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MJ stans will tell us how great Kyrie Irving is for making 2 all-NBA teams in 9 seasons and then tell us Pippen was [I]not[/I] elite for being good enough to make all-NBA when missing half the season. :lol
Cut the crap. You have to play at an elite level to make all-NBA when you missed half the season. If Pippen played the full season he easily would have been all-NBA 2nd team based on his level of play, even if he declined from 97'. You know it.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166468]MJ stans will tell us how great Kyrie Irving is for making 2 all-NBA teams in 9 seasons and then tell us Pippen was [I]not[/I] elite for being good enough to make all-NBA when missing half the season. :lol
Cut the crap. You have to play at an elite level to make all-NBA when you missed half the season. If Pippen played the full season he easily would have been all-NBA 2nd team based on his level of play, even if he declined from 97'. You know it.
Pippen 97': 20/7/6 5.7 BPM (7th in the NBA)
Pippen 98': 19/5/6 5.0 BPM (8th in the NBA)[/QUOTE]
Its obviously relative dude. Pip was definitely still a great player. Use the word elite if you like but he definitely wasn't at his best come the 98 playoffs. Multiple people including pip has said as much. 16/6 on 41% isnt a superstar in any era.
He wasn't elite but made all-NBA in half a season (which implies he had to be a clear cut top 10 player--if you are top 15 and play half a season you won't make it). That doesn't make any sense--unless all those people got it wrong and MJ stans 22 years later are right.
Pippen's scoring average in 98' (19) was basically the same as MJ fan favorite Miller's, Ray Allen's, Payton, Tim Hardaway, KG, and Drexler. All of the were within 1 PPG, Kemp was a few ticks behind them. Hill scored only 2 PPG more.
The Bulls' pace was 12% slower than the average team today. That's 21.5 PPG if you adjust for average pace, not even factoring easier rules, etc. You make it sound like he was Ben Wallace.
Re playoffs, Pippen dominated defensively--even though no MJ fan will credit him for that. People can Google that or watch the games on YouTube. His scoring was inconsistent in the playoffs--that is where his decline was more evident. I can admit that. I'm just saying, and all-NBA voters agreed, he was playing at a clear cut top 10 level still. He just was not a top 5 caliber player like he had been in the previous seasons.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166568]He wasn't elite but made all-NBA in half a season (which implies he had to be a clear cut top 10 player--if you are top 15 and play half a season you won't make it). That doesn't make any sense--unless all those people got it wrong and MJ stans 22 years later are right.
Pippen's scoring average in 98' (19) was basically the same as MJ fan favorite Miller's, Ray Allen's, Payton, Tim Hardaway, KG, and Drexler. All of the were within 1 PPG, Kemp was a few ticks behind them. Hill scored only 2 PPG more.
The Bulls' pace was 12% slower than the average team today. That's 21.5 PPG if you adjust for average pace, not even factoring easier rules, etc. You make it sound like he was Ben Wallace.
Re playoffs, Pippen dominated defensively--even though no MJ fan will credit him for that. People can Google that or watch the games on YouTube. His scoring was inconsistent in the playoffs--that is where his decline was more evident. I can admit that. I'm just saying, and all-NBA voters agreed, he was playing at a clear cut top 10 level still. He just was not a top 5 caliber player like he had been in the previous seasons.[/QUOTE]
If AD scored like Pippen, the Lakers would lose in the 1st round, and AD is a better defender than pippen
So that proves the defense argument is false and pippen's anemic offense made him weak - he was an Iggy-level player, or maybe a lesser Paul George
the numbers speak for themselves.. only MJ routinely beat top teams with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166568]He wasn't elite but made all-NBA in half a season (which implies he had to be a clear cut top 10 player--if you are top 15 and play half a season you won't make it). That doesn't make any sense--unless all those people got it wrong and MJ stans 22 years later are right.
Pippen's scoring average in 98' (19) was basically the same as MJ fan favorite Miller's, Ray Allen's, Payton, Tim Hardaway, KG, and Drexler. All of the were within 1 PPG, Kemp was a few ticks behind them. Hill scored only 2 PPG more.
The Bulls' pace was 12% slower than the average team today. That's 21.5 PPG if you adjust for average pace, not even factoring easier rules, etc. You make it sound like he was Ben Wallace.
Re playoffs, Pippen dominated defensively--even though no MJ fan will credit him for that. People can Google that or watch the games on YouTube. His scoring was inconsistent in the playoffs--that is where his decline was more evident. I can admit that. I'm just saying, and all-NBA voters agreed, he was playing at a clear cut top 10 level still. He just was not a top 5 caliber player like he had been in the previous seasons.[/QUOTE]
I think you underestimate Phil's role in pips individual success. If mj needed pip then pip needed phil just as much. Pip never made an all star without phil. He couldn't even score 15 points without phil.
And pip was a great defender but his defense is severely overrated by bron stans. Its not like he had the impact of a drob or any great center. He didn't dominate defensively. He was defensively a huge part of tge bulls defense though but it was a collective effort. Again you would never say anyone was a superstar who scored 16/6/7 on mediocre efficiency. Even if they were a great defender. So why pip?
He is widely considered the GOAT perimeter defender. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166710]He is widely considered the GOAT perimeter defender. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't disagree with that but perimeter defenders dont impact the game defensively like centers do. This is also widely known. So yeah he's a great defender but his impact isnt enough to make up for his offensive struggles in some of his finals. Even a center who has more of a defensive impact wouldn't be considered a superstar with 16/7/6. Especially if he was on one if brons teams:facepalm
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166710]He is widely considered the GOAT perimeter defender. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
I can only imagine what bron stans would say about kawhi if he put up 16/7/6 on 42% shooting. They'd have a field day.
[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14166726]I can only imagine what bron stans would say about kawhi if he put up 16/7/6 on 42% shooting. They'd have a field day.[/QUOTE]
Hard to put up good scoring stats when your teammate is taking 25-30 shots per game
Jordan ball didn't allow his teammates to get going, and it's reflected in the stats
[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14166726]I can only imagine what bron stans would say about kawhi if he put up 16/7/6 on 42% shooting. They'd have a field day.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14166732]Hard to put up good scoring stats when your teammate is taking 25-30 shots per game
Jordan ball didn't allow his teammates to get going, and it's reflected in the stats[/QUOTE]
line em up, shoot em down
2 ez for the bois
[img]https://media.giphy.com/media/hSi4jPFdeoEed62SBS/giphy.gif[/img]
Anyone can look up what people were saying at the time. Google "Pippen 1998 Finals MVP." SouBeachTalents did that and here is some of what he found. Do you trust these reporters, coaches, and players in real time or MJ stans with an obvious agenda 22 years later? :lol
[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937[/URL]
These are the same people who defend Stockton scoring 9.7 PPG. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14166732]Hard to put up good scoring stats when your teammate is taking 25-30 shots per game
Jordan ball didn't allow his teammates to get going, and it's reflected in the stats[/QUOTE]
Pip literally scored 2 more points a game in his prime when mj left so thats bs.
And mj lead 3 of the best offenses ever. The triangle had way more on and off ball movement than offenses bron plays in. Wtf are talking about:facepalm
The Bulls' offense was top 10 w/out MJ but not w/out Pippen. Inconvenient truth. :pimp:
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166742]Anyone can look up what people were saying at the time. Google "Pippen 1998 Finals MVP." SouBeachTalents did that and here is some of what he found. Do you trust these reporters, coaches, and players in real time or MJ stans with an obvious agenda 22 years later? :lol
[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937[/URL]
These are the same people who defend Stockton scoring 9.7 PPG. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
And then theres this [url]https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/15/sports/the-nba-finals-pippen-s-pain-pushes-jordan-to-greatest-feat.html[/url]