]The Orlando magic were underdogs to the cavs - and after they upset the cavs, they got destroyed by the lakers in 5 easy games.. Orlando was a nothing team in the annals of history, which is a far cry from the all-time great teams that beat MJ (celtics, bad boys).
The 2010 celtics were post-Garnett injury and past their prime - everyone saw the Garnett injury and that team get old... Yet they still demoralized lebron and his favored, #1 seed.
Btw, here are mj and lebron's career per-100 stats on the playoffs (it's mj across board):
[i]JORDAN[/i]: 43.3 ppg.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 118 ortg.
[i]LEBRON[/i]: 36.5 ppg.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 114 ortg
.[/QUOTE]
Do you understand what "across the board" means?
Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)
-
[SIZE="4"][B][U]Comparing Jordan's Dunking Data to Contemporaries[/U][/B]
[/SIZE]
[size="2"][COLOR="Blue"][B][I]We've found 80's and 90's dunk stats from the old Philadelphia 76'er Media Guides (links at bottom of post)[/I][/B] - they show that for the 6 seasons between 1988 and 1993, Jordan had 746 dunks, or an average of about 130 dunks per season.. His high was 158 (1988), and his low was 95 (1993).
By comparison, from 2002-2009 (Kobe's athletic prime and highest volume period), [B]Kobe averaged 65 dunks per season, or half of Jordan's totals[/B]... Tracy McGrady averaged 75 dunks from 2001 to 2005 (his athletic prime and highest volume period)... Vince Carter in his prime, Paul George and Westbrook only get about 50 dunks per season.
Infact, Jordan's dunk totals dwarf every single wing player from this era except Wade, Lebron, and Durant... These are the only players that routinely amass over 100 dunks per year, although none of them have as many dunks over a 6-year period as Jordan - the high for any of these three players is 144, by Lebron this year.... Jordan has a season of 153 dunks and another with 158 dunks, and we don't have data for his biggest dunking year - 1987 when he averaged 37.1ppg on 27 shot attempts (still had 59%TS).
Before anyone says it was easier to dunk in MJ's era - this is statistically false - dunk frequency (shots attempts per dunk) has fluctuated over the years from 1 dunk every 28 shots in 1988 (harder to dunk), to 1 dunk in 20 shots in 1998 (easier to dunk), back down to 1 dunk in 26 shots in 2000 (harder to dunk), back to 1 dunk in 21 shots in 2013 (easier to dunk):[/COLOR]
.
[B]Year[/B]..... [B]Shots[/B]..... [B]Dunks[/B]....[B]Shots Per Dunk[/B]
1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89 <------ harder to dunk
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34 <------ easier to dunk
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19 <------ harder to dunk
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61 <------ easier to dunk
[/size]
[SIZE="4"][B]SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks[/B]
[/SIZE]
[U]1988 - 1996[/U][COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][U]2001 - 2014[/U]
Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Richard Dumas ................. Andre Iguodala
Ron Harper....................... Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris
[B][U]Looking at the Dunking Environment Across Eras[/U][/B]
Of course, different eras use different rules and styles of play which affect how easy it is to get a dunk - this will sound crazy, but [I]Lebron dunked over defenders in a chest-to-chest scenario (posters) only 3 times the entire 2014 season - every other time the spacing and defensive 3 seconds prevented defenders from getting to the spot in time[/I]... and most of Lebron's dunks were completely wide open, not even a reach-in or fly-by - the 3-point shooting and floor-spacing creates too much ground and extra space for the defense to cover....
confirm for yourself... here are every single one of Lebron's dunks for the 2014 season - [I]only 3 posters[/I]: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJNe550OrZM[/url]
After you've watched Lebron's dunks, compare that to Jordan's dunks in 1987... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH7_BW9hCI&t=2m36s[/url]
RIGHT AWAY you can tell that there's a massive difference - there is no spacing and less room between defenders because the defense is packed-in since they only had to defend 2-pointers.... and shot-blocking big men are camped in the paint awaiting penetrators (rather than today's game where helping on penetration involves scrambling from the three-point line to the paint and then making sure you aren't in there for more than 3 seconds).
The lack of spacing meant Jordan had to frequently dunk over and through guys if he wanted to dunk - so much so, that even with the limited footage available from back then, it is easy to find literally hundreds of Jordan chest-to-chest posters over defenders - defenders simply weren't LATE as much as today's spread-out defenders, so Jordan was forced to posterize more guys... meanwhile, Lebron benefits from more spread-out defenders that can usually only reach in or fly-by at best, rather than be waiting there ready to fully contest.
Also, here's the very best MJ dunk compilation on youtube by mdestinier (live-calls start at 5:42):
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=0m23s[/url]
And here's another excellent dunk compilation (done by balthus23): [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysMFyE4heVo&t=1m45s[/url]
[SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="Red"]SOURCES:[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
[B][U]Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons[/U][/B] (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)
1988... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U[/url]
1989... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U[/url]
1990... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U[/url]
1991... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V[/url]
1992... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck[/url]
1993... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U[/url]
1995... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=316rspc&s=8#.VI_53SvF_Ck[/url]
1996... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=j82vl1&s=8#.VI_5qyvF_Ck[/url]
- Dunk data from 1997-2000 taken from stats.nba.com
- Dunk data from 2001-present is from cumulative play-by-play data of basketball-reference.com
- Shot attempt data for all years taken from basketball-reference.com
- Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guide was used to get cumulative dunks from 87'-05 (page 10)...
[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][url]http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/05-06SIX_p1-50.pdf[/url]
.
Re: All MJ myths busted (for reference)
[QUOTE=3ball]-
[SIZE="4"][B][U]Comparing Jordan's Dunking Data to Contemporaries[/U][/B]
[/SIZE]
[size="2"][COLOR="Blue"][B][I]We've found 80's and 90's dunk stats from the old Philadelphia 76'er Media Guides (links at bottom of post)[/I][/B] - they show that for the 6 seasons between 1988 and 1993, Jordan had 746 dunks, or an average of about 130 dunks per season.. His high was 158 (1988), and his low was 95 (1993).
By comparison, from 2002-2009 (Kobe's athletic prime and highest volume period), [B]Kobe averaged 65 dunks per season, or half of Jordan's totals[/B]... Tracy McGrady averaged 75 dunks from 2001 to 2005 (his athletic prime and highest volume period)... Vince Carter in his prime, Paul George and Westbrook only get about 50 dunks per season.
Infact, Jordan's dunk totals dwarf every single wing player from this era except Wade, Lebron, and Durant... These are the only players that routinely amass over 100 dunks per year, although none of them have as many dunks over a 6-year period as Jordan - the high for any of these three players is 144, by Lebron this year.... Jordan has a season of 153 dunks and another with 158 dunks, and we don't have data for his biggest dunking year - 1987 when he averaged 37.1ppg on 27 shot attempts (still had 59%TS).
Before anyone says it was easier to dunk in MJ's era - this is statistically false - dunk frequency (shots attempts per dunk) has fluctuated over the years from 1 dunk every 28 shots in 1988 (harder to dunk), to 1 dunk in 20 shots in 1998 (easier to dunk), back down to 1 dunk in 26 shots in 2000 (harder to dunk), back to 1 dunk in 21 shots in 2013 (easier to dunk):[/COLOR]
.
[B]Year[/B]..... [B]Shots[/B]..... [B]Dunks[/B]....[B]Shots Per Dunk[/B]
1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89 <------ harder to dunk
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34 <------ easier to dunk
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19 <------ harder to dunk
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61 <------ easier to dunk
[/size]
[SIZE="4"][B]SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks[/B]
[/SIZE]
[U]1988 - 1996[/U][COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][U]2001 - 2014[/U]
Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Richard Dumas ................. Andre Iguodala
Ron Harper....................... Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris
[B][U]Looking at the Dunking Environment Across Eras[/U][/B]
Of course, different eras use different rules and styles of play which affect how easy it is to get a dunk - this will sound crazy, but [I]Lebron dunked over defenders in a chest-to-chest scenario (posters) only 3 times the entire 2014 season - every other time the spacing and defensive 3 seconds prevented defenders from getting to the spot in time[/I]... and most of Lebron's dunks were completely wide open, not even a reach-in or fly-by - the 3-point shooting and floor-spacing creates too much ground and extra space for the defense to cover....
confirm for yourself... here are every single one of Lebron's dunks for the 2014 season - [I]only 3 posters[/I]: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJNe550OrZM[/url]
After you've watched Lebron's dunks, compare that to Jordan's dunks in 1987... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH7_BW9hCI&t=2m36s[/url]
RIGHT AWAY you can tell that there's a massive difference - there is no spacing and less room between defenders because the defense is packed-in since they only had to defend 2-pointers.... and shot-blocking big men are camped in the paint awaiting penetrators (rather than today's game where helping on penetration involves scrambling from the three-point line to the paint and then making sure you aren't in there for more than 3 seconds).
The lack of spacing meant Jordan had to frequently dunk over and through guys if he wanted to dunk - so much so, that even with the limited footage available from back then, it is easy to find literally hundreds of Jordan chest-to-chest posters over defenders - defenders simply weren't LATE as much as today's spread-out defenders, so Jordan was forced to posterize more guys... meanwhile, Lebron benefits from more spread-out defenders that can usually only reach in or fly-by at best, rather than be waiting there ready to fully contest.
Also, here's the very best MJ dunk compilation on youtube by mdestinier (live-calls start at 5:42):
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=0m23s[/url]
And here's another excellent dunk compilation (done by balthus23): [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysMFyE4heVo&t=1m45s[/url]
[SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="Red"]SOURCES:[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
[B][U]Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons[/U][/B] (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)
1988... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U[/url]
1989... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U[/url]
1990... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U[/url]
1991... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V[/url]
1992... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck[/url]
1993... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U[/url]
1995... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=316rspc&s=8#.VI_53SvF_Ck[/url]
1996... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=j82vl1&s=8#.VI_5qyvF_Ck[/url]
- Dunk data from 1997-2000 taken from stats.nba.com
- Dunk data from 2001-present is from cumulative play-by-play data of basketball-reference.com
- Shot attempt data for all years taken from basketball-reference.com
- Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guide was used to get cumulative dunks from 87'-05 (page 10)...
[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][url]http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/05-06SIX_p1-50.pdf[/url]
.[/QUOTE]
Players from that era dunked more often....but it was harder?
[IMG]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me0co3aume1qf1jfgo1_500.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.chartattack.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/29-Camron-NP.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/QGtxTtr.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/8H7sr7o.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdnl.complex.com/assets/images/lists/hip-hop-gifs/44-Dame-Sigh.gif[/IMG]
