1994 Pippen should have been mvp

[QUOTE=RRR3;14028148]Dwight "held" LeBron to 38.5 PPG on 59.1 TS%, so it's a weird stance to act like his defense was affecting LeBron in that series. Obviously there were other factors at play. Maybe Ewing would be able to hold LeBron to 35 PPG...[/QUOTE]

To be fair, Dwight played lockdown defense on LeBron. LeBron couldn't get past Dwight. Remember Dwight picking LeBron up at half court and shadowing him?

[QUOTE]Outplayed by Rik Smits twice in a playoff series but he's better than LeBron James [/QUOTE]

Including in a series where his team committed the cardinal sin: winning 55 games and losing in 7 in the ECSF. Except he was actually outplayed by his match up (Pippen's match up went 8/3 or something) and missed the series winning finger roll.

[QUOTE]94-97 Pippen was the only player unanimiously chosen first team all defense by every single coach. The ONLY player chosen first team all defense BY EVERY OPPOSING COACH. No other player has ever had that accolade. He was even voted first team all defensive team despite only playing half the season in 98, even. lol[/QUOTE]

:applause:

Let's recap some of the bad faith arguments Pippen haters/MJ stans advanced:

*Playoff efficiency is king, therefore Pippen must suck but less efficient players like Robinson and Ewing (despite being centers) are better than him. Efficiency is irrelevant to them. It only counts for Pippen.
*Pippen can't be MVP because his team lost in the 2nd round--but Robinson and Shaq can be despite losing in the first round to lower seeds (Shaq actually swept). Robinson choking his way from 30 PPG on 58% TS to 20 PPG on 47%? Doesn't matter. Playoff results only count for Pippen. Why did he go from 22 PPG on 54% TS to 23 PPG on 52% TS in the playoffs?
*Pippen can't be MVP because of the Bulls' offense, even though it was better than the Rockets and Knicks' offense. Offense doesn't count for Hakeem and Ewing, only Pippen.
*Ewing>Pippen because the Knicks with a full deck won 57 games and the Bulls losing MJ won 55. The Knicks losing 3 games losing nobody>the Bulls declining 2 games losing the guy all these posters swear is GOAT at his peak.
*Pippen can't be MVP because the Bulls lost their division, but Robinson and Shaq can be despite losing theirs.
*Shawn Kemp, the second option on his team, deserved more MVP votes than Pippen.
*Ewing was MVP because he anchored the #1 defense--but the quality of that defense is irrelevant to Pippen's ECSF. Why didn't Pippen match MJ's great efficiency against the Knicks the previous year (spoiler: he was more efficient)?
*Karl Malone, on the 5th seed, deserved it over Pippen. 53 wins adding Hornacek>55 wins losing MJ.
*55 wins isn't enough to be MVP, but 56 because your team added Rodman or even 50 adding Penny is enough for other players. Or 57 or 58. Just don't give me "55."
*Because the Bulls sucked without Pippen and that reduced their win total, that is strong evidence Pippen was not valuable.
*Because the Bulls' offense sucked without Pippen and that reduced their season long offensive rank (still better than NY and HOU :lol ), that is evidence of Pippen not being valuable.


Did I miss any? These are the flat out bad faith arguments. I'm not even getting to the bad ones, like Pippen was a scrub but somehow was #1 in all-NBA and crushing prime Malone in first team forward voting.

It's just so eh how this conversation goes. Just stats being thrown at each other. No one talks basketball.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14028165]I still can't believe Rik friggin' Smits shat on prime Ewing in two different series :roll:[/QUOTE]

I didn't include 1998 because Ewing was past his prime but here is what happened:

Ewing 14/8/1 on 41% TS
Smits 17/6/1 on on 51% TS

Smits had his number.

Ewing played Parish in 88':

Parish 14/12/1 47% TS
Ewing 19/13/3 56% TS

Ewing outplayed him but was outscored by Gerald Wilkins and Johhny Newman on his own team.

Forgot this 1993 series against rookie Mourning:

Ewing 26/11/3 52% TS
Mourning 24/10/2 52% TS

Almost a wash, despite Mourning being a rookie and Ewing in his prime.

Ewing never faced Shaq, Daughtery, or Robinson in the playoffs.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028275]I didn't include 1998 because Ewing was past his prime but here is what happened:

Ewing 14/8/1 on [B]41% TS[/B]
Smits 17/6/1 on on 51% TS

Smits had his number.

Ewing played Parish in 88':

Parish 14/12/1 47% TS
Ewing 19/13/3 56% TS

Ewing outplayed him but was outscored by Gerald Wilkins and Johhny Newman on his own team.

Forgot this 1993 series against rookie Mourning:

Ewing 26/11/3 52% TS
Mourning 24/10/2 52% TS

Basically a wash, despite Mourning being a rookie and Ewing in his prime.

Ewing never faced Shaq, Daughtery, or Robinson in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
Jesus Christ. When the playoffs rolled around, he turned into PatBRICK Ewing.

They like to talk efficiency but bizarrely compare his to a SF (for one series against what they hail as a ATG defenses in the next post). Here are apples to apples, prime versus prime comparisons with Smits, Daughtery being added to the party for TS (RS efficiency in parentheses). These are the best offensive centers of the 90's:

[U]By eFG% (adjusts for 3’s being worth more)[/U]

Ewing 88’-97’: 48.3% (51.6%)
Hakeem 86’-97’: 53.8% (51.5%)
Robinson 90’-98’: 48.1% (52.5%)
Shaq 94’-05’: 56.2% (58.0%)
Mourning 94’-00’: 49.4% (53.0%)


[U]By TS%[/U]

Ewing 88’-97’: 52.8% (56.3%)
Robinson 90’-98’: 54.9% (59.0%)
Shaq 94’-05’: 56.7% (58.4%)
Mourning 94’-00’: 54.8% (58.7%)
Hakeem 86’-97’: 57.8% (55.8%)
Smits 94'-99': 55.5% (55.5%)
Daughtery 88'-94': 58.8% (59.2%)

If I am a Ewing partisan (even if on behalf of MJ), I don't plant my flag on an argument over playoff efficiency...in TS, he is 2% behind his closest comp and 6% behind the top of the class.

I don't feel like looking up Smits' or Daughtery's eFG% but anyone is free to do so. It seems TS % is the coin of realm here.

Yeah that's pretty sad.

98 playoffs? Is that the one after Ewing got shoved to the floor by Ervin Johnson and messed up his wrist, missing the last 56 games, the entire 1st round series, and even Game 1 against Smits and the Pacers?

That's a series where Patrick choked?

RRR3; isn't a great thing to laugh alongside a guy as useless as that. Talk about a lack of context.

[QUOTE]Talk about a lack of context.[/QUOTE]

Which your own post excludes. :lol

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock][B]I didn't include 1998 because Ewing was past his prime[/B] but here is what happened[/QUOTE]

Don't get the faux holier than thou stance. We have for weeks heard Ewing partisans (MJ stans cloaked as Ewing sympathizers but whatever) invoke playoff efficiency over one series against a perimeter player. A key plank of the argument for Ewing>Pippen is precisely that--in this very thread.

What's the matter? People actually fact checking Ewing's now? Where was your pearl clutching for those dozens of posts from a range of posters for weeks? There can't be one set of rules for Pippen, and free passes for every other contemporary of his.

This is the play: when the fact checking shows up, shut down the debate. :rolleyes:

There's no excuse for a 41% TS.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14028296]There's no excuse for a 41% TS.[/QUOTE]

So then what it does it say when Pippen got beat by this player head to head and outplayed in that series head to head?

All this from this thread alone, which revolves entirely around efficiency in one series against what--by their own glowing admission--was the #1 defense.

[QUOTE]got locked down and knocked out of the playoffs by Knicks in second round[/QUOTE]

Response to this:

[QUOTE]Ether.[/QUOTE]

Another response:

[QUOTE]I love Pip but this post will be ignored by the MJ haters.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Pippen can never win MVP because he's not a dynamic enough of a scorer and he's not efficient enough[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]He didn't even score over 25 points in the second round. Not even once, and he was extremely inefficient.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]while outplaying Pippen head-to-head in their playoff round where Ewing's team beat Pippen's en route to the NBA Finals.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]On top of that Ewing beat Pippen head to head in the playoffs while outplaying him in that series[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]I'd rather be in the Finals than bounced in the 2nd round, maybe if Scottie was actually in fact a better player than Ewing he would have outplayed Ewing[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]His team had a better record, beat Pippen's team head to head[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Patrick Ewing was better than Scottie Pippen that year, beat him in the playoffs while outplaying him soundly[/QUOTE]

I'm happy to adapt to the rules of engagement but we can't have one set of rules for one player and another for every other player in history...

[QUOTE=Soundwave;14028303]So then what it does it say when [B]Pippen got beat by this player head to head[/B] and outplayed in that series head to head?[/QUOTE]

Pippen didn't play center. Watch some 90's basketball kids. He was a SF. An old Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley were Ewing's match ups (congratulations, he could outplay them. What happened against real competition?). Pippen played Charles Smith (who was 8/3 or something).

By your own logic, Smits>Ewing since he routinely outplayed Ewing head-to-head (for real head-to-head, not Fantasy Island H2H). Rookie Mourning=93' Ewing. Etc.

What is the next #badfaith goal post move?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028307]Pippen didn't play center. Watch some 90's basketball kids.

By your own logic, Smits>Ewing. Rookie Mourning=93' Ewing. Etc.[/QUOTE]

Pippen needed to play center to not get outplayed by Ewing and beaten by him the playoffs?

He also got outplayed by Horace Grant the next year in the 95 playoffs and played pretty close to even by a 2nd year Penny Hardaway.

You want to claim to be MVP, you should not be getting beat by the league's 5th best player one year and then equalled/bettered by two non-top 10 players the next season in your peak prime years.

That's not supposed to happen to MVP players. MVP players should dominate that level of competition.

Paging Whoa. See, now this invites scrutiny of Ewing's match ups. Decimated by Hakeem. Outplayed routinely by Rik freaking Smits. Matched by Mourning as a rookie. Contained by Parish.

:lol Grant outplayed Pippen now. Confusing TP? The previous TP was Penny.

[QUOTE]That's not supposed to happen to MVP players. MVP players should dominate that level of competition.[/QUOTE]

This is laughable. Use your own logic on other players.

Horace Grant did outplay Pippen in the Bulls-Magic 1995 playoff series. That doesn't happen to MVP caliber players.

If you want to laugh at Ewing for "sucking", sure OK, you realize that makes you look stupid when Ewing was the one who beat Pippen head to head and out played him when they went mano-e-mano in the 1994 playoffs.

That's not supposed to happen if Pippen was in fact a better player.

Grant roasted Kukoc. Pippen held him in check. These clowns blaming Pippen. :lol

[U]1994 1st Round[/U]

Robinson 20/10/4 47% TS (down from 30/11/5 58% in the RS.)

Spurs lose 3-1 to a lower seed.

[U]1994 Finals[/U]

Ewing 19/12/2 39% TS

Ewing outplayed by Derek Harper, John Starks, and crushed by Hakeem.

[U]1991 Vs. Bulls[/U]

Ewing 17/10/2 on 47% TS

Ewing has a game score of 8.9. Pippen 17.7, Grant 10.9, Armstrong 10.8, Jordan 26.1. Kiki Vandewedhe outscores Ewing on 59% TS.

I'm not even going to bother continuing. You saw the Smits, Mourning info. Robinson has many skeletons in the closet.

Jordan fans still can't formulate an honest, consistent argument. :lol

[QUOTE] Ewing was the one who beat Pippen head to head [/QUOTE]

On Fantasy Island. In the real world he played Cartwright and Luc Longley. :oldlol: