Hakeem the Dream vs Tim Duncan

What does that have to do with being past your prime? That saids nothing about longevity.

Hakeem's prime 1993-1995 7 years after his prime he was putting up 12/7/1
Duncan's Prime 2001-2003 7 years after his prime he was putting up 18/10/3(This season)

I don't get what you're trying to do? Are you punishing Duncan for not having as late a prime as Hakeem? Hakeem had a prime later in his career so of course he's gonna be putting up better numbers at age 33. But how does that translate to longevity?

That's like saying Nash has better longevity then every point guard because he has a later prime and is productive at an older age.

[QUOTE=D-Town-Raised]Duncan has played 10 years. Lets takes Hakeem's stats for his first 11 years. (You could do the first 13 if you want to)

Hakeem 24 Points 12.4 Rebounds 3.6 Blocks 2.5 Assists 1.9 Steals
Duncan 21.8 Points 11.9 Rebounds 2.4 Blocks 3.2 Assists .8

Your right it is not even close by your own criteria.

You are accounting career stats when Hakeem played 17 years. He injured himself in 97-98, then came the strike season, then for three years he played 20 minutes a game as an old man ending with Toronto. This is the only reason their stats are close.

Hakeem dominates individual stats for the same career length so far and if Duncan playes seven more years Hakeems full career stats will dominate again.

There is absolutely nothing Duncan does better then Hakeem except low post passing.

Hakeem better man to man defender
Hakeem better low post moves.
Hakeem better scorer.
Hakeem better handles.
Hakeem better range on jumper.
Hakeem better free throw shooter.
Hakeem better off the ball blocker.

Duncan is no more of a Power Forward then Hakeem is a Power Forward.

Garnett and Duncan are both Power Forwards. Yet they were both on All NBA First Team in 2003-2004. If you choose only one then Duncan is out and on the second team. If Hakeem was allowed to be placed as a center or on either forward spots his first 13 years like they do with players now. (Amare, two Power Forwards at the Forward Position etc...) he would have had 10 or 11 All NBA first teams in his first 13 years.

Duncan 4 Finals 3 Wins Still Pending 4
Hakeem 3 Finals 2 Wins

Even with Jordan retired the road to Hakeems two championships where harder then any road Duncan has ever taken. The Nets in the finals.:oldlol: Strike season with Ewing hurt.:oldlol: The Cavaliers.:oldlol:

In 94-95 Hakeem beat the four teams with the best records in the NBA.

Prime Hakeem is vastly superior to Duncan.
Career Hakeem is a notch above Duncan.

Championships define individual careers by grabbing at least two and being able to carry your team to one practically by yourself. When you start stacking them up it becomes about era, team and who you play. For this reason. Bill Russell will never be better then Jordan and Duncan will never be better then Hakeem even if he wins 6 titles.[/QUOTE]
Good post. Talent wise Duncan isnt on Hakeems level, although no question they are both All-time great players. Dream in his prime was [B]better [/B]in every area except passing, so how come this is even comparison? The only thing which brings them closer are team-based accolades.

[QUOTE=Harison]Good post. Talent wise Duncan isnt on Hakeems level, although no question they are both All-time great players. Dream in his prime was [B]better [/B]in every area except passing, so how come this is even comparison? The only thing which brings them closer are team-based accolades.[/QUOTE]

Because.

On the court skill wise they were never that far apart. Hakeem may be better in most aspects but he was never "that much better" That it's enough to set them apart. So it usually comes down to Hakeem being slightly better in nearly every aspect on the court against Duncan being the greater winner and having better longevity.

And yes rings do have alot to do with ranking players .

Duncan is and should only be compared to Jabbar and Shaq. Duncan did everything Hakeem did and won twice as many titles. Hakeem is ****ing overrated. One highlight clip made this guy very overrated. Hakeeem got stats when stats were ****ing easy to get. Fast pace means easy blocks, more rebounds, more points. Duncan played in a way slower pace and got similar stats.
Passing-Duncan
One on One D-Duncan
Shotblocker-Hakeem
Scorer-Hakeem
Better team defender- Duncan
Rebounder-Duncan
Free throws-Hakeem
Shooter-equal
Leader and IQ-Duncan
Sure hakeem had a better scoring average and rebounding numbers but in a way faster pace. Not to mention centers were allow to hack like hell goaltend and live in the key made it easire to get blocks.
Had Duncan played against the easy competition Hakeem played against he would have sick ****ing numbers. For every Robinson and Ewing there was 15 luc longleys. Duncan played in a perimeter player friendly era and still dominated on D. Duncan and Hakeem are very similar but Duncan was the better player. 4 rings in the Shaq and Kobe era is more impressive than 2 rings in a Ewing/Robinson/Malone era.
People calling Hakeem fast as a gaurd and the greatest defender ever need to die.

[QUOTE=Big#50]Duncan is and should only be compared to Jabbar and Shaq. Duncan did everything Hakeem did and won twice as many titles. Hakeem is ****ing overrated. One highlight clip made this guy very overrated. Hakeeem got stats when stats were ****ing easy to get. Fast pace means easy blocks, more rebounds, more points. Duncan played in a way slower pace and got similar stats.
Passing-Duncan
One on One D-Duncan
Shotblocker-Hakeem
Scorer-Hakeem
[B]Better team defender- Duncan[/B]
Rebounder-Duncan
Free throws-Hakeem
[B]Shooter-equal[/B]
Leader and IQ-Duncan
Sure hakeem had a better scoring average and rebounding numbers but in a way faster pace. Not to mention centers were allow to hack like hell goaltend and live in the key made it easire to get blocks.
Had Duncan played against the easy competition Hakeem played against he would have sick ****ing numbers. For every Robinson and Ewing there was 15 luc longleys. Duncan played in a perimeter player friendly era and still dominated on D. Duncan and Hakeem are very similar but Duncan was the better player. 4 rings in the Shaq and Kobe era is more impressive than 2 rings in a Ewing/Robinson/Malone era.
People calling Hakeem fast as a gaurd and the greatest defender ever need to die.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will]Because.

On the court skill wise they were never that far apart. Hakeem may be better in most aspects but he was never "that much better" That it's enough to set them apart. So it usually comes down to Hakeem being slightly better in nearly every aspect on the court against Duncan being the greater winner and having better longevity.

And yes rings do have alot to do with ranking players .[/QUOTE]
As I've watched them and not just checked stats, Dream was [I][B]visibly [/B][/I]better overall player. One could very well make a case of Robinson and Duncan being on the same level (accolades aside), and Hakeem schooled DRob. The main difference between TD and DRob were Playoffs, Duncan played better and Rob worse, but Hakeem so much so improved in the post-season, that its a no contest again:

The peak Duncan playoff run at 25 was [B]27.6/14.4/5.0[/B] at TS 55%, that's a bit better than 25.5/12.7/3.7 at TS 57%.

Hakeem peaked at [B]37.5/16.8/1.8[/B] at TS 64%, compare that to 22.8/12.1/2.1 at TS 55% in the regular season, its [B]ridiculous [/B]how much Dream kicked to the higher gear in the post-season. Or at the age of 32 Dream went 33.0/10.3/4.5

Duncan greater winner? He has more rings, but it doesnt mean that much if we forget the context - Duncan had a better team [B]and [/B]competition in most years was weaker than teams Dream faced. How many rings would TD have even with his better team against Jordan, Showtime Lakers, Bird's Celtics, Isiah's Bad Boys? Probably none.

Its true Hakeem would probably have one ring less if Jordan wouldnt have retired, but Dream's championship run was one of the greatest individual run in the post-season, ever, upseting much better teams in the process, he probably is the second player in NBA history almost single-handedly winning the rings, Duncan/Shaq/Kobe and other superstars havent managed that, hell even Jordan couldnt (in big part because of much more fierce competition in his days). So no, Duncan isnt a greater winner, just was in better position team and era wise.

[QUOTE=Harison]As I've watched them and not just checked stats, Dream was [I][B]visibly [/B][/I]better overall player. One could very well make a case of Robinson and Duncan being on the same level (accolades aside), and Hakeem schooled DRob. The main difference between TD and DRob were Playoffs, Duncan played better and Rob worse, but Hakeem so much so improved in the post-season, that its a no contest again:

The peak Duncan playoff run at 25 was [B]27.6/14.4/5.0[/B] at TS 55%, that's a bit better than 25.5/12.7/3.7 at TS 57%.

Hakeem peaked at [B]37.5/16.8/1.8[/B] at TS 64%, compare that to 22.8/12.1/2.1 at TS 55% in the regular season, its [B]ridiculous [/B]how much Dream kicked to the higher gear in the post-season. Or at the age of 32 Dream went 33.0/10.3/4.5

Duncan greater winner? He has more rings, but it doesnt mean that much if we forget the context - Duncan had a better team [B]and [/B]competition in most years was weaker than teams Dream faced. How many rings would TD have even with his better team against Jordan, Showtime Lakers, Bird's Celtics, Isiah's Bad Boys? Probably none.

Its true Hakeem would probably have one ring less if Jordan wouldnt have retired, but Dream's championship run was one of the greatest individual run in the post-season, ever, upseting much better teams in the process, he probably is the second player in NBA history almost single-handedly winning the rings, Duncan/Shaq/Kobe and other superstars havent managed that, hell even Jordan couldnt (in big part because of much more fierce competition in his days). So no, Duncan isnt a greater winner, just was in better position team and era wise.[/QUOTE]
Duncan had to beat Shaq/Kobe. Watch Duncan in 03. This era is greater than your beloved 80's and 90's era. When did Hakeem win a ring by himself. I hope you don't mean 94.

[QUOTE=Harison]As I've watched them and not just checked stats, Dream was [I][B]visibly [/B][/I]better overall player. One could very well make a case of Robinson and Duncan being on the same level (accolades aside), and Hakeem schooled DRob. The main difference between TD and DRob were Playoffs, Duncan played better and Rob worse, but Hakeem so much so improved in the post-season, that its a no contest again:

The peak Duncan playoff run at 25 was [B]27.6/14.4/5.0[/B] at TS 55%, that's a bit better than 25.5/12.7/3.7 at TS 57%.

Hakeem peaked at [B]37.5/16.8/1.8[/B] at TS 64%, compare that to 22.8/12.1/2.1 at TS 55% in the regular season, its [B]ridiculous [/B]how much Dream kicked to the higher gear in the post-season. Or at the age of 32 Dream went 33.0/10.3/4.5

[B][U]Duncan greater winner? He has more rings, but it doesnt mean that much if we forget the context - Duncan had a better team [B]and [/B]competition in most years was weaker than teams Dream faced. How many rings would TD have even with his better team against Jordan, Showtime Lakers, Bird's Celtics, Isiah's Bad Boys? Probably none.
[/U][/B]
[B][U]Its true Hakeem would probably have one ring less if Jordan wouldnt have retired, but Dream's championship run was one of the greatest individual run in the post-season, ever, upseting much better teams in the process, he probably is the second player in NBA history almost single-handedly winning the rings, Duncan/Shaq/Kobe and other superstars havent managed that, hell even Jordan couldnt (in big part because of much more fierce competition in his days). So no, Duncan isnt a greater winner, just was in better position team and era wise.[/U][/B][/QUOTE]

So basically your main point is to speculate what would happened if Duncan played in the 90's how the hell are we supposed to know that? For all I know Duncan could have been the anti Jordan. I can't rank a player based on what they could have won in a different era. I rank them on what they did in whatever era they played. Should I say Russel's not a greater winner then Hakeem cause he didn't play in the Jordan era ?

That's plain retarded. I'm not saying Duncan is better then Hakeem but to deny he's a greater winner then Hakeem just based on the era he played is retarded.

So by that logic any player who didn't play against Jordan isn't a greater winner then Hakeem?

Come on now Duncan's team never missed the playoffs since he came into the Nba and never had less then a 50 win season. That is the model of winning

And what's your point about Hakeem's championship run?

Duncan also put up one of the greatest championship runs of all time in 2003 when he carried the rebuilding spurs.

[B]
40/15/7 Vs The Mavs
34/24/6/6 Vs The Mavs
37/16/4 Vs The Lakers
36/9/5 Vs The Lakers
28/8/7 Vs The Lakers
27/14/5 Vs The Lakers
32/20/6/7 Vs The Nets

[/B]Triple Double 15/20 rebounds/10 assists Vs The Suns
[B]
Near Quarduable double Finals clinching game 21/20/10/8

Broke the record for most block in a playoff series and tied most blocks in an Nba game.[/B]


[B]Vs. Suns:
18.7 ppg, 16 rpg, 5.2 ast, 3.5 blks

vs. Lakers:
28 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 4.8 ast, 1.3 blks

vs. Mavs:
28 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 5.8 ast, 3 blks

vs. Nets:
24.2ppg, 17 rpg, 5.3 ast, 5.3 blks[/B]

1993-1994 Houston Rockets(58-24):

Pg: Kenny Smith/Sam Cassell/Scott Brooks
Sg: Vernon Maxwell/Mario Elie/Larry Robinson
Sf: Robert Horry/Chris Jent/Matt Bullard
Pf: Otis Thorpe/Carl Herrera/Earn Crueton
C: Hakeem Olajuwon/Richard Petruska/Eric Riley


2002-2003 San Antonio Spurs(60-22):

Pg: Tony Parker/Steve Kerr/Speedy Claxton
Sg: Stephen Jackson/Manu Ginobili
Sf: Bruce Bowen/Steve Smith/Danny Ferry
Pf: Tim Duncan/Malik Rose
C: David Robinson/Kevin Willis/Mengke Bateer


Neither team had a legit second option

I'll take Duncan. Similar peak/prime,more accolades/accomplishments, and greater longevity.

[QUOTE=Harison]Good post. Talent wise Duncan isnt on Hakeems level, although no question they are both All-time great players. Dream in his prime was [B]better [/B]in every area except passing, so how come this is even comparison? The only thing which brings them closer are team-based accolades.[/QUOTE]
Duncan was better at more things. Hakeem had better footwork and speed. Nothing else. Duncan won't ever get the respect he deserves. Watch some prime Duncan. Duncan was ten times better at getting to the rim. Was a better defender. Duncan never went for fakes Pops slow ass grind it out style of play.Duncan in the 80's and 90's under a coach like John Lucas would have had 30/16/4. No doubt about it.

These 2 are very close. All around interior defense I would give it to Timmy. For pure blocking, I would give the edge to Hakeem. For low post scoring, I would go with Timmy. For all around scoring probably Hakeem.

This is pretty much a toss up.

Edit: After further contemplation, I think Tim Duncan is overall the better player. Olajuwon is pretty damn good too though.

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will]So basically your main point is to speculate what would happened if Duncan played in the 90's how the hell are we supposed to know that? For all I know Duncan could have been the anti Jordan. I can't rank a player based on what they could have won in a different era. I rank them on what they did in whatever era they played. Should I say Russel's not a greater winner then Hakeem cause he didn't play in the Jordan era ?

That's plain retarded. I'm not saying Duncan is better then Hakeem but to deny he's a greater winner then Hakeem just based on the era he played is retarded.

So by that logic any player who didn't play against Jordan isn't a greater winner then Hakeem?

Come on now Duncan's team never missed the playoffs since he came into the Nba and never had less then a 50 win season. That is the model of winning[/QUOTE]
You missed the point entirely. The point is - Hakeem individually did [B]better [/B]in the postseason than Duncan and did it against [B]tougher [/B]competition. To point it out is a common sense, not retarded :rolleyes: On the other hand, to ignore the teammates and era when judging players accolades is not very wise. And why you single out Jordan? I was speaking about era, and if you think Duncan faced every year anyone remotely close to what elite teams faced it back then - its not very wise either.

Its funny how you cherry pick games to make case stronger for Duncan, when you [B][I]know [/I][/B]Hakeem did a better job in the Playoffs and have even more impressive game results. Plus considering this era is very weak frontcourt wise, Hakeem would have even better stats than he did in his days, but its not needed:

1) we already established Dream kicked to the higher gear in the Playoffs than Duncan.

2) we already established Hakeem was more overall skilled than TD as well.