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When I think about this analysis it sounds like a pro LeBron thread as much as Im sure he didnt mean for it to be. Before the start of this season AD was a fringe top 15 player in the league by most accounts and now after playing 16 games with James he is drawing Kareem comparisons? Dont you see the connection and how this is a pro Lebron comment?
[QUOTE=warriorfan][url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DiJZjmrUy68[/url]
He was injured and didn’t even play a game lol. Man you are a dumb piece of shit. Good luck with that.[/QUOTE]
He played 4 games in the sweep dude. Do you really think I don't remember this?
You are confusing the 99 playoffs and the 00 finals...who is the dumb piece of shit now?
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Sorry, to argue that it is fair to go after Lebron for his performance in the 07 finals...but not fair to go after Kobe in the 99 playoffs...isn't consistent.
Doesn't matter what type of "guy" I am...even though you are off-base there as well in how you are categorizing it.[/QUOTE]
except that he didnt. Hes comparing kobe in 2008-10 with lebron in 2011-14. Which is a fair comparison although lebron has a superteam.
[QUOTE=knicksman]except that he didnt. Hes comparing kobe in 2008-10 with lebron in 2011-14. Which is a fair comparison although lebron has a superteam.[/QUOTE]
Actually no, that isn't what we've been discussing.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
3. As you know, I agree that Lebron's style can at times be suboptimal. This is why I don't rate him as highly as others do. Problem is...this is true for Kobe as well in terms of his style being suboptimal...again...please go read the breakdown of Kobe at Backpicks...it details much of this. Also, [COLOR="Blue"][B]to say coaches didn't have issues with Kobe[/B][/COLOR] is either the result of ignorance or more blatant lying. Come on now...
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[SIZE="3"]they had an issue with kobe, but he's FAR more coachable than Lebron.
Lebron is infact NOT coachable.. He rejected coaching from everyone, including [url=https://sports.yahoo.com/lebron-james-reportedly-ignoring-luke-waltons-play-calls-nobodys-surprise-210514450.html]Walton[/url], [url=http://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/lebron-james-attitude-listen-to-tyronne-lue-cavs-heat-david-blatt/hjmyp8w984gi1xkzex534zc19]Lue[/url], [url=https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/12/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-david-blatt-rift]Blatt[/url], and [url=https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/fl-miami-heat-news-0402-20150401-story.html]Spolestra[/url]
He always ran lebron-ball instead of getting coached, so the next Phil Jackson wasn't allowed[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
4. Lebron doesn't have as many rings as he should have because of what I consider to be one of, if not the biggest, meltdowns by a star in NBA history. To argue that Lebron should have more than 4 rings based on his circumstances is insane...unless one were to think he's the GOAT...which obviously isn't true here. A fair question would be, why are your expectations so high for a player you don't think was nearly as good as most do?
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There's no excuse for him losing in 2014.. None... Except to take it easy on him
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
Again, you are using title or bust here. We all agree about Lebron in 11. However, this is a direct parallel to that for Kobe in 04...and I mean direct. [B][COLOR="darkred"]Do we have to pretend like Wade/Bosh were playing at great levels in 14? [/COLOR][/B]Please don't do that. Do we have to pretend about 2015 out there with nobody? Do we have to pretend like there was a real chance in 17/18?
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Bosh was in his prime but couldn't be activated because he was reduced to spot-up shooter - so it's on lebron that he couldn't activate Bosh when Wade wasn't responding.. Bosh would've been a superstar under Kobe, not some spot-up shooter.. again, kobe/wade/bosh would be RIDICULOUS... 4/4 easily
And Wade wouldn't be lackluster in any series alongside Kobe - it just wouldn't happen - wade has too much respect for kobe to do that.. but the reality is that wade saw that lebron checked out, so he was like "[I]cool, cause me knees are sore brah.. let's plan our vacations before game 5[/I]"
But the reality is that Wade was just fine - he was lights out in the ECF, and therefore in much better shape heading into the Finals than say, 98' Pippen, who stuck it up in the ECF..
So Wade was fine, but he had bad Finals stats because that's what happens to secondary players when their team is getting blown away and their brand completely usurped - the secondary players can't stat-pad like the #1 option can.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
The problem when making this argument against Lebron in favor of Kobe is that the only counter is that Kobe wasn't good enough yet to win with Shaq. He failed as the favorite in 99. Was carried in the finals in 00. [B][COLOR="Blue"]Again, imagine Lebron winning a title playing like Kobe did in 00[/COLOR][/B]...I swear...I'd worry about you. Then he loses as the favorite in 03 and 04. Loses again as the favorite in 08 and gets upset in 11...then, as you said...really started declining. That just doesn't holde up very well when the same stuff is thrown back at him. It is just...3 titles while being the 2nd best player on his own team...that inflates his titles won for his circumstances.
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People forget that Lebron averaged 16 on 39% through 3 games of the 2013 Finals - it's a testament to his cast that the Heat weren't down 3-0 at that point and still had a chance.. It was basically 2011 all over again (23 on 43% thru 6 games), but this time Jesus saved him and allowed him 2nd life..
Regardless, Lebron was a net negative for the series - the Heat lost with him on the floor - so I think Lebron's 2013 Finals in his uber-prime is equal to Kobe's 2000 performance when he wasn't in his prime.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
I will say this again and it needs to be dealt with. Kobe in the 00 finals was actually not even as good as Lebron in 11...and he got a title out of it. Ask me again why I don't like counting up titles to compare great players...LOL
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People forget that Lebron averaged 16 on 39% through 3 games of the 2013 Finals - it's a testament to his cast that the Heat weren't down 3-0 at that point and still had a chance.. It was basically 2011 all over again (23 on 43% thru 6 games), but this time Jesus saved him and allowed him 2nd life.. Regardless, Lebron was a net negative for the series - the Heat lost with him on the floor - so I think Lebron's 2013 Finals in his uber-prime is equal to Kobe's 2000 performance when he wasn't in his prime.
Ultimately, Lebron has as many bad performances as Kobe.. And he was outscored in 4-5 different series by a teammate, while Kobe never was.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
6. 2011? Yes. Other years? No, he's not. [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]The notion that Kobe is getting a title off the Durant Warriors tells me everything I need to know here[/COLOR][/B]...just an absurd take. I might as well just say I think Lebron wins 6 titles in his first 8 years with Shaq. Honestly probably a better chance of that happening than Kobe, in year 14 of his career...beating those Warriors.
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Harden almost beat them, so Kobe would destroy them.. He wouldn't even need Kyrie and Love - just give him and injured cp3 and that would be enough.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
5. Kobe won with some of the most stacked teams relative to competition in NBA history. To use the "help" argument here against Lebron is pretty bad even for you. No doubt Lebron has played on a bunch of loaded teams since 2010, but Kobe over the course of his career did as well.
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^^^ that's a lie - pau and role players isn't a stacked team.. you're lying.
Kobe won with a Bosh at 2nd option, while Lebron needed Bosh at 3rd option - Kobe won with less... it's not complicated.. just imagine if he had Wade too.... :facepalm … my goodness - seriously, kobe/wade/bosh - they'd never lose... 70-win champions for sure... kobe never played with talent like that.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
2. Again, I disagree about 2010 and 2016. But, [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]when it comes to 16...what does it matter? Lebron won and was great.[/COLOR][/B]
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It matters because Lebron won as a perceived lucky underdog in 2016
but if he won 70 games in 2016 and won as the favorite, he would've entered 2017 as a 70-win champion and the ultimate juggernaut favorite - it wouldn't matter what KD did - that's how kobe would've won and he'd enter 2017 as a huge favorite regardless of KD...
and again, Kobe/Kyrie/Love would NOT be an underdog to KD/Curry/Klay and would've had good odds to win in 2017.. Otoh, Lebron's 53-win team was perceived as overmatched, despite having enough talent to win (many guys won with [I]real[/I] talent deficits, i.e. dirk in 2011 and many more)
..
[QUOTE=warriorfan][url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DiJZjmrUy68[/url]
He was injured and didn
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Nice edit you ****ing clown.
No, the point is that it isn't fair to absolve Kobe of his first 3 to 4 years and then act like Lebron should have been beating a team in the 07 finals that Kobe couldn't beat at a similar stage of his career with Shaq.[/QUOTE]
20 year old LeBron would have done worse than Kobe if you swapped places with him against that team. You are a low iq clown if you think otherwise.
1. I assume you mean Spo is the next Phil Jackson. I love Spo, so I agree that he had a very good coach in Spo. I disagree that Lebron wasn't coachable, but even if I did...I don't know how that impacted Spo being a great coach.
2. Most people aren't aware of how big of favorites the Spurs really should have been in 14. We will just have to avoid this as we couldn't be further apart. My guess is that you assume Wade/Bosh were way better than they actually were. The Spurs won 62 games, had the best SRS, and a more balanced team than the Heat.
3. Competition matters. But, Bosh missed serious time in 12 and hardly was anything approaching Pau standards in the playoffs when they won. In addition, both Wade/Bosh were severely diminished in reality vs how you are treating them in the 13 playoffs as well.
Nah, it wasn't because of Lebron ball. They were battling injuries throughout that run from the 12 playoffs on.
Again, of course there is going to be some reduction when you have 3 guys like that...you can't optimally have 3 players like that producing...sacrifice is necessary and Bosh felt most of it most of the time. He was solid defensively though and deserves credit for that.
Also, you can't just ignore that Kobe got 3 titles with Shaq. You seem to only want to talk about Kobe winning with Pau, but that isn't what happened to begin with. None of the other elite players in 09 or 10 had great help. When Dirk got it the following year...he swept the same team out of the 2nd round in the playoffs. I'm not even discounting the titles...I'm just saying you have to factor in the competition. It just wasn't the same as playing some of the teams Lebron has in the finals.
4. Yes, Lebron's 13 finals tend to get over-rated. You'll find posts of me saying the exact same thing. Again though...Kobe got carried at times to titles. All I ask for is consistency...
5. That Rockets team is way better than you are giving them credit for. Kobe in place of Harden would have had a far better chance to win than he would have had in place of Lebron. But we aren't talking about replacing Harden...we are talking about replacing Lebron.
6. Meh...this is a weak argument. Demanding that Lebron win 70 games in the regular season so he's not viewed as a dog is the height of the one-sided nature I'm attacking. How about Kobe winning 75 games with Shaq...why the **** didn't that happen?
[QUOTE=warriorfan]20 year old LeBron would have done worse than Kobe if you swapped places with him against that team. You are a low iq clown if you think otherwise.[/QUOTE]
I disagree, but that wasn't my point...as you know...to begin with.
So, I'll let you respond, but I'm going to try to sum up where we are.
You have agreed that Kobe's defense and longevity are not what you initially thought overall.
I have agreed that Kobe was more skilled and that in certain instances would have won in place of Lebron (2011)...
It seems that the real issue comes down to how we value the help/competition of each player when it comes to their team success.
In addition, it seems like you want no impact stats to be used...while I'd want to quantify some of this.
So, the question for you essentially is...given that you've agreed about the longevity...was Kobe's peak so much demonstrably higher than Lebron's that it negates Lebron having superior longevity/durability.
I hope you can see why this isn't a real issue for me. Lebron was better based on the best objective measures we have, he was more durable and has better longevity, and I think at his peak he was a better player.
That is why it is open and shut for me.
[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/RCTM7q4/Capture1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/8mY3F2m/Capture.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=DMAVS41][IMG]https://i.ibb.co/RCTM7q4/Capture1.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I remember OP saying that Luka could "shoot the lights out" sometime within the last 10 days, even though Luka is only like a 33% 3 point shooter. Yet now he says Luka can't shoot midrange shots.
Strange.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41][IMG]https://i.ibb.co/RCTM7q4/Capture1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/8mY3F2m/Capture.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I know you want to ignore all objective measures, but we all have our biases and preferences...
In this case, you have a clear bias you have admitted to because of Kobe's play mirroring Jordan.
The problem is though, he wasn't Jordan.
[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/qCTdqG8/JJ.jpg[/IMG]
Is it really a shock that Jordan's graph looks like that? Not to me, not to you. Same methodology.
I'm just saying...stuff like this would give me pause if I was on your side of the debate.
[QUOTE=3ball]Why did he need goat PG's to even have a GOOD team, let alone a great team?
how can he be better than Magic, MJ, Bird and others when he needed so much more help, to even have a GOOD team, let alone great team?
Magic had 1 seeds without Kareem... MJ had championship teams with zero bigs worth anything.. Rookie Bird turned a lottery team into 60-win juggernaut.. Kobe won with Bosh as his sidekick (i mean pau)
how can he be better than these guys if he needed far more help and otherwise lost his ass in what many call a weak era (70's)?..
He was essentially the biggest stat-padder of all-time in the 70's - his sky-hook game was suboptimal and couldn't win shit - just like AD - until he landed alongside a goat PG - just like AD
But who cares about the facts right?.. Let's go with the groupthink that infact makes no sense.. :applause:.. :facepalm:[/QUOTE]
Kareem won 56 game
:rolleyes: