Remember when 34-35 year old MJ was more dominant than 2000 Shaq?

[QUOTE=3ball]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.7.. 102
[I][COLOR="Navy"]O'NEAL[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.6.. 101

[COLOR="DarkRed"][B]Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more Kobe offset Jordan:[/B][/COLOR]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.1, 103
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: [COLOR="Red"]-0.5[/COLOR], 105


If we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well.

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing 2 great players [COLOR="blue"]at different positions[/COLOR] - or if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).

[/QUOTE][QUOTE=aj1987]Again, your mom should've just swallowed and spared the world of your idiocy.[/QUOTE]
the argument above is sound as f.uck

[I]the stats show that longley offset shaq [I][COLOR="Navy"]in the boxscore[/COLOR][/I] more than kobe did mj - a lot more, which helps illustrate my argument above..[/I]

btw, i'm sure longley's defensive impact was closer to shaq's than you thought it was - you guys don't realize that longley was a solid defender, plus you're overrating Shaq.. longley was a big dude that took up space in the paint just like shaq did.

which brings me to my next point - unlike jordan, shaq wouldn't be a good defender in THIS era, where big men don't stand in the paint on defense like they used to - shaq's big ass taking up space was the #1 reason he had a decent impact defensively... the times he managed to shuffle his feet defensively were infrequent because he didn't have to come out on the perimeter often like today's bigs do, and he wasn't as good on the perimeter as say, Hakeem or Robinson.
.

aj1997, repost your last response because i deleted and resposted as you were responding.

[QUOTE=3ball]the argument above is sound as f.uck

[I]the stats show that longley offset shaq [I][COLOR="Navy"]in the boxscore[/COLOR][/I] more than kobe did mj - a lot more, which helps illustrate my argument above..[/I]

btw, i'm sure longley's defensive impact was closer to shaq's than you thought it was - you guys don't realize that longley was a solid defender, plus you're overrating Shaq.. longley was a big dude that took up space in the paint just like shaq did.

which brings me to my next point - unlike jordan, shaq wouldn't be a good defender in THIS era, where big men don't stand in the paint on defense like they used to - shaq's big ass taking up space was the #1 reason he had a decent impact defensively... inb4 you bring up far less frequent occasions where he managed to shuffle his massive feet defensively.[/QUOTE]
Your moms swallow game is strong AF.

MJ would be Jimmy Butler with worse defense today. :cheers:

[QUOTE=3ball]aj1997, repost your last response because i deleted and resposted as you were responding.[/QUOTE]
You really need help kid. I wouldn't mind recommending a couple therapists, depending upon your city.

Answer with yes/no to the following question please:

Did 00' O'Neal have more defensive impact than 97' or 98' Jordan?

[QUOTE=Dr Hawk]Answer with yes/no to the following question please:

Did 00' O'Neal have more defensive impact than 97' or 98' Jordan?[/QUOTE]

For sure .

.
[COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"][I][B]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"]....................[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]



[B][SIZE="2"][COLOR="Red"][I]As I said originally - 34/35 year old MJ was more dominant than prime Shaq - it wasn't even close, as the stats show above[/I][/color][/SIZE][/B]

[IMG]http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/031/549/19f.4604[/IMG]

[QUOTE=3ball].

[COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"][I][B]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]

[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]

[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Dr Hawk]

Answer with yes/no to the following question please:

Did 00' O'Neal have more defensive impact than 97' or 98' Jordan?

[/QUOTE]

You want me to answer your question, when not a single poster concedes any of the points I've made itt - and no one even brought up defense until I posted the stats above, proving MJ was the far more dominant player.
.

[QUOTE=Dr Hawk]

Answer with yes/no to the following question please:

Did 00' O'Neal have more defensive impact than 97' or 98' Jordan?

[/QUOTE]
When comparing a center to a guard, such as Shaq to MJ, it's useless to consider defense because they play different positions... If we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq's defense in the boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (seen below).

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing 2 great players [COLOR="navy"][I]at different positions[/I][/COLOR] - if anything, the edge should go to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).


[I][COLOR="Navy"]LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.7.. 102
[I][COLOR="Navy"]O'NEAL[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.6.. 101

[COLOR="DarkRed"][B]Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more Kobe offset Jordan:[/B][/COLOR]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.1, 103
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: [COLOR="Red"]-0.5[/COLOR], 105

.
[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]



[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]



[B][SIZE="2"][COLOR="darkRed"][I]As I said originally - 34/35 year old MJ was more dominant than prime Shaq - it wasn't even close, as the stats show above[/I][/color][/SIZE][/B]


[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/bxnXSJV07za7e/giphy.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=3ball].
[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]



[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]



[B][SIZE="2"][COLOR="darkRed"][I]As I said originally - 34/35 year old MJ was more dominant than prime Shaq - it wasn't even close, as the stats show above[/I][/color][/SIZE][/B]


[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/bxnXSJV07za7e/giphy.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

That's a misleading stat because adding assists obviously favors MJ.

I will say that Shaq was more consistently DOMINANT but that MJ was more CLUTCH and carried the larger offensive load when the team needed it most. But MJ wasn't the same overall force he was like his first 3 peat. His rebounding/assists/steals all took a dive and for obvious reasons (age and having to carry a large offensive load). But MJ also wasn't as efficient as his 1st 3 peat either while Shaq was GOAT level efficient. All of this matters. There is no clear cut answer.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

But MJ also wasn't as efficient as his 1st 3 peat either [B][COLOR="Red"]while Shaq was GOAT level efficient.[/COLOR][/B] All of this matters. There is no clear cut answer.

[/QUOTE]

[B]It's weird how posters come on here and say things that are blatantly false:
[/B]

[b][COLOR="Navy"]O'Neal Efficiency in 2000 Playoffs[/COLOR][/b]: 55.6 ts.. 114 ORtg
[B][COLOR="Navy"]Jordan Efficiency in 1998 Playoffs[/COLOR][/B]: 54.5 ts.. 117 ORtg


Neither was GOAT-level, but MJ's was better


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]That's a misleading stat because adding assists obviously favors MJ.
[/COLOR][/B]
[/quote]
I'm curious - did the stats that included assists make you forget about the OP stats that just showed scoring???... I only added the assist stats because other posters were saying it was a factor.. Either way, it isn't close..


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

I will say that Shaq was more consistently DOMINANT but that MJ was more CLUTCH and carried the larger offensive load [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]when the team needed it most.[/COLOR][/B]

[/quote]
[I]MJ carried a much larger offensive load for the entire game, not just in the clutch, whether you look at just points, or points + assists.. The data speaks for itself... But it seems like you're only seeing what you want to see, which is amazing.[/I]

It's funny how the data always favors MJ, and it's the other guy that needs excuses to make up the gap - it's laughable..

Also, when you say Shaq was more consistently dominant - based on what?... Based on his FAR lower proportion of points, points + assists, or clutch play??... Or just because he's a big guy?... It's obviously the latter in your mind, since it CAN'T be any of the former.


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

But MJ wasn't the same overall force he was like his first 3 peat. His rebounding/assists/steals all took a dive and for obvious reasons (age and having to carry a large offensive load).

[/quote]
Obviously he wasn't the same force as the first 3-peat, but it doesn't matter when comparing to Shaq's prime:

As demonstrated by the OP stats (that show scoring) or the stats on this page (which include assists), MJ carried a much bigger offensive load than Shaq.

[QUOTE=3ball]I'm curious - did the stats that included assists make you forget about the OP stats that just showed scoring???... I only added the assist stats because other posters were saying it was a factor.. Either way, it isn't close..



[I]MJ carried a much larger offensive load for the entire game, not just in the clutch, whether you look at just points, or points + assists.. The data speaks for itself... But it seems like you're only seeing what you want to see, which is amazing.[/I]

It's funny how the data always favors MJ, and it's the other guy that needs excuses to make up the gap - it's laughable..

Also, when you say Shaq was more consistently dominant - based on what?... Based on his FAR lower proportion of points, points + assists, or clutch play??... Or just because he's a big guy?... It's obviously the latter in your mind, since it CAN'T be any of the former.



Obviously he wasn't the same force as the first 3-peat, but it doesn't matter when comparing to Shaq's prime:

As demonstrated by the OP stats (that show scoring) or the stats on this page (which include assists), MJ carried a much bigger offensive load than Shaq.




[B]It's weird how posters come on here and say things that are blatantly false:
[/B]

[b][COLOR="Navy"]O'Neal Efficiency in 2000 Playoffs[/COLOR][/b]: 55.6 ts.. 114 ORtg
[B][COLOR="Navy"]Jordan Efficiency in 1998 Playoffs[/COLOR][/B]: 54.5 ts.. 117 ORtg


Neither was GOAT-level, but MJ's was better
.[/QUOTE]

I see your points. I'm not here to argue against you but I disagree that it "wasn't close." It certainly was. And I already conceded that MJ was more clutch, carried a larger offensive load and provided more scoring when it mattered most. Those are huge concessions.

But some of your stats are misleading. Like TS%. That is pointless for a guy like Shaq because his bad FT% lowers his TS% tremendously. Shaq made 58% of his shots on 21.1 attempts per game in 2000. That is tremendous efficiency. It's not like a D. Jordan or T. Chandler taking 5-8 shots a game.

A fair stat is PER:

Shaq 2000:

[B]RS: 30.6
PO: 30.5[/B]

MJ 1997 and 1998:

[B]RS: 26.5
PO: 27.6
[/B]

MJ's dip in PER is simply attributable to the lower FG% and lower overall impact in the other areas of the game. And that does matter. So I'm just saying it was close.

And Shaq's 2000 was historically efficient. His PER of 30.65 is 14th best all-time.

And ORTG is also not a fair stat to Shaq due to his poor FT shooting as the guy who invented the stat (Dean Oliver) said, "[I]Though [Shaquille O'Neal] may have a high floor percentage," Oliver writes, "his poor foul shooting means that he has a lot of one-point possessions, bringing his offensive rating down a bit."[/I]

Your view of FT shooting is the most biased thing I've ever read on ISH