Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist

[QUOTE=kshutts1]I'm very interested in the bolded. So if Lebron plays PG, yet also plays in the front court... does that mean there are only four players on the court for his teams?
Or do you really mean....
When Lebron is playing PG, there is someone else playing his "front court" position, and when Lebron is being the front-court player you believe him to be, there is someone else playing the PG?

Because I watch a lot more basketball than you do; we all do, actually. And that second statement rings more true.

What this "possessions per assist" shows, IMO, is that Lebron plays in a less-creative offense than Jordan did. And that Lebron is asked to make plays for his teammates more than Jordan was. And that Lebron is asked to score one-on-one more often than Jordan was. And you know what? Lebron's pretty awesome at that.
He's one of the best players, ever, at creating for others, and one of the best players, ever, at scoring on his own.
Please don't spout recent Finals/playoffs FG%, because I'll take the significantly larger sample size of his ENTIRE CAREER as opposed to the last POs. And that sample size says that Lebron James averages 27ppg on 50% for his career.
And considering that he's tasked with more on the offensive end, on average, than Jordan was, that's pretty darn impressive. Maybe not as effective, but I'd be the second person to say that Lebron is not as good as Jordan (you'd be the first; no one can beat you to that punch).[/QUOTE]
Lebron is asked? You're off on that; he demands it, as it is the only way he knows how to play, his MO, and is in fact, the only way he's ever played basketball, from high school to the the NBA.

If he isn't 'asked' to play that way he gets completely lost and/or throws a strop and bails on his team, as in 2011.

[QUOTE=Dresta]Lebron is asked? You're off on that; he demands it, as it is the only way he knows how to play, his MO, and is in fact, the only way he's ever played basketball, from high school to the the NBA.

If he isn't 'asked' to play that way he gets completely lost and/or throws a strop and bails on his team, as in 2011.[/QUOTE]

So many lies and assumptions made in this post :lol

[QUOTE=kshutts1]

So if Lebron plays PG, yet also plays in the front court... does that mean there are only four players on the court for his teams?

[/quote]
No, Lebron starts at SF, but then proceeds to play PG, along with Kyrie.. They both dominate the ball at point guard-levels, which results in low-assisted rates for both players, just like all PG's... Otoh, other teams only have 1 guy with PG-level ball-domination and low-assisted rate.


[QUOTE=kshutts]

What this "possessions per assist" shows, IMO, is that Lebron plays in a less-creative offense than Jordan did.

[/QUOTE]
The lesser creative offenses of Lebron's teams are Lebron's fault, because he's a ball-dominant frontcourt player, which lowers the assist capacity of his teams compared to other teams.


[QUOTE]

And that Lebron is asked to score one-on-one more often than Jordan was. And you know what?

[/QUOTE]
MJ went more 1-on-1 more and also 1-on-2 and 1-on-3 (because he got double-teamed incessantly).


[QUOTE=kshutts]

Lebron's pretty awesome at that.

[/QUOTE]
Lebron is "pretty awesome" at 1-on-1??.. You mean compared to you and me or for an NBA player?...The [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378398]eye test[/url] and stats prove quite clearly that Lebron nowhere NEAR elite at 1-on-1:


[B][u]2015 Isolation Stats[/u][/B]

LEBRON RS: 40% fg (107th out of 315)... 0.93 PPP (80th out of 315)

[url]http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&sort=FG&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season[/url]


LEBRON PO: 33% fg.. (34th out of 44)... 0.70 PPP (36th out of 44)

[url]http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&sort=FG&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs[/url]



[QUOTE=kshutts]

And considering that [B]Lebron is tasked with more on the offensive end[/B], on average

[/QUOTE]
^^^^ This is factually false, and quite ridiculous:


[SIZE="3"][U]Playoffs Thru Age 30:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]Jordan[/B]: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, [B]6.6 APG[/B], 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BLK, 25.4 FGA, 50.1 FG%, 29.6 PER
[B]Lebron[/B]: 28.2 PPG, 8.8 RPG, [B]6.7 APG[/B], 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BLK, 20.8 FGA, 47.3 FG%, 27.4 PER


[SIZE="3"][U]Finals Thru Age 30:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]Jordan[/B]: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, [B]7.9 APG[/B], 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT
[B]Lebron[/B]: 26.4 PPG, 9.6 RPG, [B]6.9 APG[/B], 1.8 SPG, 0.54 BPG, 44.6 FG%, 31.9% 3 PT
.

ITT I learned that Lebron James holds much more sway and influence than any player ever has in the history of all sports. He, and he alone, dictates what offense his team runs or doesn't run.

[QUOTE=kshutts1]I must have missed it. Can you please post the "possessions per assist" for every team in the league, for all of the years listed in the OP? I'd like to see how Jordan and Lebron stack up league-wide, rather than be told that Jordan is great and Lebron is bad.[/QUOTE]
Please answer this.

[QUOTE=3ball]Sure, let's look at each guy individually - Wade, Bosh, Love - alongside Lebron, their assisted percentage was up (more play-finishing), but their own assist percentage was WAY down (less playmaking).. Lebron's ball-dominance turned them from playmakers into play-finishers, which doesn't promote an optimal brand of basketball (equal-opportunity).[/QUOTE]
So equal opportunity now means everyone gets to be a playmaker instead of the everyone gets scoring opportunities as it has been for decades? Nice.

[QUOTE]Since Lebron's teams don't play the best brand of basketball, opponents of equal or lesser talent have the opportunity to pull the upset by playing a superior brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Otoh, upsets never happened to MJ, because his style allowed his teams to play an optimal brand of basketball - [i]opponents could never upset the Bulls by offsetting a talent disadvantage with a better brand of basketball[/i].. That's why MJ went 6/6 and never underachieved, while Lebron is 2/6 with several upsets/underachievements on his record.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Michael jordan]
“He can’t do anything with the ball. Don’t give it to him.” – Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Perdue

“Give me the fu*king ball.” – Michael to Doug Collins who drew up a play for Dave Corzine

“If you [pass the ball to Bill Cartwright], you’ll never get the ball from me.”

“I’m sure everything will be fine if we win, but if we start losing, I’m shooting.”

“Look, M.J.,” Jackson said, “we’re going to stick with the system this season.” Jordan wasn’t thrilled. “I know I can recognize what to do,” Jordan said, “but I’m not sure they can.”
“Teams just don’t win with one man doing all the scoring,” Jackson said, “because when you need to you can shut down one individual, and Detroit has done that to us.” “But that’s when they’re supposed to score,” said Jordan. It didn’t work that way, Jackson said. Jordan’s teammates had to be worked into a system so they were prepared for those opportunities. They just couldn’t shoot in times of desperation, with a few seconds left on the shot clock. When they were open, they had to get the ball, not afterward.
[/QUOTE]

Sounds really optimal.....:rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Oh, he's unique alright - his ball-dominance turns a high-assisted position into a low-assisted one, thus lowering the assist capacity of his team.. That's super-unique... That's what happens when a player plays point guard (a low-assisted position) [I]from the frontcourt[/I] (normally high-assisted positions).[/QUOTE]
His position by default becoming a low assisted one but at the same time boosting everyone's assisted percentage is a fine trade off. I've never liked the way he's had to do so much for his team's but it's been effective, so shut up.

[QUOTE]I didn't make up the stat.. Team possessions per game/team assists per game has always existed and been available, regardless of whether the mainstream media ever uses it - this shows how [I]in-the-box[/I] of a thinker you are... For you, it's only a legit stat if you've seen it on espn.. The stat couldn't be simpler, but it's "fake" to you because you never saw it in mainstream media before.

That's a suboptimal way to think about the game, which means you'll continue to be routinely surprised by things that happen on the court (i.e. "wow, i didn't think so-and-so would be that good"... or, "wow, that team really surprised me", etc, etc.)[/QUOTE]
By made up I mean you slapped together a metric to suit your needs, ignoring all else that could make the argument more valuable. You didn't do any detail work as i stated, you didn't even do comparisons to the league for those years like the other post stated. Also with your track record of posting fake numbers, everything you put here has to be taken with a grain of salt. As far what stats I respect you couldn't be more far off, I was happen to enjoy going through advanced stats and connecting the dots to what I see with my eyes. Meanwhile I was on boards discussing them, you were trolling those same boards saying "I'm not a stat guy and asking questions" So again stfu. You're doing amateur research and presenting it as if you're a scholar. Don't half ass it.

[QUOTE=3ball]
MJ went more 1-on-1 more and also 1-on-2 and 1-on-3 (because he got double-teamed incessantly).

Lebron is "pretty awesome" at 1-on-1??.. You mean compared to you and me or for an NBA player?...The [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378398]eye test[/url] and stats prove quite clearly that Lebron nowhere NEAR elite at 1-on-1:

[SIZE="3"][U]Playoffs Thru Age 30:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]Jordan[/B]: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, [B]6.6 APG[/B], 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BLK, 25.4 FGA, 50.1 FG%, 29.6 PER
[B]Lebron[/B]: 28.2 PPG, 8.8 RPG, [B]6.7 APG[/B], 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BLK, 20.8 FGA, 47.3 FG%, 27.4 PER


[SIZE="3"][U]Finals Thru Age 30:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]Jordan[/B]: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, [B]7.9 APG[/B], 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT
[B]Lebron[/B]: 26.4 PPG, 9.6 RPG, [B]6.9 APG[/B], 1.8 SPG, 0.54 BPG, 44.6 FG%, 31.9% 3 PT
.[/QUOTE]
Edited for size/content.

First, the numbers are misleading. Jordan, apparently, got most of his points off of assists. Which means he did less. Which made those scoring opportunities easier. He was also in an offense that you admitted was better than Lebron's. So Jordan's similar assist numbers mean little.

What I really see is two players.
One, Jordan, plays in an offense that we both agree was better.
One player, Jordan, gets more of his baskets from assists than the other.

So are we really surprised that the other player, Lebron, that has a harder time with everything and is asked to do more of everything... has slightly worse stats/efficiency?

Secondly, Jordan was an "elite off-ball player" and played off-ball quite a bit, apparently. How did he find time to both play off-ball enough to be considered elite, and also go one on one/two/three more often than Lebron James? Please keep in mind that you contend Lebron is a ball-dominant player.

So, to recap, you're an idiot.

[QUOTE=kshutts1]Please answer this.[/QUOTE]
He won't. Doesn't suit the agenda.

[QUOTE=kshutts1]

*Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist

Quote:

Originally Posted by*3ball

MJ went more 1-on-1 more and also 1-on-2 and 1-on-3 (because he got double-teamed incessantly).

Lebron is "pretty awesome" at 1-on-1??.. You mean compared to you and me or for an NBA player?...The*eye test*and stats prove quite clearly that Lebron nowhere NEAR elite at 1-on-1:

Playoffs Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG,*6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BLK, 25.4 FGA, 50.1 FG%, 29.6 PER
Lebron: 28.2 PPG, 8.8 RPG,*6.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BLK, 20.8 FGA, 47.3 FG%, 27.4 PER


Finals Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG,*7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT
Lebron: 26.4 PPG, 9.6 RPG,*6.9 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.54 BPG, 44.6 FG%, 31.9% 3 PT
.

Edited for size/content.

First, the numbers are misleading. Jordan, apparently, got most of his points off of assists. Which means he did less. Which made those scoring opportunities easier. He was also in an offense that you admitted was better than Lebron's. So Jordan's similar assist numbers mean little.

What I really see is two players.*
One, Jordan, plays in an offense that we both agree was better.*
One player, Jordan, gets more of his baskets from assists than the other.

So are we really surprised that the other player, Lebron, that has a harder time with everything and is asked to do more of everything... has slightly worse stats/efficiency?

Secondly, Jordan was an "elite off-ball player" and played off-ball quite a bit, apparently. How did he find time to both play off-ball enough to be considered elite, and also go one on one/two/three more often than Lebron James? Please keep in mind that you contend Lebron is a ball-dominant player.

So, to recap, you're an idiot

[/QUOTE]
Murder.

sdot - i wouldn't read too much sam smith - he was the original jordan hater.. rather than reading books, you'd be better off learning more about the game by playing or talking to other people who know a lot.. then you'd understand the game better and wouldn't need to quote long passages from biographies.

[QUOTE=3ball]sdot - i wouldn't read too much sam smith - he was the original jordan hater.. rather than reading books, you'd be better off learning more about the game by playing or talking to other people who know a lot.. then you'd understand the game better and wouldn't need to quote long passages from biographies.[/QUOTE]
:roll: He was closer to those teams than you'll ever be 3ball, I'll take his lesser biased word over you fanatic passages anyday. Reading books and articles from the exact time they happened help 1000

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]So many lies and assumptions made in this post :lol[/QUOTE]
Not really. Just a couple of simple deductions based on 10+ years of watching the man play basketball. Nothing personal about it: the guy has just time and time again shown himself remarkably unadaptable on the basketball court - everyone else fits around the only way he knows to play basketball, which isn't all that surprising considering his history, and how his ego will have been continually fed, and all teammates (and even NBA organisations) subordinated to himself, from the age of 14 or so.

[QUOTE=Dresta]Not really. Just a couple of simple deductions based on 10+ years of watching the man play basketball. Nothing personal about it: the guy has just time and time again shown himself remarkably unadaptable on the basketball court - everyone else fits around the only way he knows to play basketball, which isn't all that surprising considering his history, and how his ego will have been continually fed, and all teammates subordinated to himself, from the age of 14 or so.[/QUOTE]
Have you considered that Lebron's teams generally play this style because they want to showcase his historical talent?

Not saying it's the best style to play, but I'm not sure Lebron is "unadaptable", but rather that everyone wants to adapt to him because of his relative greatness.