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[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]do care to explain or just gonna troll?
really not sure why this subject would upset anyone this much...I take it you are a proud atheist who is offended at the idea you might be wrong or something? Or maybe you're just a child who got picked on too much today?[/QUOTE]
Not gonna explain to a mental midget. Takes too much time
[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]here is a study...er I mean a gathering of what they say about "religion":
[url]http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research06.html[/url]
you should read it...regardless of weather or not it meets the criteria to be a 'study'[/QUOTE]
I don't know what you expect me to do with that? It is just line after line of quotes that are not backed up by anything at all. Some of them are even bible quotes lol..
[QUOTE=miller-time]Can you demonstrate that? I think it would be safe to assume that not everyone who has had NDE has come forward and of that group it is possible that not all of them have believed it. Possible, but you could be right. We don't know.[/QUOTE]
I've been reading up on this subject for years now, this thread is old a fck...I have yet to see ONE case of someone who questioned it...everything they say is the opposite of that. The only way I can see it happening is if someone thought they had one but didn't really and reported it as one.
if you could dig up just ONE example it would be the first I have seen.
[QUOTE=miller-time]What they think they know and what they do know are two completely separate things. There is no evidence yet that what they believe is true. Only that their experiences have a profound effect on them.[/QUOTE]
agreed...but don't you think it is eye opening that all of them think they KNOW? Why is it so hard to just listen to what they are saying and believe it? These people clearly aren't nut cases they are normal everyday people.
[QUOTE=miller-time]I don't even know where to begin with that.[B] It is likely I might respond that way[/B], but it is not definitely 100%.[/QUOTE]
I would say it is 100%, but I am happy you understand that it is 'likely'
[QUOTE=miller-time]I don't know what you expect me to do with that? It is just line after line of quotes that are not backed up by anything at all. Some of them are even bible quotes lol..[/QUOTE]
yeah like eye witness testimony that a judge would see in court...only by thousands
why do you think it isn't significant?
doctors and scientists alike view NDEs as a very real occurance...what these people say is important in this topic
[QUOTE]I've been reading up on this subject for years now, this thread is old a fck...I have yet to see ONE case of someone who questioned it...everything they say is the opposite of that. The only way I can see it happening is if someone thought they had one but didn't really and reported it as one.
if you could dig up just ONE example it would be the first I have seen.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://wendythomasrussell.com/a-nonbelievers-near-death-experience/"]A Non Believers Near Death Experience[/URL]
i found it by typing into google "near death experience non believer"
does that count primetime? seeing lights and tunnels, a vivid image of your friend's and family's feet as they attend your funeral? or do you have to see like your mother cradling a long lost sister cradled in her arms or who wins the superbowl in 2014?
[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]yeah like eye witness testimony that a judge would see in court...only by thousands
why do you think it isn't significant?[/quote]
Because there has been no cross examination of the claims. And the very way the claims are put out makes me skeptical because it isn't unlike how young earth creationists or truthers put out their claims. I am not saying that makes them wrong or insignificant, but when people throw out large chunks of various information like that it makes it seem more like they are trying to prove a point rather than explore or discuss it. A wall of quotes is more like an overwhelming scattershot rather than a succinct and measured delivery of information.
[quote]doctors and scientists alike view NDEs as a very real occurance...what these people say is important in this topic[/QUOTE]
That all depends on the doctor or scientist in question (and their research methodology). Being a doctor doesn't make you objective, infallible, or incorruptible.
[QUOTE=RidonKs][URL="http://wendythomasrussell.com/a-nonbelievers-near-death-experience/"]A Non Believers Near Death Experience[/URL]
i found it by typing into google "near death experience non believer"
does that count primetime? seeing lights and tunnels, a vivid image of your friend's and family's feet as they attend your funeral? or do you have to see like your mother cradling a long lost sister cradled in her arms or who wins the superbowl in 2014?[/QUOTE]
you misunderstood...hundreds and thousands of athesits (non-believers) have had NDEs and come back theist (believers)
I am saying I have never once encountered a atheist have an NDE and come back saying "eh, that was probably just a brain trip, I'm still atheist"...ALL OF THEM, 100% come back thinking it was a real experience and not brain created.
and the vast majority of them are completely different as humans when they come back, end up being huge into charity and take on different personalities etc,...
[QUOTE=miller-time]Because there has been no cross examination of the claims. And the very way the claims are put out makes me skeptical because it isn't unlike how young earth creationists or truthers put out their claims. I am not saying that makes them wrong or insignificant, but when people throw out large chunks of various information like that it makes it seem more like they are trying to prove a point rather than explore or discuss it. A wall of quotes is more like an overwhelming scattershot rather than a succinct and measured delivery of information. [/QUOTE]
you can cross examine their claims yourself though...I think the reason why some of what they say seems to come off different is because a lot of what they experience they claim is extremely difficult to put into words or express...they are in a different dimension where "time" doesn't exist that is very unlike this universe. The neurosurgeon even expressed that saying "I read what so and so wrote after having one and I couldn't really comprehend what they were trying to get across but now I understand completely what they felt"...
[QUOTE=miller-time]That all depends on the doctor or scientist in question (and their research methodology). Being a doctor doesn't make you objective, infallible, or incorruptible.[/QUOTE]
I have yet to see one say they don't really happen...regardless of what they think causes them, all of them that I have seen don't think these people are lying...they accept that it is a real occurrence
Miller do you believe that there is life on other planets? if so why when there is no scientific proof of it?
see how that works?
[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]you can cross examine their claims yourself though...I think the reason why some of what they say seems to come off different is because a lot of what they experience they claim is extremely difficult to put into words or express...they are in a different dimension where "time" doesn't exist that is very unlike this universe. The neurosurgeon even expressed that saying "I read what so and so wrote after having one and I couldn't really comprehend what they were trying to get across but now I understand completely what they felt"...[/quote]
First of all the scattershot format makes it incredibly difficult and tedious to examine. Additionally a lot if not all of these quotes are far removed from the original source. This is not how studies are done. Whether you accept NDEs or not if you are presenting case studies you need to put in the work yourself. You can't just say "Joe said x, y, z" and "Phil said x, y, z" and then conclude they are telling the truth.
[quote]I have yet to see one say they don't really happen...regardless of what they think causes them, all of them that I have seen don't think these people are lying...they accept that it is a real occurrence[/QUOTE]
The phenomena is happening, no one is debating that. The debate is whether they are metaphysical or natural.
[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]Miller do you believe that there is life on other planets? if so why when there is no scientific proof of it?
see how that works?[/QUOTE]
No I don't see how it works. I believe that there is a high probability for the existence of life elsewhere in the universe because 1. We know life exists in the universe and 2. We know life can exist under all sorts of conditions (some bacteria can even live in space). But I don't believe in any particular life form existing right now, not until I see evidence of their actual or historical existence. Whether it is simple like a bacterium or complex like a human I accept it is possible but not that they are.
[QUOTE=miller-time]First of all the scattershot format makes it incredibly difficult and tedious to examine. Additionally a lot if not all of these quotes are far removed from the original source. This is not how studies are done. Whether you accept NDEs or not if you are presenting case studies you need to put in the work yourself. [B]You can't just say "Joe said x, y, z" and "Phil said x, y, z" and then conclude they are telling the truth[/B].[/QUOTE]
You can't conclude as 'scientific fact' but that is what would happen in a court room though...Joe saw Bill kill the woman and Phil saw Bill kill the woman?...therefor Bill must have killed the woman
[QUOTE=miller-time]The phenomena is happening, no one is debating that. The debate is whether they are metaphysical or natural.[/QUOTE]
there is no 'proof' the phenomena is happening yet we know they are you say? that can only mean that we are accepting what these people are saying and trusting it based on the fact thousands are saying very similar things.
[QUOTE=miller-time]No I don't see how it works. I believe that there is a high probability for the existence of life elsewhere in the universe because 1. We know life exists in the universe and 2. We know life can exist under all sorts of conditions (some bacteria can even live in space). But I don't believe in any particular life form existing right now, not until I see evidence of their actual or historical existence. Whether it is simple like a bacterium or complex like a human I accept it is possible but not that they are.[/QUOTE]
I also believe the odds of life outside our own planet are high for similar reasons as yourself as well as dimensions outside of our own 3D universe...yet there is no proof for either
[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]You can't conclude as 'scientific fact' but that is what would happen in a court room though...Joe saw Bill kill the woman and Phil saw Bill kill the woman?...therefor Bill must have killed the woman[/QUOTE]
Bill needs to have his own defense though. Joe and Phil could have mistaken Tim for Bill.
[QUOTE]there is no 'proof' the phenomena is happening yet we know they are you say? that can only mean that we are accepting what these people are saying and trusting it based on the fact thousands are saying very similar things.[/QUOTE]
I'm willing to accept that something is happening based on their claims. Whether they are completely delusional or are experiencing the supernatural I don't know. But I think it is safe to assume they aren't all making it up (individually) and aren't in on a hoax (together). That is also possible, but it seems a bit too complex of an explanation (especially in dealing with human behavior). If that were the case then we would be looking at an entirely new area of social psychology.
[QUOTE]I also believe the odds of life outside our own planet are high for similar reasons as yourself as well as dimensions outside of our own 3D universe...yet there is no proof for either[/QUOTE]
I forgot to factor in the size of the universe - which is why I think there is a high probability for life elsewhere.
[QUOTE=miller-time]Bill needs to have his own defense though. Joe and Phil could have mistaken Tim for Bill.[/QUOTE]
If the defense was [I]"those people's word is not scientific fact your honor, perhaps they are all wrong" [/I], it would be too bad for Bill
[QUOTE=miller-time]I'm willing to accept that something is happening based on their claims. Whether they are completely delusional or are experiencing the supernatural I don't know. But I think it is safe to assume they aren't all making it up (individually) and aren't in on a hoax (together). That is also possible, but it seems a bit too complex of an explanation (especially in dealing with human behavior). If that were the case then we would be looking at an entirely new area of social psychology.[/QUOTE]
okay good...we agree that not only is 'something' happening but also that these people believe the 'something' is very real, and ALSO that this 'something' has very similar features to it by the vast majority of the people that it happens to.
that's a good starting point at least
[QUOTE=miller-time]I forgot to factor in the size of the universe - which is why I think there is a high probability for life elsewhere.[/QUOTE]
I have similar reasons to think a high probability of other dimensions exist...
[QUOTE=-primetime-]These people are not liars...not all of them anyway...there is no way
[/QUOTE]
So you also believe in aliens abductions right?
[QUOTE=Blue&Orange]So you also believe in aliens abductions right?[/QUOTE]
Again to have an NDE you have to have DIED!
Any fool can claim they were abducted by aliens...however I don't rule out some of them as truth.