Jokic is the 4th best player of all time

[QUOTE=tpols;14984737]Nah I really think he's the GOAT. I want to see him play with a superstar sidekick though. Every other great player nowadays and even in the past got to play on loaded teams. Imagine if Jokic got to play with prime Penny, Kobe, and Wade like Shaq did instead of just jamal Murray whose a pipsqueak version of those guys. It would be an avalanche for Yolk.[/QUOTE]
Jokic has had plenty of help lmao. Murray has series better than Penny has ever had (tempted to say Kobe too because of efficiency).

The championship nuggets had 6 guys average double figures. Murray outscored Jokic in half the series they played while averaging 47/40/93 shooting splits:oldlol:

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984734][B]You can't make an argument for anyone besides Kareem/MJ/Lebron to be ahead of peak Jokic. [/B]This isn't a short peak either, we are on 5 years of absurd dominance. Jokic simply has had WAY less help than Kareem/MJ/Lebron, which isn't debatable.[/QUOTE]

Yes you can. Bird.

[QUOTE=Full Court;14984915]Yes you can. Bird.[/QUOTE]

No, not at all

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14984871]RRR3's not lying that you sound like a young casual fan with posts like this :lol

What Hakeem did in '94 & '95, carrying one of the weakest championship rosters ever in '94, beating Malone/Stockton, Barkley/KJ, Robinson/Rodman & Shaq/Penny all on the road in '95, eviscerating Ewing & Robinson h2h, and winning MVP & DPOY absolutely puts him in argument with Jokic if we're talking strictly peaks. Not even LeBron & Jordan are clearly above that.[/QUOTE]
Yeah seriously, Hakeem won with Otis ****ing Thorpe as his number two. Thorpe was a fine player but hardly a championship number two, and the rest of the roster was really weak as well. Robert Horry was a major option on offense, and he was pretty much a spot up shooter for the rest of his career on title teams.

94 is one of the all time carry jobs, I can admit he had more help in 95 with Drexler though.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984884]Jokic has already surpassed Hakeem. Jokic is > Bird, so if you want to argue Hakeem > Jokic, then you have to argue Hakeem > Bird.

2025 Jokic's career at this point is basically where Lebron's career was in 2013 (before the playoffs).

No one was arguing Hakeem > Lebron by 2013.[/QUOTE]
This is Jokic's 10th season. Hakeem played 18, and was elite for most of them. Even if Jokic is better in your opinion, he'd have to have been WAY better to pass Hakeem while playing so much less.

Stop posting buzzfeed tier bait.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14984936]This is Jokic's 10th season. Hakeem played 18, and was elite for most of them. Even if Jokic is better in your opinion, he'd have to have been WAY better to pass Hakeem while playing so much less.

Stop posting buzzfeed tier bait.[/QUOTE]

Jokic IS WAY BETTER. What are you not understanding? Jokic is number 1 all time is a ton of advanced stats. Literally NUMBER ONE ahead of MJ/Lebron.

Jokic is 29 years old. At 29, MJ/Lebron were already ahead of Hakeem all time. Jokic doesn't need to play more, he's already passed Hakeem :lol

MJ age 21-29: 29.8 PER, 58.9 TS%, .276 WS/48, 10.9 BPM

Lebron age 21-29: 29.2 PER, 59.4 TS%, .268 WS/48, 10.2 BPM

Jokic age 21-29: 29 PER, 64.1 TS%, .266 WS/48, 10.8 BPM

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984938]Jokic IS WAY BETTER. What are you not understanding? Jokic is number 1 all time is a ton of advanced stats. Literally NUMBER ONE ahead of MJ/Lebron.

Jokic is 29 years old. At 29, MJ/Lebron were already ahead of Hakeem all time. Jokic doesn't need to play more, he's already passed Hakeem :lol

MJ age 21-29: 29.8 PER, 58.9 TS%, .276 WS/48, 10.9 BPM

Lebron age 21-29: 29.2 PER, 59.4 TS%, .268 WS/48, 10.2 BPM

Jokic age 21-29: 29 PER, 64.1 TS%, .266 WS/48, 10.8 BPM[/QUOTE]
None of those stats measure defense even half decently, we know Jokic is better than Hakeem on offense already :hammerhead:

[QUOTE=RRR3;14984939]None of those stats measure defense even half decently, we know Jokic is better than Hakeem on offense already :hammerhead:[/QUOTE]

Defense doesn't make up for the gap everywhere else compared to Jokic. Seriously, so many people have Magic Johnson as a top five player of all time. Magic's defense wasn't any better than Jokic, and Magic played on WAY more stacked teams.

Being good at defense is NOT a requirement for being a top 5 player of all time.

Hakeem isn't even a top 10 player of all time so it's hilarious that you are pushing so hard against this.

Let's go ahead and see your top 10 players of all time.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984941]Defense doesn't make up for the gap everywhere else compared to Jokic. Seriously, so many people have Magic Johnson as a top five player of all time. Magic's defense wasn't any better than Jokic, and Magic played on WAY more stacked teams.

Being good at defense is NOT a requirement for being a top 5 player of all time.

Hakeem isn't even a top 10 player of all time so it's hilarious that you are pushing so hard against this.[/QUOTE]
Being good at defense is a lot more important when you play CENTER, StrongBuzzfeed

[QUOTE=RRR3;14984942]Being good at defense is a lot more important when you play CENTER, StrongBuzzfeed[/QUOTE]

List your top ten all time so I know what kind of stupid I am dealing with here.

Hakeem had an amazing peak and is probably the best defensive player since the merger, but tontoz is right that he had some issues with consistency. It seemed like he kinda regressed as a player during the early 90's then came back and played out of his mind from '93-'95. He is a player that gets judged mostly by his peak (which is amazing), while fans ignore that there was a 5 year period where he couldn't get out of the first round, even missing the playoffs in '92.

As far as who had the better peak, I think it's about preference and you could make a great case for both.

I would take Jokic's peak over the peak of guys like Magic, Curry, Kobe, & Bird. Some fans still don't want to accept this yet, but it's the truth.

Why say “I would take his peak” then end it with it’s the truth? You stay trying to convince people your opinion is a fact. You can’t help yourself. It’s hilarious.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984941]Defense doesn't make up for the gap everywhere else compared to Jokic. Seriously, so many people have Magic Johnson as a top five player of all time. Magic's defense wasn't any better than Jokic, and Magic played on WAY more stacked teams.

Being good at defense is NOT a requirement for being a top 5 player of all time.

Hakeem isn't even a top 10 player of all time so it's hilarious that you are pushing so hard against this.

Let's go ahead and see your top 10 players of all time.[/QUOTE]
Magic led the league in steals early in his career.
He was as lethal a competitor as anybody you can name, he just did it with a smile. Bird knew that.
He spent 75% of his career in the Finals. Literally NO player has ever done what he did in the Finals his rookie year.
People have him in the top 5 because he is. If not for the HIV he would be in the GOAT conversation.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984867]He would need to be with great offensive players to have a great offense. That never happened in the players'primes. But no one is saying that olajuwon is just as good as an overall offensive player. Just that he is a great offensive player along with being one of the greatest defensive players of all time. And yes, defense does matter.[/QUOTE]

Who are the great offensive players Jokic is playing with? They fit well as a team, but only because Jokic is there. With Jokic playing, their offensive rating is the best in the league. When Jokic sits, there offensively rating is the worst in the league.

I find Jokic's and Hakeem's careers somewhat similar in that they spent huge chunks of their prime stuck with a shit sandwich in terms of help. Jokic actually probably has better talent on paper but Murray's injuries in 2021 and 2022 took the Nuggets straight out of contention. Currently in this moment, I'd have Hakeem above Jokic because his prime has been much longer but assuming Jokic has another few prime years they'll be neck and neck on my all time list. In other words, Jokic will enter that tier.