"Pippen was the best player in the world in 93, 94, 95" - Dennis Rodman

[QUOTE=Smoke117;13974228]People forget how good he was during the first 2/3rds of the 96 season before injuries started piling up. He refused to sit, though, as they were going for the record. He was really beat up in the 96 playoffs, but ironically, led the entire playoffs in BPM. With someone like Pippen you can't just look at individual stats. He just made his teammates better and made the game easier for them and you can't qualify that in something like individual scoring. He has one of the greatest BBIQ's ever and just understood the game so well. There are plenty of players who scored a ton of points, but whose actual impact didn't come close to his. Someone like Carmelo Anthony comes to mind there. As far as being the best player... I'd say you can easily make a case for Kevin Garnett being the best player in 2004. He led the league in bpm, vorp, winshares, per and had a ridiculous 20.2 on/off. I'm curious as to who you think was better than him that season? He was super dominant that season and most of the guys in discussion in the early 2000s didn't have great seasons compared to what they had before.[/QUOTE]

Good post. Pippen is a great test for people who look only at stats (usually only scoring). A player like him does a lot of things that don't show up in stats, and he scarified stats for the team. Carmelo is a good example for a guy who looks better on paper than on the court. I'll also nominate Kyrie, even though he isn't an elite scorer like Carmelo was. Look at all the hype he gets for being flashy but when has he ever been a MVP candidate? First team all-NBA? Yet I bet all the guys saying Pippen was a bum would say Kyrie is awesome.

People sleep on that 96' season. That was, until he got hurt, probably when he was closest to MJ.

[QUOTE]Oh and in that Knicks series Ewing was easily the best player and Pip wasn't even the best Chicago Bull of the series. He was outplayed by Horace Grant[/QUOTE]

This is a false statement but then again this guy says Kevin Johnson was better than Pippen.

Ewing did outplay Pippen in the 94' series--but in 93' it was Pippen who was better.

One thing to note, the anti-Pippen crowd isn't giving you specific years. They are listing a bunch of names and saying "Barkley!" "Drexler!" as if players are the same each year. To be fair, a lot of them are MJ stans who didn't watch back then so they don't know those players' histories.

It is interesting MJ stans are ripping Pippen. He is considered the second best perimeter player of that era. If Pippen is a bum (Iggy!), what does that say about MJ's era? This scrub was actually a MVP candidate?

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;13974236]One of the best, sure. Better than Olajuwon? Better than Shaq? Nonsense.[/QUOTE]

You could argue 94' over Shaq based on experience, leadership, etc. but not after that. The Barkley, Drexler, Payton, etc. stuff is weird, though. No one was saying Payton was a superstar in 94' and the other two weren't their previous MVP caliber selves after injuries.

[QUOTE]Hakeem was easily the best player in that span and it's not close. It's a 3 year run only matched by MJ and Shaq[/QUOTE]

It was close. Hakeem vs. David Robinson was a close debate during those two years (in 93' MJ clearly was the best player and Barkley had a strong case for #2 along with Hakeem).

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13974486]Good post. Pippen is a great test for people who look only at stats (usually only scoring). A player like him does a lot of things that don't show up in stats, and he scarified stats for the team. Carmelo is a good example for a guy who looks better on paper than on the court. I'll also nominate Kyrie, even though he isn't an elite scorer like Carmelo was. Look at all the hype he gets for being flashy but when has he ever been a MVP candidate? First team all-NBA? Yet I bet all the guys saying Pippen was a bum would say Kyrie is awesome.

People sleep on that 96' season. That was, until he got hurt, probably when he was closest to MJ.



This is a false statement but then again this guy says Kevin Johnson was better than Pippen.

Ewing did outplay Pippen in the 94' series--but in 93' it was Pippen who was better.

One thing to note, the anti-Pippen crowd isn't giving you specific years. They are listing a bunch of names and saying "Barkley!" "Drexler!" as if players are the same each year. To be fair, a lot of them are MJ stans who didn't watch back then so they don't know those players' histories.[/QUOTE]

HIGH IQ, nice post

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13974486]Good post. Pippen is a great test for people who look only at stats (usually only scoring). A player like him does a lot of things that don't show up in stats, and he scarified stats for the team. Carmelo is a good example for a guy who looks better on paper than on the court. I'll also nominate Kyrie, even though he isn't an elite scorer like Carmelo was. Look at all the hype he gets for being flashy but when has he ever been a MVP candidate? First team all-NBA? Yet I bet all the guys saying Pippen was a bum would say Kyrie is awesome.

People sleep on that 96' season. That was, until he got hurt, probably when he was closest to MJ.



This is a false statement but then again this guy says Kevin Johnson was better than Pippen.

Ewing did outplay Pippen in the 94' series--but in 93' it was Pippen who was better.

One thing to note, the anti-Pippen crowd isn't giving you specific years. They are listing a bunch of names and saying "Barkley!" "Drexler!" as if players are the same each year. To be fair, a lot of them are MJ stans who didn't watch back then so they don't know those players' histories.[/QUOTE] What happened to Barkley in the mid 90s? Injuries? I never watched the NBA in the 90s. I am very curious and I want to expand my basketball knowledge.

[QUOTE=TheCorporation;13974490]HIGH IQ, nice post[/QUOTE]

:cheers:

[QUOTE]What happened to Barkley in the mid 90s? Injuries? I never watched the NBA in the 90s. I am very curious and I want to expand my basketball knowledge.[/QUOTE]

Back problems mainly but he also had knee, elbow, groin, and hamstring issues that season. Mid-season he injured his tendon and missed 17 games. Barkley even talked about retiring because his back issues during the 94' season. Since he got hurt around the all-star break, we can use the ASG splits to see the impact:

Barkley pre-ASG in 94': 24/12/5 on 53%
Barkley post-ASG in 94': 20/11/4 on on 47%
Barkley 93' (MVP): 26/12/5 on 52%

So he basically started out the season in his MVP-caliber form but fell off considerably after that. He was still a top 10 player but he was never top 5 again after 93'. Some of this was also aging--he turned 30 in 94'--so he was going to decline thereafter anyway but it is pretty clear Barkley in 94' wasn't the 93' or 90'' Barkley the anti-Pippen crowd wants you to think of.

[QUOTE=Turbo Slayer;13974491]What happened to Barkley in the mid 90s? Injuries? I never watched the NBA in the 90s. I am very curious and I want to expand my basketball knowledge.[/QUOTE]

Google?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13974502]:cheers:



Back problems mainly but he also had knee, elbow, groin, and hamstring issues that season. Mid-season he injured his tendon and missed 17 games. Barkley even talked about retiring because his back issues during the 94' season. Since he got hurt around the all-star break, we can use the ASG splits to see the impact:

Barkley pre-ASG in 94': 24/12/5 on 53%
Barkley post-ASG in 94': 20/11/4 on on 47%
Barkley 93' (MVP): 26/12/5 on 52%

So he basically started out the season in his MVP-caliber form but fell off considerably after that. He was still a top 10 player but he was never top 5 again after 93'. Some of this was also aging--he turned 30 in 94'--so he was going to decline thereafter anyway but it is pretty clear Barkley in 94' wasn't the 93' or 90'' Barkley the anti-Pippen crowd wants you to think of.[/QUOTE] Thanks. Putting this in my Google doc.

[QUOTE=Turbo Slayer;13974506]Thanks. Putting this in my Google doc.[/QUOTE]

Cool. :cheers:

Round_Mound could probably give you more detail as Barkley is his guy.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13973974]People conflate 93' Barkley with 94' Barkley. He got hurt and his production went down in the second half and he was never again the Barkley we saw before that. Barkley, Malone, Pippen all play the same position so we can get an idea how they were perceived via all-NBA voting. Pippen and Malone were the first team guys and Pippen finished ahead of Malone in all-NBA 2 of 3 years from 1994-1996.[/quote]

They do that because of Barkley's postseason. In 10 games, dude averaged 28/13/5 on ~50/35/74 splits. Ya he may not have moved as well or was as fluid. Statistically though? He was on his MVP level. Pippen was better in the regular-season but Barkley coasted with injuries until the playoffs. And then seized control.

Pre 1995, I doubt any version of 90s Barkley would have led that choke vs Houston. He was spent on offense and it leaked into 96. Where he REALLY fell off.

[quote]In 95' his scoring went down because MJ came back and his stats took a hit across the board. He was scoring the same as 94' before MJ. He was top 20 in rebounding as a SF.[/quote]

That's fair. But even then he unperformed in the 95 playoffs (19ppg on 44% shooting).

I don't blame Mike for Pippen laying bricks. If Scottie played like he did the year earlier, even with lower efficiency, Chicago probably goes all the way. They needed more scoring imo. That and rebounding. Lowkey I think that version of Jordan gets underrated. While 'rusty' he still averaged 30 on 48%FG :oldlol:

[quote]But hey we are at least having a reasonable debate in the real world, not comparing Pippen to Fisher, Mo Wiliams, or James Jones. :oldlol:[/quote]

Yup.

The logic of some of these posters is maddening. So Pippen is a "scrub" because he didnt take a team to a Championship right? But a player like Barkley isnt a scrub even though he never led a team to a Championship? Simply because he scored more? The fact is that many of these great scorers were atrocious on defense. If Barkey was any kind of a defender, Hed have a ring.

I mean what are we arguing here? Pick a side and stick to it. You cant penalize Pippen by saying he didn't win without Jordan simply because he didnt score 25 PPG on 50% shooting. And say players like Barkley and Carmello Anthony were more talented and better when they didnt lead a team to a title either. Because they were shitty defenders.

Pippens impact on the game was just as if not more as Charles Barkley or a Carmelo Anthony. Because of his defense.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;13974706]The logic of some of these posters is maddening. So Pippen is a "scrub" because he didnt take a team to a Championship right? But a player like Barkley isnt a scrub even though he never led a team to a Championship? Simply because he scored more? The fact is that many of these great scorers were atrocious on defense. If Barkey was any kind of a defender, Hed have a ring.[/quote]

Whose calling Pippen a scrub though?

[quote]I mean what are we arguing here? Pick a side and stick to it. You cant penalize Pippen by saying he didn't win without Jordan simply because he didnt score 25 PPG on 50% shooting. And say players like Barkley and Carmello Anthony were more talented and better when they didnt lead a team to a title either. Because they were shitty defenders.[/quote]

I don't know who you're directing this at, but I can do ALL of that. And keep doing it because history is on my side.

Magic didn't play defense. Barkley wasn't the best defender and neither is Curry. Hell, Bill Russell wasn't the best offensive player. They're still revered though. And by all accounts carried major impact, both in numbers and results.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13974486]



This is a false statement but then again this guy says Kevin Johnson was better than Pippen.

Ewing did outplay Pippen in the 94' series--but in 93' it was Pippen who was better.

[/QUOTE]

Two things, Kevin Johnson was not better than Pippen, I know you didn't say it. But you did say Patrick Ewing was better than Pippen in 1993. No he wasn't. Not in the regular season and not in the post-season. Pippen wasn't a scrub, but this almost cult-like status he's being elevated to is out of control. I get it, the Branstans are doing it to elevate Lebron and the MJstans are knocking Pippen to elevate Jordan. What it's doing is lifting Pippen to a Jim Morrison type of cult-following. People nit-pick about every little thing players do to knock them down or elevate them. Why don't you all take a look at his first 3 post-season appearances and game 7 of his 4th. I remember them. He was horrible. If those years were on Jordan's resume you guys would have a field day. Pipp has a lot of warts on his resume you guys are turning a blind eye.

[QUOTE=RogueBorg;13974735]Two things, Kevin Johnson was not better than Pippen, I know you didn't say it. But you did say Patrick Ewing was better than Pippen in 1993. No he wasn't. Not in the regular season and not in the post-season. Pippen wasn't a scrub, but this almost cult-like status he's being elevated to is out of control. I get it, the Branstans are doing it to elevate Lebron and the MJstans are knocking Pippen to elevate Jordan. What it's doing is lifting Pippen to a Jim Morrison type of cult-following. People nit-pick about every little thing players do to knock them down or elevate them. Why don't you all take a look at his first 3 post-season appearances and game 7 of his 4th. I remember them. He was horrible. If those years were on Jordan's resume you guys would have a field day. Pipp has a lot of warts on his resume you guys are turning a blind eye.[/QUOTE]

People were bashing Pip waaaayyyyy before Lebron James came on the scene. The argument has stemmed because Jordan stans paint this narrative that Jordan won with little help from his team. Or in spite of his teammates. Like what you just did. Hence the 1-9 reference.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy;13974724]Whose calling Pippen a scrub though?



I don't know who you're directing this at, but I can do ALL of that. And keep doing it because history is on my side.

Magic didn't play defense. Barkley wasn't the best defender and neither is Curry. Hell, Bill Russell wasn't the best offensive player. They're still revered though. And by all accounts carried major impact, both in numbers and results.[/QUOTE]

Magic led teams to Championship wins. So has Curry. I brought up guys that were great offensively and didnt get it done. But are considered better than Pippen.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;13974763]Magic [B]led teams[/B] to Championship wins. So has Curry. I brought up guys that were great offensively and didnt get it done. But are considered better than Pippen.[/QUOTE]

Neither has Pippen dude.

Giving him that kind of credit is wacky.