Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Yeah KJ did make 4 al-2nd teams, but those don't really tel lthe whole story. Hell, Rod Stricklnd made an All-NBA 2nd squad in 97 ot 98 and he wasn't a top
10 player, ever.


KJ was probally a top 10 player in 1990 or very close to it around 11 or 12.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I think that Strickland had a case for being the game's best point guard in 1998. He led the NBA in assists average that season by a wide margin.

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leadersbyseason.htm?stat=apg&lg=n&yr=1997[/url]

I know that All-NBA Teams don't reveal the whole story, because K.J. received the shaft later in his career (finishing behind Latrell Sprewell for a First Team guard slot in 1994, not making it entirely in 1997 when he had a great case for the First Team). Even in 1996, he deserved more consideration. But when K.J. did make it, his statistics supported his case and to the larger point, people did consider him a top-ten player.

Your final analysis about K.J. in the nineties is fair enough.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]I doubt Rod Strickland was around the time where Jordan, Drexler, Magic, Isiah, Stockton, and more were all around their primes/peaks.

There is a huge difference.



I remember you saying Gary Payton is a better 90s PG than Kevin Johnson. I am a huge Gary Payton fan, but I think there is another place you underrate Kevin Johnson. Even though I am a big Payton fan, I'd put KJ over Payton in the 90s anyday.

The problem is, your just underrating KJ a bit.

The 90s PG goes:

Stockton
Kevin Johnson
Gary Payton[/QUOTE]

Yes, I would agree with that, even though I would take K.J. head-to-head against Stockton (for the reasons that I explained earlier) and for peak value. Stockton's durability, however, just cannot be ignored.

[QUOTE]K.J. was also a peer of Isiah Thomas, John Stockton, and even Magic Johnson at times. He certainly wasn't as great as Magic overall, but in 1991, the Sporting News debated whether Magic or K.J. was the better point guard and Charles Barkley later claimed in Sports Illustrated that K.J. was the best point guard in basketball that year.

He was the best point guard in basketball. He was unstoppable.

[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...ey_flashback1/[/url]

In 1989, long before they became teammates, Barkley offered similiar comments to the Washington Post.

Phoenix' Johnson Is Suns' Rising Star; [FINAL Edition]
Chris Cobbs. The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext). Washington, D.C.: May 16, 1989. pg. e.06

Johnson has needed only two pro seasons to establish himself as a legitimate NBA star. Some observers believe he's approaching an elite group, composed of Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley, that deserves consideration for most valuable player. Barkley himself has said that K.J. may be the league's premier point guard.

These viewpoints are supported by empirical evidence. K.J. and Magic are the only two players in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage in the same season, and they each did it twice, with K.J. missing a third such season by .001 on his field goal percentage. Compare their individual and team performance on a yearly basis from 1989-1991.

1989:

Magic Johnson: 22.5 points, 12.8 assists, .509 field goal percentage, 57-25 regular season in Pacific Division, advanced to NBA Finals (beat K.J.'s Suns 4-0 in Western Conference Finals

Kevin Johnson: 20.4 points, 12.2 assists, .505 field goal percentage, 55-27 regular season in Pacific Division , advanced to Western Conference Finals (lost to Magic's Lakers 4-0)

1990:

Magic Johnson: 22.3 points, 11.5 assists, .480 field goal percentage, 63-19 regular season in Pacific Division, advanced to Western Conference Semifinals (lost to K.J.'s Suns 4-1)

Kevin Johnson: 22.5 points, 11.4 assists, .499 field goal percentage, 54-28 regular season in Pacific Division, advanced to Western Conference Finals (beat Magic's Lakers 4-1)

1991:

Magic Johnson: 19.4 points, 12.5 assists, .477 field goal percentage, 58-24 regular season in Pacific Division, advanced to NBA Finals

Kevin Johnson: 22.2 points, 10.1 assists, .516 field goal percentage, 55-27 regular season in Pacific Division, advanced to Western Conference First Round

Now, Magic holds a slight edge based on that information, and obviously he enjoys a large advantage in basketball history. But in the late eighties and early nineties, K.J. was challenging him, playing in his ballpark (they started the 1991 All-Star Game together for the Western Conference), and was a definite rival. Consider the following quotation from L.A. Times sportswriter Randey Harvey from May 1990:

Suns Find a Forum to Show That They Have Come of Age; [Home Edition]
RANDY HARVEY. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 16, 1990. pg. 6

Kevin Johnson is the player that Isiah Thomas is supposed to be, the real Pocket Magic. He even has the right last name.

There is no doubting him now. After he played less than his best in the first two games, the Suns' coaches told him that he was thinking too much, that he was taking only what the Lakers gave him. They told him to take what he wanted.

He was the second-best Johnson on the court Tuesday night, but not by much. While the Lakers' Magic scored 43 points and had seven assists, the Suns' Kevin had 37 points and eight assists.

That excerpt also pretty much answers the question of whether K.J. was a rival of Isiah Thomas. If you need any more evidence, go back and read the L.A. Times article that I posted earlier that compares K.J. and Thomas. If you want any more proof, consider the empirical evidence with an old post of mine:

Actually, in terms of statistical efficacy, it's more like Isiah Thomas was a poor man's Kevin Johnson (more accurately, it's more that Tim Hardaway/Rod Strickland were a poor man's Isiah Thomas/Kevin Johnson). K.J. was much more efficient from the field (a career .493 field goal percentage to Thomas' .452), far more efficient from the foul line (a career .841 free throw percentage to Thomas' .759), and he took much better care of the basketball (3.1 turnovers per game for his career to Thomas' 3.8). K.J.'s career assists-to-turnovers ratio was 2.97:1.00, whereas Thomas' was just 2.46:1.00, and their points and assists averages were about the same. In K.J.'s nine prime seasons (1989-1997), he averaged 19.8 points and 10.0 assists (shooting .497/.839 with 3.3 turnovers); in Thomas' nine prime seasons (1983-1991), he averaged 20.1 points and 9.9 assists (shooting .462/.770 with 3.8 turnovers).

K.J. also proved similarly brilliant in the postseason, and in 1998, the Sporting News named both K.J. and Isiah Thomas as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s (behind Michael Jordan and Clyde Drexler on the First Team, with Gary Payton nowhere in sight). However, because "Zeke" won two rings, he will understandably be remembered more vividly in history. I'll certainly give him credit for twice reaching the top of the mountain, because that's what the game is all about (although as "rikemaru" has pointed out, Thomas enjoyed the team defensive support to compensate for his inefficiencies).

If you want more evidence, consider the following quotation from the Washington Post's Michael Wilbon in 1990.

After Hours, It Was Showtime; [FINAL Edition]
MICHAEL WILBON. The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext). Washington, D.C.: May 17, 1990. pg. d.01

The only point guard in the league better than Kevin Johnson is Magic.

Yes, that would include Isiah Thomas, as well as John Stockton. K.J. went through both Stockton and Magic in 1990 playoffs, and while these quotations don't represent the gospel, neither do MVPs and top-fifty lists that are determined by the same types of people offering these quotations. You can't choose to believe these people in some cases but not in others. Likewise, K.J. was the only guard to make the All-NBA Second Team each year from 1989-1991, while Magic and Jordan possessed a joint stranglehold on the First Team. Isiah Thomas last made any All-NBA Team in 1987, and K.J. finished higher than Stockton (Third Team) in 1991. The same writers who vote for MVPs and top-fifty lists also vote for All-NBA Teams, so if you're going to give yourself over to their supposedly holy judgment, then you must do so in this case as well and recognize that K.J. was very much a rival of Thomas and Stockton and that for awhile, many people considered him better than them.

Of course, I form my own conclusions irrespective of media analysis, and the fact that K.J. averaged 31 points and 11 assists (shooting 51% from the field) versus Stockton over a 14-game regular season stretch from 1989-1993 as the Suns went 10-4 versus the Jazz tells me that K.J. tended to dominate Stockton head-to-head and was very much a rival.

Obviously, I've proven that K.J. was as much a rival of Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, and John Stockton as he was a rival of Tim Hardaway and Chris Mullin. These groupings are far more fluid than your rigid classifications allow for, especially since at times, some people justifiably considered K.J. superior to Thomas and Stockton and wondered just how close he was to Magic, and if he might not have evern surpassed him.

All-NBA Teams aren't everything, and K.J. would be snubbed by them later in his career. However, that tells you that MVPs and top-fifty lists should be treated with the exact same grains of salt. Instead of letting awards and the bias of other individuals determine your thinking, the analyst should analyse objectively based on one's own interpretation and the available empirical evidence.[/QUOTE]

Let me see if I understand...because someone somewhere believed it I should consider it a widespread opinion? Or important? SI ranked Terrell Brandon as the best point in the league over Kidd and Payton at one point. just last year there were huge discussions on if Arenas was better than Kobe or not. Shaq has said AI is one of the 5 greatest players of all time. Kareem said Earl the goat was the best player he ever saw. Wilt chamberlain ranked harlem globetrotter teammate Meadowlark Lemon as a starter on his all time team with Michael Jordan as the 6th man. Barkley said Mchale was the best player he ever played against yet I notice people dont rank him over Malone and Duncan. Bird said Dennis Johnson was the best player he ever played with yet it seems most give Mchale and Parish more credit. Magic Johnson said Michael Ray Richardson was the best player he ever played against at one point in the 80s.

Point? anyone dedicated enough to find articles from years past or looking just to find someone propping a guy up is probably gonna get a lot of crazy things in the process. The mere fact that someone says something doesnt make it true or even credible. Hell it doesnt even always mean they believe it since so many people will later contradict themselves.

Some old article where a reporter makes a statement is of no importance to me. I didnt mention the players, media, and coaches votes to say they are infallible. I mentioned them because you quoted some of the people who voted on the top 50 list so I mentioned the list to show that it doesnt seem many of those types did consider Kevin so good.

You clearly have a thing with Kevin Johnson and probably articles saved in some little folder for the express purpose of defending or propping him up at every chance. Those types who go to those lengths just dont change theirs minds or begin to see things the way the rest of the world do. So I have no intention of changing your opinion(or belief that I could).

But quotes just dont do much. Any great player has people spouting hyperboles and media members writing articles. Because you have a KJ thing and therefore keep track of it doesnt mean hes the only one it exists for.

Common sense it all it takes to tell Magic was flat better than Kevin Johnson and that Isiah historically is on another level. As I said earlier it takes too many conflicting points to put him over this level of guys or even equal to them.

The quotes just dont matter much. making my Tim Hardaway video a while back an old NBA action episode had similar comments about him. Magic calling him unstoppable, Isiah talking about how great he is, Don Nelson comparing him to super heroes, and all that. Its what people do when great players come up.....exaggerate.

If someone in 15 years posts articles including the greatest praise ever lavished upon Tracy Mcgrady, Chris Webber, and Gilbert Arenas im sure people would oooo and aaah if they were the types to be impressed by such things. Ato ne time or another ive seen Tmac=Jordan articles, Webber>Duncan articles, and Arenas>Kobes ones too.

Doesnt make them accurate nor doesnt it mean the majority of the fanbase believed it at the time. Just means someone might.

I dont care what Michael Wilbon thinks on Isiah/KJ more than what he thought on Wade/Duncan(he ranked Wade as the best player in the league for some time). Its a good read and nothing more.

By the way, here's the abstract for the [I]Sporting News [/I]story about K.J. possibly surpassing Magic by 1991:

[B]Changing of the Guard
McManis, Sam. Sporting News. St. Louis: Feb 11, 1991. Vol. 211, Iss. 6; pg. 6
Abstract (Summary)
Earvin "Magic" Johnson has been named the NBA's Most Valuable Player for the last two seasons, but now Kevin Johnson, point guard for the Phoenix Suns, may supplant Magic as the best player on the court.[/B]

Do I agree with that analysis? Not necessarily, but that viewpoint should be viewed just as (if not more) seriously as a marketing stunt like that top-fifty list.

Thats strange KBlaze, you care a lot what the 50 greatest Player Voters say, however, you don't care about the people that say KJ is great.

Strange...

Caring about some, yet not caring about others....strange...

After a quick scan I see about 20 paragraphs on this issue directed to me. Im just not up to responding to 20 more paragraphs worth of information. Especially considering the fact there is no chance of changing anyones mind and the only people who consider KJ this high have to have a level of bias impossible to really do anything with. Some people rank Kobe top 20, some Dirk, some Nash, and some want to throw KJ higher than can be justified. I suppose KJ just isnt so often discussed that ive come to ignore the arguments like those other guys.

I like the guy. Decided he needed a little attention and praise since hes often underrated or flat out forgotten. But a 10 page 20 paragraph at a time argument on something maybe .01 percent of the basketball world would ever believe anyway?

That would take me caring waaaaaaaay more than I do about the issue. And I dont feel like getting to the point KJ annoys me because of people overrating him(like Dirk, Kobe, nash, and a few others have reached now and then). Carry on.....

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Let me see if I understand...because someone somewhere believed it I should consider it a widespread opinion? Or important? SI ranked Terrell Brandon as the best point in the league over Kidd and Payton at one point. just last year there were huge discussions on if Arenas was better than Kobe or not. Shaq has said AI is one of the 5 greatest players of all time. Kareem said Earl the goat was the best player he ever saw. Wilt chamberlain ranked harlem globetrotter teammate Meadowlark Lemon as a starter on his all time team with Michael Jordan as the 6th man. Barkley said Mchale was the best player he ever played against yet I notice people dont rank him over Malone and Duncan. Bird said Dennis Johnson was the best player he ever played with yet it seems most give Mchale and Parish more credit. Magic Johnson said Michael Ray Richardson was the best player he ever played against at one point in the 80s.

Point? anyone dedicated enough to find articles from years past or looking just to find someone propping a guy up is probably gonna get a lot of crazy things in the process. The mere fact that someone says something doesnt make it true or even credible. Hell it doesnt even always mean they believe it since so many people will later contradict themselves.

Some old article where a reporter makes a statement is of no importance to me. I didnt mention the players, media, and coaches votes to say they are infallible. I mentioned them because you quoted some of the people who voted on the top 50 list so I mentioned the list to show that it doesnt seem many of those types did consider Kevin so good.

You clearly have a thing with Kevin Johnson and probably articles saved in some little folder for the express purpose of defending or propping him up at every chance. Those types who go to those lengths just dont change theirs minds or begin to see things the way the rest of the world do. So I have no intention of changing your opinion(or belief that I could).

But quotes just dont do much. Any great player has people spouting hyperboles and media members writing articles. Because you have a KJ thing and therefore keep track of it doesnt mean hes the only one it exists for.

Common sense it all it takes to tell Magic was flat better than Kevin Johnson and that Isiah historically is on another level. As I said earlier it takes too many conflicting points to put him over this level of guys or even equal to them.

The quotes just dont matter much. making my Tim Hardaway video a while back an old NBA action episode had similar comments about him. Magic calling him unstoppable, Isiah talking about how great he is, Don Nelson comparing him to super heroes, and all that. Its what people do when great players come up.....exaggerate.

If someone in 15 years posts articles including the greatest praise ever lavished upon Tracy Mcgrady, Chris Webber, and Gilbert Arenas im sure people would oooo and aaah if they were the types to be impressed by such things. Ato ne time or another ive seen Tmac=Jordan articles, Webber>Duncan articles, and Arenas>Kobes ones too.

Doesnt make them accurate nor doesnt it mean the majority of the fanbase believed it at the time. Just means someone might.

I dont care what Michael Wilbon thinks on Isiah/KJ more than what he thought on Wade/Duncan(he ranked Wade as the best player in the league for some time). Its a good read and nothing more.[/QUOTE]

Hey, I fully agree with your about Terrell Brandon on the cover of [I]S.I.[/I] (although that judgment was based on a completely contrived ratings system rather than real intellectual analysis), and I agree that Magic was superior to K.J. (I never said anything different, except that they were rivals late in Magic's career), but now you're just being hypocritical. On the one hand, you cite MVP awards and top-fifty lists that are determined by writers like Michael Wilbon, but then you censure those same writers when they produce judgments that you don't care for. You can't have it both ways, clinging to journalistic observations when they match your tastes but derideing them when they contradict your deductive notions. That was my point, to show you that such standards break both ways and also to reveal that people back then did consider K.J. a rival of Magic/Thomas/Stockton, and not just Hardaway/Mullin. But most of all, the statistical evidence supports many of those observations.

And, no, I don't have any articles stored up. I just find them and post the quotes.

(By the way, Wilbon wasn't the only one saying that K.J. was better than Thomas at that time. I also quoted another writer, Randy Harvey, and look at the All-NBA Teams, determined by writers. Look at the statistics, too.)

If I really thought that K.J. was on Magic's historical plane, then I would put him in the top-ten all-time. Instead, I'm thinking 26-40, so I'm hardly delusional. But at one point, yes, they were rivals of a stripe and they went toe-to-toe at the top of the Western Conference, with each winning a series from the other and posting highly similar numbers.

[QUOTE]Thats strange KBlaze, you care a lot what the 50 greatest Player Voters say, however, you don't care about the people that say KJ is great.

Strange...

Caring about some, yet not caring about others....strange...[/QUOTE]

Not really. I dont even think the top 50 was exactly accurate and ive said already id take him over a few guys on the list(Pistol Pete and Cousy for examples). I explained the top 50 list mention already. Just went to show that even if a select number of guys choose to rank KJ very high it either wasnt enough of them to matter in voting or those who said it then had changed their minds by the time they voted(a few guys he mentioned were on the voting panel).

Nobody has ever seen me say the top 50 list was 100% accurate. However....nobody on the list off the top of my head just pales in comparison to Kevin Johnson unless youre the "Everyone in the 50s sucked" type. Well actually I think Cousy is far below KJ but...thats a whole other discussion.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]I doubt Rod Strickland was around the time where Jordan, Drexler, Magic, Isiah, Stockton, and more were all around their primes/peaks.

There is a huge difference.



I remember you saying Gary Payton is a better 90s PG than Kevin Johnson. I am a huge Gary Payton fan, but I think there is another place you underrate Kevin Johnson. Even though I am a big Payton fan, I'd put KJ over Payton in the 90s anyday.

The problem is, your just underrating KJ a bit.

The 90s PG goes:

Stockton
Kevin Johnson
Gary Payton[/QUOTE]
I remember that thread, I did it about 2-3 months or so ago.


KJ's best seasons (stat wise anyway) were 88-89 and 89-90, so those I considered 1980's seasons. GP's best seaons' were probally in the early part of this decade (stat wise). Looking back at it now, it's a tough choice to make as to who had the best career in the 90's out of the two. GP has way more awards and what not like All-Star games/All-NBA Games/All-D teams .

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]After a quick scan I see about 20 paragraphs on this issue directed to me. Im just not up to responding to 20 more paragraphs worth of information. Especially considering the fact there is no chance of changing anyones mind and the only people who consider KJ this high have to have a level of bias impossible to really do anything with. Some people rank Kobe top 20, some Dirk, some Nash, and some want to throw KJ higher than can be justified. I suppose KJ just isnt so often discussed that ive come to ignore the arguments like those other guys.

I like the guy. Decided he needed a little attention and praise since hes often underrated or flat out forgotten. But a 10 page 20 paragraph at a time argument on something maybe .01 percent of the basketball world would ever believe anyway?

That would take me caring waaaaaaaay more than I do about the issue. And I dont feel like getting to the point KJ annoys me because of people overrating him(like Dirk, Kobe, nash, and a few others have reached now and then). Carry on.....[/QUOTE]

The December 2006 edition of [I]SLAM[/I] magazine stated that K.J. might be the most underrated player of his era. He's extremely underrated, not overrated.

Hey, you jumped all over me just because I suggested that one could start considering K.J. in the twenties. That's all I said, and your went nuts with it, when I'm just saying that that's where I'd start to look at many of the great point guards after Magic and Oscar. What's wrong with that, especially after I carefully support my arguments and don't comply with the brainwashing of the mainstream media?

[QUOTE=Glove_20]Thats strange KBlaze, you care a lot what the 50 greatest Player Voters say, however, you don't care about the people that say KJ is great.

Strange...

Caring about some, yet not caring about others....strange...[/QUOTE]


It's not a sign you won the argument, you guys were just more persistent.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Not really. I dont even think the top 50 was exactly accurate and ive said already id take him over a few guys on the list(Pistol Pete and Cousy for examples). I explained the top 50 list mention already. Just went to show that even if a select number of guys choose to rank KJ very high it either wasnt enough of them to matter in voting or those who said it then had changed their minds by the time they voted(a few guys he mentioned were on the voting panel).

Nobody has ever seen me say the top 50 list was 100% accurate. However....nobody on the list off the top of my head just pales in comparison to Kevin Johnson unless youre the "Everyone in the 50s sucked" type. Well actually I think Cousy is far below KJ but...thats a whole other discussion.[/QUOTE]

And I'm not saying that they paled in comparison next to K.J., either, but don't you realize that there's room for differing opinions? Don't you realize that the top-fifty list was a promotional venture, not a scholarly study? How do you explain Shaq there after just four years in the NBA?

And doesn't your point about Cousy prove my point about making objective judgments rather than just following the conventional mythology? Why is it that you make an exception for Cousy but no one else? Couldn't that pattern hold up elsewhere, not with everyone or even the majority but quite a few others?

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I remember that thread, I did it about 2-3 months or so ago.


KJ's best seasons (stat wise anyway) were 88-89 and 89-90, so those I considered 1980's seasons. GP's best seaons' were probally in the early part of this decade (stat wise). Looking back at it now, it's a tough choice to make as to who had the best career in the 90's out of the two. GP has way more awards and what not like All-Star games/All-NBA Games/All-D teams .[/QUOTE]

'89-'90 is considered the "1990 season," which means the nineties. Anyway, K.J.'s best statistical season might have actually been '91, when he shot a career-high .516 from the field and averaged a career-high 2.1 steals, in addition to 22.2 points (his second-highest scoring average) and 10.1 assists. That year, K.J. became the only player in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, a .500 field goal percentage, and 2.0 steals in one season.

And again, Kblaze, as I noted, I actually agreed with most and possibly all of those guys that you listed who you would place above K.J.! In many ways, we're on the same page, and yet you chose to censure me just because I casually stated that I'd start considering K.J. in the twenties-range.

[QUOTE=GMATCallahan][B]'89-'90 is considered the "1990 season," which means the nineties.[/B] Anyway, K.J.'s best statistical season might have actually been '91, when he shot a career-high .516 from the field and averaged a career-high 2.1 steals, in addition to 22.2 points (his second-highest scoring average) and 10.1 assists. That year, K.J. became the only player in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, a .500 field goal percentage, and 2.0 steals in one season.[/QUOTE]
LOL, sure is.