MJ is the most double-teamed player of all time, besides Wilt

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

[B]You haven't provided much evidence for this other then one video[/B]

[/QUOTE]
I provided two other videos - you must have missed them earlier itt.

Here's a video of him against Atlanta - he's double-teamed 12 of 13 possessions from the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark - the double-teams are shown in rapid succession:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s[/url]


Here's another video of him against Indiana:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70[/url]


[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

[B][SIZE="3"]I definitely remember[/SIZE][/B] many games where Shaq was doubled literally everytime he got the ball and occasionally off the ball.

[/quote]
Why is everyone relying on their memory from 15 years ago??.. Unless you have photogenic memory, it's impossible to remember every single possession for 15 years ago - and that's what I'm talking about - [I]every... single.... possession[/I].. nothing less than that.

Shaq was never doubled every single possession for extended stretches like MJ was.. Unless you can SHOW me where he was, it's sheer dumbness for anyone to rely on your memory from 15 years ago.. I won't rely on your memory, and no one else should either.


[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]


Shaq's 00 & 02 squads were pretty weak honestly.

[size="3"][B][COLOR="Red"]Just Kobe[/COLOR][/B][/size] and a couple of ok roleplayers.


[/QUOTE]
Just a top 10 all-time player that people said for a while was as good as MJ and possibly the GOAT...

You can't do any better than having a top 10 all-time player as your #2.


[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

Jordan also had Grant while Shaq never had a special 3rd guy like that.

[/QUOTE]
Grant was nothing more than an ordinary play-finisher who averaged 11/8 during the 1991-1993 championship runs with Jordan in RS and PO and also 11/8 for his entire career.. If you think he was anything more than a play-finisher, then you don't know basketball and/or didn't watch him play... period.. end of story... this is not debateable...

It's like some kid 15 years from now trying to say Tristan Thompson was a special, rare kind of 3rd option.. gtfo


[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

That is actually true but the fact remains that neither side can prove it so we are kind of wasting time here.

[/QUOTE]
I proved it - see the video - I provided 3 videos itt where MJ was doubled every possession for extended stretches - and you've provided zero.

So I've proved my case, and you haven't proven shit - you want us to rely on your memory from 15 years ago... gtfo


[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]


[SIZE="3"][B]per my memories[/B][/SIZE] Shaq was double/triple teamed considerably more often and far more consistently.


[/QUOTE]
[I][COLOR="Blue"]Again, **** your memory - show the video or stfu - you spent more time with your long-ass response than it takes to find video of Shaq being doubled every possession for extended stretch.[/COLOR][/I]


[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

He also had many other years with crap casts that lacked even a single All-Star caliber player.

[/QUOTE]
Massive lie obviously - ruins your credibility Laz - Shaq played with all-stars his entire career.. He played with Penny in Orlando... In 1998, he had 3 other all-stars on his team - Van Exel, Eddie Jones, and Kobe.. During the championship years, he had a top 10 all-time player (Kobe) as his #2 - you can't do better than that.

[QUOTE=3ball]I provided two other videos - you must have missed them earlier itt.[/QUOTE]

Either way you are cherry picking what is in reality .000000000000000000000000001% of MJ's career and presumably didn't use any footage from his contending years.
You haven't proved anything except that if you cherry pick you can "prove" anything you want.
Not to say that MJ didn't get double teamed plenty especially over isolated stretches but the same is true even for a guy like Kobe.

[QUOTE]Why is everyone relying on their memory from 15 years ago??[/QUOTE]

Because without the data there isn't much else to do.
I can look up a game where Shaq was doubled constantly but what would be the point?
That would still be cherry picking and doesn't truly prove anything.

[QUOTE]Shaq was never doubled every single possession for extended stretches like MJ was.[/QUOTE]

Because you say so?
Or because you have the greatest photogenic memory of All-Time and watched all Shaq's playoff games so you can truly say that and be right?

Oh right... you're actually just speaking out of your arse.
I get it.

[QUOTE]I won't rely on your memory, and no one else should either.[/QUOTE]

And I won't waste time agreeing with a shitt* cherry picking argument.
I could easily provide the same cherry picked examples but there'd be no point as I have already explained.

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]>inb4 since I won't waste the time to do it I am obviously wrong and you are right
[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]Just a top 10 all-time player that people said for a while was as good as MJ and possibly the GOAT.[/QUOTE]

We don't judge the value of a supporting star based on how great their careers turned out.

[B]00 Kobe :[/B] 21.1 / 4.5 / 4.4 on 52%TS
[B]92 Pipp :[/B] 19.5 / 8.8 / 6.7 on 54%TS

[B]02 Kobe :[/B] 26.6 / 5.8 / 4.6 on 51%TS [COLOR="Red"](20.5 PER)[/COLOR]
[B]91 Pipp :[/B] 21.6 / 8.9 / 5.8 on 56%TS [COLOR="Red"](22.0 PER)[/COLOR]

This doesn't take into account Pippen's large defensive advantage either.

Kobe's career ranking is bolstered primarily by his late 00 years (06-10).
In 00 & 02 he was not a more productive, efficient or better performing 2nd option then early 90's Pippen was as you can plainly see.

[QUOTE]Grant was nothing more than an ordinary play-finisher who averaged 11/8 during the 1991-1993 championship runs with Jordan in RS and PO and also 11/8 for his entire career.[/QUOTE]

Grant was a great player and a better 3rd wheel then any Shaq had from 00-02.

[QUOTE]If you think he was anything more than a play-finisher.[/QUOTE]
He was much more then that.

[QUOTE]I provided 3 videos itt where MJ was doubled every possession for extended stretches - and you've provided zero.[/QUOTE]

Knowing your delusions he probably wasn't even doubled every possession like you say.
In that GIF you posted in the first page he wasn't even doubled.
I am not quite sure you know what a real double is.

The fact remains that the majority of people believe Shaq was doubled more then MJ.
Neither of us have concrete proof and your 2-3 cherry picked examples (even if they are legit) certainly don't prove anything.
Incredibly small sample.

I atleast have the intelligence to say that since neither of us can prove it right now there is no point in debating it.
You on the other hand will say "look at my 3 minutes of cherry picked game it proves me right!" etc...

[QUOTE]He played with Penny in Orlando.[/QUOTE]

Yes. For 2 years.
Penny was a legit All-Star.

[QUOTE]In 1998, he had 3 other all-stars on his team - Van Exel, Eddie Jones, and Kobe.
[/QUOTE]

Van Exel was a flashy chucker who didn't play defense and didn't care about winning.
He was certainly not a true All-Star caliber player or a guy you could win a title with as your #2.

In the 1998 WCF as the Lakers lost to Utah this is what he averaged.
*
[B]Van Exel :[/B] 9.0-ppg / 4-apg on 36%TS
----
Yup... that is an All-Star alright.
______________________________

Jones was an elite roleplayer who didn't have the skillset needed to maintain his averages in the playoffs.

In the 98 WCF this is what he averaged.
*
[B]Jones :[/B] 15.0-ppg / 3.3-apg on 52%TS
----
Yup... that is All-Star level production right there...
______________________________

Oh and let us not forget the best of the bunch, [B]Kobe[/B], who was a super dominant All-Star in 1998 as you would imply.
Let us see how he did in that same series.

[B]Kobe :[/B] 10.0-ppg / 1-apg on 37% shooting

Wow... another All-Star level performer.
How did Shaq lose?

[COLOR="Red"]You've been ethered.[/COLOR]
Good night.

:yaohappy:

[QUOTE=Vaniiiia]This.

Dude sits there all day watching ONLY Jordan highlights... maybe why his posts are ONLY about Jordan?

He knows nothing outside of Jordan and blatantly makes shit up to prop him. Kinda sad to see a guy use a pro athlete for attention that he's obviously lacking outside the internet...[/QUOTE]


3ball is clearly obsessed with Jordan, but there's no denying he knows him well. Just because he rants a lot, doesn't mean he's a dumb fck.


You and him share a strong similarity. You are both completely crackers.

[QUOTE=Vaniiiia]I don't do the work of peasants like you.

No time to dig up video footage of shit I watched with my own two eyes and have a clear memory of... I don't need to prove anything, it's already out there.

Go find it yourself. I mean, what else do you have to do? You've literally been on here all day copy/pasting the same material.

I know you don't actually watch the NBA, which means you don't remember anything that happened in 2013, so it might actually be a learning experience for you to go dig up some footage that has nothing to do with the guy that got his father killed. You need to branch out.[/QUOTE]


LOL.


Simon is getting the treatment from 3ball

:roll: :roll:

MJ is the most double teamed player of all time. [i]Especially when you account for double teams plus distance from the basket[/i]. Yeah, Shaq was doubled a lot, when he was in the restricted zone. No two double teams are equal, drawing a double team away from the hoop is more valuable than drawing a double team close to the hoop.

Therefore we can say that MJ attracted MORE defensive attention than Shaq. We can also say that Steph Curry attracted MORE defensive attention than Shaq.

Pulling defense INTO the hoop is way less productful than pulling defense AWAY from the hoop. Which what Michael Jordan and Steph Curry did.

Therefore we can say that Michael Jordan and Steph Curry drew FAR more attention away from the basket than Shaq or any other player in the history of the game. Thus boosting offenses in ways that were never seen before Jordan or Curry.

[QUOTE=warriorfan]MJ is the most double teamed player of all time.
[/QUOTE]

I don't think that is true.
Shaq was doubled more and it was pretty much a commonly accepted fact (one that was repeated on air many times) that single covering Prime Shaq was suicide for opposing defenses.
Just wasn't done most of the time because he was almost automatic in those situations against most defenders.
Even an older Shaq consistently drew double teams because he was so hard to stop with single coverage.

[QUOTE]No two double teams are equal, drawing a double team away from the hoop is more valuable than drawing a double team close to the hoop.[/QUOTE]

Why is that?
A double team is a double team and teams don't double on the perimeter using their C's.

Also even a guy like Jordan wasn't doubled on the perimeter very often.
Was only closer to the basket (mid-range area) or once he made a move towards the basket that the doubles or extra attention came.

Curry is doubled/trapped out on the 3pt line 100x more often then Jordan ever was.
But he is a very unique shooter so there is a reason for it.

I also think collapsing a defense into the paint has its own advantages.

[QUOTE]Pulling defense INTO the hoop is way less productful than pulling defense AWAY from the hoop. [/QUOTE]

Haven't really explained why and if you have a cast of good shooters I would think collapsing guys into the paint would help them out more.
Maybe if you had slashers it would benefit more? but again teams aren't gonna double on the perimeter using their rim protectors so that argument doesn't seem to work.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]I don't think that is true.
Shaq was doubled more and it was pretty much a commonly accepted fact (one that was repeated on air many times) that single covering Prime Shaq was suicide for opposing defenses.
Just wasn't done most of the time because he was almost automatic in those situations against most defenders.
Even an older Shaq consistently drew double teams because he was so hard to stop with single coverage.[/quote]

Even if he was doubled more than MJ, which he was not, what good do you bring your team if you attract the defense [b]INTO[/b] the hoop, rather than away from it?

The best shot in basketball is a layup or dunk, anyone who knows ball knows this.

So would you rather have your teammate, A) Draw the defense away from the hoop, or B) Draw your defense towards the hoop.

You want your teammates to draw defenders away from the hoop, giving you a better opportunity at the best shot in basketball. This is basketball 101 here.

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Even if he was doubled more than MJ, which he was not, what good do you bring your team if you attract the defense [b]INTO[/b] the hoop, rather than away from it?

The best shot in basketball is a layup or dunk, anyone who knows ball knows this.

So would you rather have your teammate, A) Draw the defense away from the hoop, or B) Draw your defense towards the hoop.

You want your teammates to draw defenders away from the hoop, giving you a better opportunity at the best shot in basketball. This is basketball 101 here.[/QUOTE]

Yes but perimiter guys aren't drawing out C's or rim-protectors so it doesn't make a difference.
Shaq dragging rim-protectors 5-8+ feet away from the hoop with another 1-2 perimiter guys not only opens up outside shooters for jumpers but also clears the perimiter, clears the lanes and makes it easier for slashers to get by their man, build up steam and finish at the basket either unimpeded or over a recovering bigman who probably will have a hard time stopping the now full steam perimiter guy without fouling him.

Wade himself said Shaq made it easier for him to slash and do his thing and had some of his best playoff series playing with/off of him.

Oh and as I already mentioned most of the double teams Jordan drew were in the mid-range area or right around the basket so it really isn't that much different then where Shaq was doing it.

Curry is the only one out of the three who was regularly getting trapped or doubled near the 3pt line.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]Yes but perimiter guys aren't drawing out C's or rim-protectors so it doesn't make a difference.
Shaq dragging rim-protectors 5-8+ feet away from the hoop with another 1-2 perimiter guys not only opens up outside shooters for jumpers but also clears the perimiter, clears the lanes and makes it easier for slashers to get by their man, build up steam and finish at the basket either unimpeded or over a recovering bigman who probably will have a hard time stopping the now full steam perimiter guy without fouling him.

Wade himself said Shaq made it easier for him to slash and do his thing and had some of his best playoff series playing with/off of him.[/QUOTE]

Drawing a 7 foot guy 5 feet away from the hoop? So that means he can close in for a shot block with literally one step. That isn't doing much at all.

A true basketball mind would much rather have defenders away from the hoop. The Bigman is going to have to rotate onto the guard or let him take a free shot. If the Bigman shows on the perimeter than he will get toasted from a pass to the cutter. [i]The objective of the offense is to draw the defense as far from the easiest shots as possible[/i]. The way you do this is through outside spacing and drawing double teams on the perimeter, not jampacking the paint. Creating clusterfuccs in the paint is counter-productive to creating easy opportunities for scoring. This is why LeBron-Ball fails at a high level. Instead of drawing attraction to the perimeter, LeBron can only attract defensive attention by collapsing in the paint...thus not giving as efficient looks as drawing double teams from the perimeter.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]Oh and as I already mentioned most of the double teams Jordan drew were in the mid-range area or right around the basket so it really isn't that much different then where Shaq was doing it.

Curry is the only one out of the three who was regularly getting trapped or doubled near the 3pt line.[/QUOTE]

I doubt anyone honestly thinks Jordan was double teamed more than Shaq.

[quote=ShaqTwizzle]


[COLOR="Red"][B]I won't waste the time to find Shaq being doubled every possession
[/B][/COLOR]

[/quote]
Waste time??... It takes more time to type the long responses you've provided itt than it should take to find Shaq being doubled for extended periods.

Of course, Shaq was never doubled every possession for extended periods like MJ was - [COLOR="Navy"][I]I went through all the games from the 2000 Finals[/I][/COLOR], when Shaq was at his uber-peak... The most he was ever doubled was 3 times in a row.

It never happened for longer stretches like MJ, for 2 reasons: 1) the option was always there to send Shaq to FT line - he has a zillion unearned FT's in his career... 2) For Shaq's entire career, he played with All-NBA guards and a bevy of 3-point shooters, so it was far more dangerous to double Shaq than MJ, whose 80's teams were a 1-man show with no 3-point shooters.. All irrefutable facts.


[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/QvXF8J.gif[/IMG]


[B]MJ isn't even doubled in the above GIF[/B]


[/QUOTE]
Jordan is clearly about to be double-teamed, but he avoids it by spinning the other way.. It's clear as day.. But apparently, whatever blinders you're wearing are reaaallly effective.

Also, if I wanted to (and I might), I could find many more instances of MJ being doubled every possession for extended periods.. All I have to do is look up ANY Bulls-Pistons playoff game from 1988-1990 - that's when MJ faced the "Jordan Rules", which were double teams every time he caught the ball!!


[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

[B]he probably wasn't even doubled every possession like you say.
[/B]
your 2-3 cherry picked examples ([B]even if they are legit[/B]) certainly don't prove anything.

[/QUOTE]
So the bolded above implies that you purposefully didn't watch any of the evidence I provided itt - you obviously didn't look at the gifs I posted in the OP that showed MJ was doubled every time he caught the ball for 9 minutes...

And you didn't watch the Atlanta game where MJ was doubled on 12 of 13 possessions (shown below from 6:40 mark to 8:40 mark).. You won't watch the evidence because you're afraid of what you'll see (MJ being doubled in a fashion that Shaq never was):

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s[/url]

[QUOTE=3ball]Waste time??... It takes more time to type the long responses you've provided itt than it should take to find Shaq being doubled for extended periods.
[/QUOTE]

Any video of Prime Shaq will show him being doubled consistently.
Go watch G2 of the 2001 Finals if you want.
Doubled on almost every possession.

Jordan was never auto-doubled over his Prime against almost every opponent the way Shaq was.

[QUOTE]whose 80's teams were a 1-man show with no 3-point shooters.. All irrefutable facts.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah well in the 90's Jordan had Pippen and sharp shooters like Kerr, Kukoc and Paxson.
He was doubled far less then.
Go watch the 92 Finals. Portland barely doubled Jordan in that series.

[QUOTE]Jordan is clearly about to be double-teamed[/QUOTE]

The help was late. Jordan was not doubled on that play.

[QUOTE]Also, if I wanted to (and I might), I could find many more instances of MJ being doubled every possession for extended periods.[/QUOTE]

I watched one of the videos and it wasn't all doubles.
Yes I am sure you can find games where Jordan got heavily doubled and the same is true for Shaq (but in greater quantity).

[QUOTE]All I have to do is look up ANY Bulls-Pistons playoff game from 1988-1990 - that's when MJ faced the "Jordan Rules", which were double teams every time he caught the ball!![/QUOTE]

Yes Detroit went after Jordan pretty hard.
Jordan still did great because he is the GOAT.
You might think I dislike Jordan but I don't.
I just don't think he was doubled more then Shaq and I think it is ok if we disagree on that.
Anyone who watched both of them knows that Shaq was doubled far more often.
No one in league history came close to drawing as many double/triple teams as Prime Shaq did. Not even the GOAT (MJ).
Your energy is best spent working on some other facet of his game because you are never gonna convince people of this.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]Any video of Prime Shaq will show him being doubled consistently.
Go watch G2 of the 2001 Finals if you want.
Doubled on almost every possession.

Jordan was never auto-doubled over his Prime against almost every opponent the way Shaq was.



Yeah well in the 90's Jordan had Pippen and sharp shooters like Kerr, Kukoc and Paxson.
He was doubled far less then.
Go watch the 92 Finals. Portland barely doubled Jordan in that series.



The help was late. Jordan was not doubled on that play.



I watched one of the videos and it wasn't all doubles.
Yes I am sure you can find games where Jordan got heavily doubled and the same is true for Shaq (but in greater quantity).



Yes Detroit went after Jordan pretty hard.
Jordan still did great because he is the GOAT.
You might think I dislike Jordan but I don't.
I just don't think he was doubled more then Shaq and I think it is ok if we disagree on that.
Anyone who watched both of them knows that Shaq was doubled far more often.
No one in league history came close to drawing as many double/triple teams as Prime Shaq did. Not even the GOAT (MJ).
Your energy is best spent working on some other facet of his game because you are never gonna convince people of this.[/QUOTE]
How about this how many doubles and triples? [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70[/url]

[QUOTE=juju151111]How about this how many doubles and triples? [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70[/url][/QUOTE]

I made my own edit of this very game. I added a few possessions that were missed. Along with annotations to focus on other aspects of the game.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujtZZ5n4AeA&ab_channel=andgar923[/url]